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Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo?
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mopdahl
Aug 19, 08 14:44
Post #1 of 70 (496 views)
Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo?
Can't Post
A question to all of you pro-torture conservatives on the board: if McCain was tortured, doesn't that mean that the USA is guilty of torture as well? If he wasn't, then wasn't his stay in Hanoi little different to what we are doing to "enemy combatants" at Club Gitmo?
Or are you still trying to have it both ways....a nice little bowl of hypocrisy soup?
From Andrew Sullivan: In all the discussion of John McCain's recently recovered memory of a religious epiphany in Vietnam, one thing has been missing. The torture that was deployed against McCain emerges in all the various accounts. It involved sleep deprivation, the withholding of medical treatment, stress positions, long-time standing, and beating. Sound familiar?
According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured.
Cheney denies that McCain was tortured; as does Bush. So do John Yoo and David Addington and George Tenet. In the one indisputably
authentic version
of the story of a Vietnamese guard showing compassion, McCain talks of the agony of long-time standing. A quarter century later, Don Rumsfeld was putting his signature to memos lengthening the agony of "long-time standing" that victims of Bush's torture regime would have to endure. These torture techniques are, according to the president of the United States, merely "enhanced interrogation."
No war crimes were committed against McCain. And the techniques used are, according to the president, tools to extract accurate information. And so the false confessions that McCain was forced to make were, according to the logic of the Bush administration, as accurate as the "intelligence" we have procured from "interrogating" terror suspects. Feel safer?
The cross-in-the-dirt story - although deeply fishy to any fair observer - is in the realm of the unprovable. But the actual techniques used on McCain, and the lies they were designed to legitimize, are a matter of historical record. And the government of the United States now practices the very same techniques that the Communist government of North Vietnam once proudly used against American soldiers. When they are used against future John McCains, the victims will know, in a way McCain didn't, that their own government has no moral standing to complain.
Now the kicker: in the Military Commissions Act, McCain acquiesced to the use of these techniques against terror suspects by the CIA. And so the tortured became the enabler of torture. Someone somewhere cried out in pain for the same reasons McCain once did. And McCain let it continue.
These are the prices people pay for power.
____________
"After all, most of this hand-to-hand combat involves us arguing with each other over the things adults do. Now? I'd advise most of you to stay away from me if we're ever at the same event." - Big Kahuna
old-as-dirt
Aug 19, 08 14:54
Post #2 of 70 (486 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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those would be some of the principles I was referring to earlier that McCain has been jettisoning en route to the White House.
unstable and unable --- mccain and palin 2008
sphere
Aug 19, 08 15:05
Post #3 of 70 (471 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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Can't Post
According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured. Cheney denies that McCain was tortured; as does Bush.
Wow. That is truly idiotic. So this is Andrew Sullivan, eh? Not impressed.
Do you think, or do you think Sullivan thinks, that these are the only techniques McCain was subjected to, or that Bush, et al. would not consider being strung up by one's broken arms torture?
I'm equally disappointed that McCain didn't take a firmer stand on waterboarding after defining it as torture, but this is just pure drivel.
I'm sure the VC fed him bland, tasteless food as well. If Bush says that isn't torture, I suppose we should conclude otherwise, as well.
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
parkito
Aug 19, 08 15:09
Post #4 of 70 (465 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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Can't Post
You're an ass. A minimum of 116 Americans died in North Vietnamese prisons during the war. The actual number is undoubtedly higher as North Vietnam did not publicize who was captured. POWs always passed names on as to who was known to be captured so that some one would eventually know.
North Vietnam and Gitmo, yeah, it's the same.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
(This post was
edited
by parkito on Aug 19, 08 15:11)
MattinSF
Aug 19, 08 15:24
Post #5 of 70 (454 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [parkito]
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Can't Post
So we're not as bad as the North Vietnamese? is that where we've set the bar for morally acceptable behavior in this country?
We are torturing people in Guantanamo and John McCain is allowing it to happen. And before you finish your tirade against Andrew Sullivan, remember this. Sullivan was one of McCain's biggest supporters not so long ago for his stance against torture and his current series of articles seem to be his form of expressing his disappointment in the senator's vote to allow waterboarding of prisoners.
