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Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment?

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Jim_n_La

Aug 18, 08 15:27

Post #1 of 74 (515 views)

Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment?	Can't Post

Bear with me here, a couple of spinoffs from the saddleback forum, not sure they go together but...

(1) Nicolle wallace, mccain spokeswoman, argued yesterday, "the insinuation from the obama campaign that john mccain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

(2) Andrew Sullivan (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish) has endeavored to verify McCain's 'cross in the dirt story' which McCain recounted in the saddleback forum.

The 'cross in the dirt' story (if you're not familiar with it) has to do with a sympathetic vietnamese guard drawing a cross in the dirt of McCain's cell as an act of christian solidarity on Christmas eve. The problem with the story is it became the 'cross in the dirt' story in his 1999 'Faith of my fathers', apparently the cross was not mentioned in his 1973 account of his imprisonment. Here's a snip from the '73 account which is somewhat similar but no cross...

I had the singular misfortune to get caught communicating four times in the month of May of 1969. They had a punishment room right across the courtyard from my cell, and I ended up spending a lot of time over there.

It was also in May, 1969, that they wanted me to write�as I remember�a letter to U. S. pilots who were flying over North Vietnam asking them not to do it. I was being forced to stand up continuously�sometimes they'd make you stand up or sit on a stool for a long period of time. I'd stood up for a couple of days, with a respite only because one of the guards � the only real human being that I ever met over there � let me lie down for a couple of hours while he was on watch the middle of one night.

My comments in no particular order: First, it's tough (and rightly so) to question the veracity of McCain (his '73 account is compelling reading). However it really seems unlikely that he'd forget the cross thing. My first thought is 'okay these war stories get better with age', circumstantially this seems to be true. But he did posit this as an example of his faith. Further, let's say you had the guts to question McCain on the truthyness of the story, could he invoke the pow's never cheat/lie (see #1 above) rule. On the other hand his campaign has been very adept at 'playing' the pow/war hero card but somehow continually reminding people of his pow/war hero status.

My gut tells me this is just a curiosity that will fade as things get more substantive after Labor Day. Here's hoping.

Jim_n_La
...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but only until it kills you - Cousin Elwood

parkito

Aug 18, 08 15:44

Post #2 of 74 (506 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lots of possibilities as you mention, but one thing I find everytime I write a long race report is, even though I spend several days mulling over what to put in and remembering what happened when, I always manage to forget something that I considered important. It often happens when you get on a track of a particular story and then either plain forget, or you can't weave in the other thing you wanted to add. This scenario should be less likely to happen when writing a book, however, OTOH, books usually entail editors who can make changes as well for entirely unrelated reasons.

Bottom line, 40 years later, hard to ever know for sure.

Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

mcdoublee

Aug 18, 08 16:22

Post #3 of 74 (492 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

(1) Nicolle wallace, mccain spokeswoman, argued yesterday, "the insinuation from the obama campaign that john mccain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

This response borders on self-parody. Seriously, this is the kind of thing Colbert would say in response to any fill in the blank attack. Being a POW had absolutely nothing to do with the context of the original question/situation. It was a response to the insinuation (probably floated by Obama campaign officials) that McCain was not wearing an isolation hat (or something) and could have possibly heard some of the questions before it was his turn on stage.

Now, I don't know or even care about alleged "cheating" in the whatever you call this thing. To me it's as much a non-issue as the inconsistencies pointed out in his cross in the dirt story. That response from Nicole Wallace, though, is so dumb it makes my head hurt.

------------------------------------
MC Double E

dave_w

Aug 18, 08 16:24

Post #4 of 74 (490 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I didn't know that Sullivan had tried to validate the story, but I wish he had. The cross in the dirt thing just plays too well, and is soooo right out of New Testament times, that it almost bothered me to hear it. Oh well, like Parkito said, 40 years on, I doubt there'll be any rebuttal.

"It's all about self-esteem"

vitus979

Aug 18, 08 16:30

Post #5 of 74 (487 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What?! Intrepid reporter Andrew Sullivan couldn't confirm an event that is supposed to have happened in a North Vietnamese prison camp almost 40 years ago?!

