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Obama and McCain Tax Proposals
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jtaylor1O24
Aug 17, 08 9:56
Post #1 of 48 (507 views)
Obama and McCain Tax Proposals
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Assuming this is accurate I thought this was a decent graphic illustrating the difference between the two. A couple of things stand out.
There is clearly a large difference between the two if you make more than 600K/year. I'm curious how many people in the US make more than that and would have their taxes actually increased?
Between $66K/yr and $160K a year they are remarkably similar.
Edit for link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ST2008060900950.html
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(This post was
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parkito
Aug 17, 08 10:03
Post #2 of 48 (482 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [jtaylor1O24]
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I think if you post something like this, you need to post sources. Clicking on the graphic indicates WaPo. I'd like to know how they compiled their information.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
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vitus979
Aug 17, 08 10:05
Post #3 of 48 (481 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [jtaylor1O24]
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Assuming the chart is accurate, I think the thing that stands out most clearly is that McCain would give the biggest tax breaks to the rich, and smaller and smaller tax cuts as you go down the economic ladder. That graphic is going to be a huge loser for McCain if it gets widespread exposure.
I'm curious, too, how they would both decrease taxes for people making "up to 18,981." (McCain by 0.2%, Obama by a whopping 5.5%) Are people making that much money paying any income tax at all? I tend to think not. How is any "decrease" achieved here- by a larger "earned income credit"?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
jtaylor1O24
Aug 17, 08 10:07
Post #4 of 48 (479 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [parkito]
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Fair enough. I edited for the link.
----
Don't hold back
JT
Reduce your carbon footprint - burn less stuff,
http://www.carbonfund.org
Don't complain, just work harder. - Randy Pausch
jtaylor1O24
Aug 17, 08 10:08
Post #5 of 48 (476 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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Yeah. What I would like to see on this chart for each line is % and number of people that fall into each group. Maybe someone can find this info?
Edit: and portion of total tax revenue generated from each.
----
Don't hold back
JT
Reduce your carbon footprint - burn less stuff,
http://www.carbonfund.org
Don't complain, just work harder. - Randy Pausch
(This post was
edited
by jtaylor1O24 on Aug 17, 08 10:11)
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 10:11
Post #6 of 48 (464 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [jtaylor1O24]
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Wel, the chart gives some info- limited- on that. What I'd also like to see is an analysis of how much more or less revenue each of these proposals would produce.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
jtaylor1O24
Aug 17, 08 10:15
Post #7 of 48 (461 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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Hmmm. You know... then if we subtracted the cost of what they are proposing from that we could come up with what could be called an actual budget. Nah, who am I kidding. I doubt either will go that far. ;)
----
Don't hold back
JT
Reduce your carbon footprint - burn less stuff,
http://www.carbonfund.org
Don't complain, just work harder. - Randy Pausch
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 10:17
Post #8 of 48 (456 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [jtaylor1O24]
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No, actually I think they have both gone that far. At least generally.
Basically, both of their proposals would result in continued budget deficits. I just haven't seen a direct comparison of tax revenue between the two tax schemes.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 10:22
Post #9 of 48 (451 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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Wait a minute. I think my question can be answered by the chart. McCain's proposal would result in less tax revenue than Obama's.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
ajfranke
Aug 17, 08 11:07
Post #10 of 48 (443 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [jtaylor1O24]
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This analysis is superficial. It is not about the total tax take from people. It is about the policies that set tax rates. I am guessing this analysis just sets a tax rate and assumes nothing changes. The reality is that, say, raising capital gains rates will decrease revenue, thus seeming like a tax increase from the point of view of this analysis.
The reality is that Obama wants to sharply increase tax rates of upper income tax payers. This will likely result in a bad recession given current economic weakness as well as lower tax revenue.
If those are the policies we vote for in November, the resulting economic weakness we get will be well deserved, though that won't stop many from whining.
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Art Franke
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 11:12
Post #11 of 48 (440 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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It is not about the total tax take from people. It is about the policies that set tax rates.
Did anyone suggest otherwise?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
ajfranke
Aug 17, 08 11:40
Post #12 of 48 (435 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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The existence of the chart suggests otherwise. Looking at the issues this way is superficial and guaranteed to be inaccurate. This chart was probably created with an analysis that assumed current reported taxable income projections and applied proposed tax rates to get a revenue estimate and thus a percentage of tax estimate. The reality is that such an approach is likely going to be exactly wrong since the higher tax rates will affect behavior.
So, for example, Bush's tax cuts have in fact caused ever increasing tax revenue from the highest wage earners and thus were actually progressive. The analysis from this chart would show them as regressive, getting it exactly wrong as I describe.
If you want an intelligent discussion, you need to ditch the chart and discuss actual policies, like the massive increases in capital gains tax rates Obama proposes. If all you want is a class warfare discussion, then go ahead and use the chart for the basis of discussion, just don't think it has any bearing on reality.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 11:58
Post #13 of 48 (433 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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Again, it's the people who want to engage in class war who pretend to object to it the strongest.