McCain opposed waterboarding and other sensory deprivation torture techniques for a very long time (primarily because they were used on him) but when election year rolled around and the right wing demagogues whose support he would need to win the nomination held his feet to the fire...yeah a bad pun but I couldn't help myself...McCain flipped positions and voted to allow the techniques.
One of the many character questions I have concerning John McCain. if he can fold on something so personal to him as torture for short term political gain, I don't think I will ever know what he stands for or against with any certainty.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
(This post was
edited
by MattinSF on Aug 19, 08 15:31)
mopdahl
Aug 19, 08 15:32
Post #6 of 70 (444 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [parkito]
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How many people do you think we (USA) directly or indirectly killed in Abu Ghirab, as well as some of the other rendition sites?
And Matt is spot on, if you are using North Vietnam's actions as the bar to which we should subscribe our own moral standing as to what is & isn't torture, we have fallen a long, long way. Why stop with the N. Vietnamese? Some of the torture procedures that we've implemented under Bush Co. have included elements perfected by Nazi Germany as well as Stalin's Gulags.
Or is that setting our moral bar too low?
____________
"After all, most of this hand-to-hand combat involves us arguing with each other over the things adults do. Now? I'd advise most of you to stay away from me if we're ever at the same event." - Big Kahuna
parkito
Aug 19, 08 15:32
Post #7 of 70 (444 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [MattinSF]
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Can't Post
So we're not as bad as the North Vietnamese? is that where we've set the bar or morally acceptable behavior in this country?
Your strawman, not mine. Your position is probably supporting drug selling, murdering illegal immigrants over the U.S. government position on Gitmo. More power to you.
And before you finish your tirade against Andrew Sullivan,
I haven't said one word about Sullivan. Get your head out of your ass for once, will you?
Sullivan was one of McCain's biggest supporters not so long ago
Since you are the one stating this I can clearly take this to mean it is not true.
I don't think I will ever know what he stands for or against with any certainty.
I certainly don't have any argument there. I think most things are beyond your understanding and comprehension.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
MattinSF
Aug 19, 08 15:38
Post #8 of 70 (436 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [parkito]
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In reply to
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Can't Post
Parkito,
I'm sorry you felt it necessary to respond with a tirade of personal insults without a single cogent point. Do you really think that lends any credibility to your position?
really?
You let us know when you're ready to have a discussion with the adults and we'll start listening again. Your friend Monk is unfortunately too far off the reservation to be saved...and you can tell him I said so...there is some hope for you however.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
parkito
Aug 19, 08 15:51
Post #9 of 70 (422 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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Can't Post
if you are using North Vietnam's actions as the bar to which we should subscribe our own moral standing
Hey idiot, it's your thread title not mine:
Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo?
Stick with your own script for more than 30 seconds will you. And just to make it clear since it seems that you cannot hold a thought for more than 30 seconds, no fucking way is Gitmo the same at Hanoi Hilton. Not in a million fucking years.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
MattinSF
Aug 19, 08 15:52
Post #10 of 70 (419 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [parkito]
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In reply to
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Can't Post
someone needs a time out.
----------------------------------------------------------
HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
vitus979
Aug 19, 08 16:06
Post #11 of 70 (408 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [MattinSF]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
Well, Matt, do you think that Hanoi Hilton=Club Gitmo? Do you think they're equivalent? Do you think that if what we're doing at Gitmo doesn't sink to the level of outright torture, it means that McCain wasn't tortured?
Because that was, in fact, what the OP claimed.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
parkito
Aug 19, 08 16:09
Post #12 of 70 (405 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [MattinSF]
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]
Can't Post
someone needs a time out.
Good idea. Go get your fishing pole. I know where I want to stick it.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
HUB
Aug 19, 08 16:15
Post #13 of 70 (398 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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In reply to
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Can't Post
ASSHAT!!!
Two things go to Gitmo get your facts stright and come talk to my grandfather P.O.W. in Germany 1943-45.
(This post was
edited
by HUB on Aug 19, 08 16:22)
MattinSF
Aug 19, 08 17:00
Post #14 of 70 (382 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To
Well, Matt, do you think that Hanoi Hilton=Club Gitmo? Do you think they're equivalent? Do you think that if what we're doing at Gitmo doesn't sink to the level of outright torture, it means that McCain wasn't tortured?