I'm shocked. Surely if it had actually happened, Andrew Sullivan would be able to confirm it. Surely there's a paper trail. Surely there's archeological evidence. Surely there must be corroborating accounts.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

sphere

Aug 18, 08 18:46

Post #6 of 74 (464 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

(1) Nicolle wallace, mccain spokeswoman, argued yesterday, "the insinuation from the obama campaign that john mccain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

<Insert comment regarding marriage #1 here>

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

sphere

Aug 18, 08 19:30

Post #7 of 74 (454 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK, but let's not pretend that candidates don't bend their stories to ingratiate themselves to the present company. McCain has done this in the past, changing the names of the linemen he named to the Viet Cong from the Minnesota Vikings (true, according to his autobio) to the Pittsburgh Steelers, when campaigning in Pennsylvania, for example. It appears he applied the same tailored treatment here.

If you watched the video I linked, you'll note how he pointedly added a post script to the story about how it was only through prayer that he survived the ordeal. He understood his audience and he knew what they were listening for. Well done.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

vitus979

Aug 18, 08 20:24

Post #8 of 74 (447 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you watched the video I linked, you'll note how he pointedly added a post script to the story about how it was only through prayer that he survived the ordeal. He understood his audience and he knew what they were listening for. Well done.

I think that not only has that been something that McCain has consistently said, it's a sentiment that many of his fellow POWs have expressed over and over again.

It appears he applied the same tailored treatment here.

I am sorry, I am just not seeing that. At all.

I'll tell you something else, too: As far as I'm concerned, the story of McCain's captivity is sacrosancnt and inviolate. It is not a proper or sufficient answer to questions about whether or not he cheated in a debate, or whatever. But if some puke like Andrew Sullivan is going to question details of McCain's captivity, and insinuate that he's lying about it, he damn well better have a hell of a lot more evidence than, "It just sounds too good to be true to me." Because when I'm trying to decide who's more credible, the guy who I know willingly gave up years of his life being tortured in service of his country and in union with his fellow prisoners, or some puke who just isn't grooving on some detail of that experience four decades later . . . I'm going to go with the hero every single time. Every. Single. Time.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Mike Lamb

Aug 18, 08 21:19

Post #9 of 74 (428 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why is it illegitimate to even inquire about it?

f/k/a mclamb6

Monk

Aug 18, 08 21:39

Post #10 of 74 (423 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Mike Lamb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Why is it illegitimate to even inquire about it?

I thought he was in Cambodia on a swiftboat that Christmas!

(This post was edited by Monk on Aug 18, 08 21:40)

el fuser

Aug 19, 08 3:00

Post #11 of 74 (406 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

(1) Nicolle wallace, mccain spokeswoman, argued yesterday, "the insinuation from the obama campaign that john mccain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

<Insert comment regarding marriage #1 here>

ding! ding! ding!

sphere

Aug 19, 08 5:52

Post #12 of 74 (375 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [el fuser] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm guessing Nicolle Wallace will be choosing her words more carefully in the future.

Nevermind the irony of the defense itself, considering how McCain and his fellow prisoners devised a secret method of communication while being kept in isolation by the VC.

Apples and oranges, I know, but still somewhat ironic that she would use his POW status as a defense in this context.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

TonyV

Aug 19, 08 7:47

Post #13 of 74 (336 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Jim_n_La] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The "cross in the dirt" story is lifted straight out of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book "The Gulag Archipelago". The book describes life in Soviet labor camps in Stalinist Russia. Solzhenitsyn witnessed this incident in the 1950's.

I used to respect John McCain, but this is a blatant lie. Shame on him.....this is a lot worse than Hillary's "misremembering" the Belgrade experience, which at least had some basis in reality.

ChiTownJack

Aug 19, 08 7:58

Post #14 of 74 (331 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [TonyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

also told in a Chuck Colsen (born again Christian) book - but it happened to Solzhenitsyn.

JSA

Aug 19, 08 8:45

Post #15 of 74 (311 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Surely there's a paper trail. Surely there's archeological evidence. Surely there must be corroborating accounts.

I think Dan Rather has some documentation that should clear up the matter ...

_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!

old-as-dirt

Aug 19, 08 8:56

Post #16 of 74 (302 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't buy the McCain christian bullshit either.

So before the war he was a hard drinking hard partying chick magnet, and then he gets shot down and has a road to Damascus conversion?

I think his road to Damascus moment happened when he decided to run for President and needed the bible thumper vote.

unstable and unable --- mccain and palin 2008

Brick

Aug 19, 08 9:03

Post #17 of 74 (297 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

So before the war he was a hard drinking hard partying chick magnet

Never met an Episcopalian have you? Whenever three or more are gathered, there's a fifth.

Henry the VIII was the first Anglican.

Many men have found Jesus in a foxhole ... not to mention a POW camp.

sorelian

Aug 19, 08 9:03

Post #18 of 74 (296 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think his road to Damascus moment happened when he decided to run for President and needed the bible thumper vote.

Come now, why so cynical?...he would never be caught dead slurping at the teet of the "agents of intolerance," certainly he would never sacrifice his values just to win an election...

That wouldn't be very Goldwater like of him now would it!

--------------
Pass the weak, hurdle the dead.

old-as-dirt

Aug 19, 08 9:09

Post #19 of 74 (285 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [Brick] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So before the war he was a hard drinking hard partying chick magnet

Never met an Episcopalian have you? Whenever three or more are gathered, there's a fifth.

Henry the VIII was the first Anglican.

Many men have found Jesus in a foxhole ... not to mention a POW camp.

I thought he was a Baptist? it polls better ya know.

unstable and unable --- mccain and palin 2008

sphere

Aug 19, 08 9:14

Post #20 of 74 (275 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [TonyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The "cross in the dirt" story is lifted straight out of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book "The Gulag Archipelago". The book describes life in Soviet labor camps in Stalinist Russia. Solzhenitsyn witnessed this incident in the 1950's.

If true, this means either Senator McCain is unable to separate personal experience from the reports of others'; is willing to fabricate details of his time in captivity in an attempt to score political points; or has, four decades later, remembered (or, for the first time, apparently, decided to tell the story of) what would be considered an unforgettable moment he shared with one of his captors, that just happened to mirror Solzhenitsyn's experience.

I sincerely hope the latter is true, given the implications. I share vitus' opinion on the sacrosanctity of the experience, and it would greatly change my opinion of him if he knowingly manipulated the facts and the electorate with this story. If it was an unintentional conflation of his and Solzhenitsyn's experiences, it's no less troubling, but for different reasons.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

vitus979

Aug 19, 08 9:15

Post #21 of 74 (274 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Because he's made such an issue of his faith.

Oh, wait, that's Obama . . .

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

old-as-dirt

Aug 19, 08 9:40

Post #22 of 74 (257 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think it was the media that made an issue of Obama's faith not the man himself. As a matter of fact the McCain underground smear team are still making an issue of Obama's faith by perpetuating the muslim rumor.

As for McCain didn't he write a book about faith or something?

unstable and unable --- mccain and palin 2008

vitus979

Aug 19, 08 9:44

Post #23 of 74 (250 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think it was the media that made an issue of Obama's faith not the man himself.

You choose to think that because it's more comfortable for you, not because it has any relation to reality.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

sphere

Aug 19, 08 9:47

Post #24 of 74 (249 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think it was the media that made an issue of Obama's faith not the man himself.

They (rightly) made an issue of the controversial aspects of his church and his faith, but only reluctantly so. Obama has a record of marketing his faith during the course of his political life, sometimes excessively so.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

(This post was edited by sphere on Aug 19, 08 9:48)

Brick

Aug 19, 08 10:15

Post #25 of 74 (230 views)

Re: Cross in the dirt...McCain's bullets over Belgrade moment? [old-as-dirt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I thought he was a Baptist?

Your point?

Baptists, Episcopalians, Catholics ... sinners all. Some just feel more guilty than others.

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