Because that was, in fact, what the OP claimed.
No I think the Hanoi Hilton was likely a much worse place. I think they are equivalent to the degree that people have been/ are being tortured in both places. I believe that McCain is a victim of his own clumsiness, he voted for a bill that allows water boarding and sensory deprivation and the claim was that those techniques did not constitute torture. In his own book McCain described those very techniques as the ones used to torture him. I believe waterboarding is torture, I believe sensory deprivation is torture. I believe John McCain was tortured. I believe he is deeply conflicted on this issue.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
vitus979
Aug 19, 08 17:05
Post #15 of 70 (381 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [MattinSF]
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Can't Post
If you had managed to say that in the first place, you'd have come off sounding a lot more sensible.
Better late than never.
;)
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
MattinSF
Aug 19, 08 17:22
Post #16 of 70 (374 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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Can't Post
In Reply To
If you had managed to say that in the first place, you'd have come off sounding a lot more sensible.
Better late than never.
;)
I said exactly that in my prior post, I said the North Vietnamese werre worse than us, I said John McCain was tortured, I said his position was inconsistent with previous statements and positions. I sounded just as sensible in my first post as I did in my last, I just took 30 minutes to let you calm down a bit and see reason.
Better late than never.
;-)
no seriously,
;-)
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
vitus979
Aug 19, 08 17:31
Post #17 of 70 (365 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [MattinSF]
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Can't Post
No, Matt, what you said was this:
So we're not as bad as the North Vietnamese? is that where we've set the bar for morally acceptable behavior in this country?
Which, as I hope you are capable of recognizing, shifts the point away from the topic under discussion considerably. Mop's post claimed that what we are doing at Gitmo is the same thing as what was done in North Vietnamese prison camps, and claimed that if it's true that we're not torturing people at Gitmo, McCain wasn't tortured.
That is a wrong statement, as you agree. The problem is that your agreement wasn't evident from your prior post. When people objected to the OP on the grounds that what happened in North Vietnam was worse than what goes on at Gitmo, you didn't express your agreement with them, you turned it into a question of whether or not McCain's treatment is the bar for moral behavior.
You can see, I trust, how people might mistake your position.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
parkito
Aug 19, 08 18:01
Post #18 of 70 (354 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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Can't Post
That is a wrong statement, as you agree. The problem is that your agreement wasn't evident from your prior post.
Sorry Vitus, he still didn't really agree to that:
"No I think the Hanoi Hilton
was likely
a much worse place."
Nobody will ever pin Matt down into a firm position on anything with the exception that all Republicans are hopeless idiots responsible for all the world's ills.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
vitus979
Aug 19, 08 18:04
Post #19 of 70 (352 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [parkito]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
Baby steps, park, baby steps.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
parkito
Aug 19, 08 18:05
Post #20 of 70 (350 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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]
Can't Post
LOL
I'm too old to have that kind of patience anymore.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
mopdahl
Aug 19, 08 18:12
Post #21 of 70 (347 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
Mop's post claimed that what we are doing at Gitmo is the same thing as what was done in North Vietnamese prison camps,
Lets not just restrict it to Gitmo--what we (USA) have done in AG, as well as what we, directly or indirectly have done at the various rendition sites around the globe, is pretty much on par with what was done in the HH. Just because we did it, doesn't make it justifiable or any less repugnant.
and claimed that if it's true that we're not torturing people at Gitmo, McCain wasn't tortured.
That is the basic conservative argument--that when we use enhanced interrogations (clever euphaemism for torture) it isn't torture, but when it is done to us (or in this case McCain), it is. Conservatives can't have it both ways. That the OP has elicited the FU responses from the dim bulbs in the audience shows me that it has struck a little to close to home.
That is a wrong statement, as you agree.
Wrong? Only if you agree with the general conservative viewpoint that if it is done in the name of the US, than it isn't torture. What Matt was inferring is where do we set the moral bar. Obviously that raised a few hackles, as evidenced by Parkito's sputtering & Spot's denunciation. So I'll pose the basic Andrew Sullivan argument another way: if we use the same techniques to torture "enemy combatants" that were used by the North Vietnamese, Nazis, and Stalinists in the Gulag, aren't we basically now on the same moral ground as them? And how did history judge those actions, 40-80 years on?
That McCain is willing to throw what were previously personal, bedrock convictions (convictions learned thru hands-on lessons) about torture aside, all in the name of political gain, make him, IMHO, unfit for the presidency. Quoting Sullivan again, because I think it is key to how grievous this issue is to our standing as a moral country:
"in the Military Commissions Act, McCain acquiesced to the use of these techniques against terror suspects by the CIA. And so the tortured became the enabler of torture. Someone somewhere cried out in pain for the same reasons McCain once did. And McCain let it continue."
Electing McCain is akin to condoning torture, and I believe that most of the rest of the world will see it that way as well.
____________
"After all, most of this hand-to-hand combat involves us arguing with each other over the things adults do. Now? I'd advise most of you to stay away from me if we're ever at the same event." - Big Kahuna
parkito
Aug 19, 08 18:16
Post #22 of 70 (344 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
Electing McCain is akin to condoning torture, and I believe that most of the rest of the world will see it that way as well.
As cynical as I can be on occasion, even I don't think the rest of the world is that stupid or naive.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
vitus979
Aug 19, 08 18:24
Post #23 of 70 (341 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Lets not just restrict it to Gitmo--what we (USA) have done in AG, as well as what we, directly or indirectly have done at the various rendition sites around the globe, is pretty much on par with what was done in the HH.
That's a significantly different question. I am in agreement with you about the rendition sites.
Just because we did it, doesn't make it justifiable or any less repugnant.
Of course not. And just because Gitmo is not as bad as the Hanoi Hilton doesn't mean that it's justifiable or not repugnant. I think it is, and I think it qualifies as torture. But I can also see that HH (and some of our rendition sites) was worse, and therefore if someone doesn't think what goes on at Gitmo sinks to the level of torture, they don't have to conclude that McCain wasn't tortured.
That is the basic conservative argument--that when we use enhanced interrogations (clever euphaemism for torture) it isn't torture, but when it is done to us (or in this case McCain), it is. Conservatives can't have it both ways.
No, that isn't the basic conservative argument. (You mean Republican, or neo-con, maybe.) Their argument is that what we do at Gitmo or did at AG is complete child's play compared to what went on in places like HH. The hypocrisy comes into play in our use of rendition nations, and in the fact that if our enemies waterboarded our soldiers, we'd all be screaming bloody murder. The neo-cons were feigning hysterics over "war crimes" when Saddam's forces took some photos of captured American soldiers, for crying out loud. Not photos of them being mistreated, just photos.
Wrong? Only if you agree with the general conservative viewpoint that if it is done in the name of the US, than it isn't torture.
No, I think it's wrong in that the methods we use at Gitmo are just not as bad as the treatment at a place like HH. If they were, we wouldn't need rendition nations.
So I'll pose the basic Andrew Sullivan argument another way: if we use the same techniques to torture "enemy combatants" that were used by the North Vietnamese, Nazis, and Stalinists in the Gulag, aren't we basically now on the same moral ground as them?
I agree with your basic position, but you overstate your case. Needlessly, as your case is plenty strong enough on its own merits.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
mopdahl
Aug 19, 08 18:38
Post #24 of 70 (331 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [vitus979]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
I agree with your basic position, but you overstate your case. Needlessly, as your case is plenty strong enough on its own merits.
Thank you; as I'm sure you are aware, I prefer to drive points home with a sledgehammer.
____________
"After all, most of this hand-to-hand combat involves us arguing with each other over the things adults do. Now? I'd advise most of you to stay away from me if we're ever at the same event." - Big Kahuna
big kahuna
Aug 20, 08 9:17
Post #25 of 70 (333 views)
Re: Hanoi Hilton = Club Gitmo? [mopdahl]
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In reply to
]
Can't Post
A question to all of you pro-torture conservatives on the board: if McCain was tortured, doesn't that mean that the USA is guilty of torture as well? If he wasn't, then wasn't his stay in Hanoi little different to what we are doing to "enemy combatants" at Club Gitmo?
Proud member of the pro-torture conservative movement, big guy :-)) I'd zap Khalid Sheik Mohammed to smut if it meant saving the lives of my fellow Americans. Besides, waterboarding isn't torture. And what's this "enemy combatants" highlighting? What would you like to call them? They're not, nor do they merit the title of, "enemy prisoners of war," which is a whole 'nother animal under the law of war and the Geneva Conventions.
Or are you still trying to have it both ways....a nice little bowl of hypocrisy soup?
Yup. You got a problem with that, cheechako?
From Andrew Sullivan: In all the discussion of John McCain's recently recovered memory of a religious epiphany in Vietnam, one thing has been missing. The torture that was deployed against McCain emerges in all the various accounts. It involved sleep deprivation, the withholding of medical treatment, stress positions, long-time standing, and beating. Sound familiar?
Andrew Sullivan, bloviating gasbag that he is, nows what about torture? Remind me again, please. I've been through various schools and training courses back in the military (SERE/Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape comes immediately flooding back into my memory banks) in which most of those innocuous-sounding interrogation techniques that he quotes were deployed. Given the years in which I went through (initial and so called "refresher") most of the programs employed against us (for our benefit) mirrored the NVA/ChiCom/Soviet style and I can tell that you that what McCain underwent is about a million to the tenth power the strength of what our "enemy combatants" being "detained" down in Gitmo have even come close to experiencing.
Cheney denies that McCain was tortured; as does Bush. So do John Yoo and David Addington and George Tenet. In the one indisputably
authentic version
of the story of a Vietnamese guard showing compassion, McCain talks of the agony of long-time standing. A quarter century later, Don Rumsfeld was putting his signature to memos lengthening the agony of "long-time standing" that victims of Bush's torture regime would have to endure. These torture techniques are, according to the president of the United States, merely "enhanced interrogation."
Horseshit, and you know it. But it fits your fever-swamp daydream of Amerika the evil, I'd say. I've never heard any of those gentlemen say that McCain didn't undergo vicious torture, the likes of which even the thought of having to undergo would probably make you soil your undergarments, I'd hazard an opinion to say. There's no shame in that by the way (at least, for you). Most of us would do the same thing. That McCain didn't, even knowing that he was going to be brutalized and maybe even killed for the courage of his convictions, makes Andrew Sullivan seem even more the jackanapes and peddler of bullshit than he normally is.
No war crimes were committed against McCain. And the techniques used are, according to the president, tools to extract accurate information. And so the false confessions that McCain was forced to make were, according to the logic of the Bush administration, as accurate as the "intelligence" we have procured from "interrogating" terror suspects. Feel safer?
More nonsence, and a result of the Sullivan psychosis. He conflates, and extrapolates with the best ever produced by the Daily Kos, the Huffington Post and The Nation, I'd say. What are they putting in Liberal coffeepots these days? I mean, besides the usual dosage of LSD and mescaline?
The cross-in-the-dirt story - although deeply fishy to any fair observer - is in the realm of the unprovable. But the actual techniques used on McCain, and the lies they were designed to legitimize, are a matter of historical record. And the government of the United States now practices the very same techniques that the Communist government of North Vietnam once proudly used against American soldiers. When they are used against future John McCains, the victims will know, in a way McCain didn't, that their own government has no moral standing to complain.
Now the kicker: in the Military Commissions Act, McCain acquiesced to the use of these techniques against terror suspects by the CIA. And so the tortured became the enabler of torture. Someone somewhere cried out in pain for the same reasons McCain once did. And McCain let it continue.
These are the prices people pay for power.
How nice that we have people like little Andy Sullivan to pass judgment on events he most likely will never be able to disprove or prove (the cross in the dirt) and to opine on the power of moral suasion to limit the evil, cruel and inhumane treatment that our soldiers may suffer as a result of our providing three hots and a cot to various Al Qaeda baddies down in Gitmo. No, wait!! Our soldiers ALREADY undergo those things when they're nabbed by the enemy, and waaaaaay before we ever opened up Gitmo. Ever seen the video of Marine LCOL Bill Higgins, who was nabbed in Beirut, hanging by the neck (dead, obviously)? Grabbed by the Amal/Hezb'allah goons and thugs that the American Left just seems to have no problem fawning over and equating to heroic "freedom fighters" and "insurgents."
You need a little time over in that part of the world, sir. And so does Mr. Andy. It'd at least help you realize that there's a lot more going on in the world than you can comprehend.
BK
BK
(This post was
edited
by big kahuna on Aug 20, 08 9:30)
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