The chart is reflective of reality in that it portrays the tax rate that would be imposed on those in different income levels. What effect that ultimately has on tax revenue is speculative and debatable, but to say that the chart is therefore meaningless is simply not true.
Also, to characterize Bush's tax cuts as "actually progressive" because they resulted in increased tax revenue is to use the term progressive in a way contrary to the common understanding in tax discussions.
You can argue that Obama's proposal is unfair if you want to. You can argue that it will ultimately lead to lower tax revenue, if you want to. To suggest that the chart is not reflective of reality is just silly.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
ajfranke
Aug 17, 08 12:25
Post #14 of 48 (429 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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The chart is reflective of reality in that it portrays the tax rate that would be imposed on those in different income levels.
You need to read the chart more carefully, Vitus. It says nothing whatever about tax rates. It refers only to tax revenues raised measured in dollars paid.
What effect that ultimately has on tax revenue is speculative and debatable, but to say that the chart is therefore meaningless is simply not true.
Again, this is a chart showing projected tax revenue, and, as such, is completely speculative. Such projections are almost always completely wrong, purposefully, and by design, since they almost always assume no change in behavior.
Also, to characterize Bush's tax cuts as "actually progressive" because they resulted in increased tax revenue is to use the term progressive in a way contrary to the common understanding in tax discussions.
My explanation was poor, but my point is exactly right. Bush's tax cuts resulted in higher income taxpayers paying an ever large share of income taxes and lower income taxpayers paying an ever smaller share. That is a more progressive tax pretty much by definition.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 12:35
Post #15 of 48 (427 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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Again, this is a chart showing projected tax revenue, and, as such, is completely speculative.
Alright, I take your point about the chart. But I think it's not as completely speculative as you make out. Would be interesting to see the actual tax rates proposed by the candidates. Got a link to that?
Bush's tax cuts resulted in higher income taxpayers paying an ever large share of income taxes and lower income taxpayers paying an ever smaller share. That is a more progressive tax pretty much by definition.
No, it's not. The usual and common understanding of a progressive tax is one that taxes the upper income levels at increasingly higher rates as compared to the income level of those in that income group- not measuring by their contribution to the overall tax revenue. If you lower the tax rate of the highest earners by 10%, but they double their income, they're going to contribute more in tax revenue, and that's fine. The tax rate is still less progressive.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
sleepy
Aug 17, 08 15:24
Post #16 of 48 (414 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [vitus979]
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If you make under 19k/yr you do pay taxes (or you did for 2006 and for 2007 at least). Just thought I'd confirm that.
ChiTownJack
Aug 18, 08 17:02
Post #17 of 48 (359 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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, you need to ditch the chart and discuss actual policies, like the massive increases in capital gains tax rates Obama proposes
Massive?... he's wants to raise the CG/Div rate from 15% to 20 but only if you make more than 250K.... That's far from "ord. income" rates.
BarryP
Aug 18, 08 18:43
Post #18 of 48 (349 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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Looks like even McCain thinks Bush's tax policies were terrible. Bush's massive cuts for the rich weren't big enough.
Hopefuly McCain realizes that VooDoo economics won't work without borrowing giant sums of money. How many grand children do you think I should plan for to pay for it?
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
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or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
ChiTownJack
Aug 18, 08 20:22
Post #19 of 48 (343 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [BarryP]
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"Hopefuly McCain realizes that VooDoo economics won't work without borrowing giant sums of money. How many grand children do you think I should plan for to pay for it?
"
Just follow the McCain plan, ditch your wife for someone younger and richer... then enjoy your
8 or 9 houses
.
fitzie
Aug 19, 08 9:46
Post #20 of 48 (310 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [ajfranke]
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Tax Cuts work only when the economy in general is doing well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_cuts
"The immediate effects of a tax cut are, generally, a decrease in the real income of the government and an increase in the real income of those whose tax rate has been lowered. In the longer term, however, the effect on government income may be reversed, depending on the response that tax-payers make. Depending on the original tax rate, tax cuts may provide individuals and corporations with an incentive for investments which stimulate so much economic activity that even at the lower rate more net tax revenue will be collected.[
citation needed
]
The longer term
macroeconomic
effects of a tax cut are not predictable in general, because they depend on how the taxpayers use their additional income and how the government adjusts to its reduced income. Three idealised scenarios can be hypothesised:
Government cuts its expenditure, and taxpayers increase theirs, spending the money on commodities sourced from within the country. This combination is macroeconomically neutral, but advocates of a
free-market
economy argue that it improves economic welfare, since people are more accurate than the government in spending money on commodities that they actually want.
Government maintains its expenditure (thus incurring debt), and taxpayers increase theirs, spending the money on commodities sourced from within the country. This combination provides a stimulus to the economy, and it is on these grounds that advocates of
supply-side economics
frequently argue for tax cuts. It should lead to economic growth, bringing about greater general prosperity, though unless managed carefully it will also lead to
inflation
.
A government making tax cuts and incurring debt usually hopes that the economic stimulus of the tax cut will be large enough to produce a long-term increase in tax revenues, allowing the debt to be paid off in the future. If that does not occur then the government can be left with a severe budgetary crisis.
Government maintains its expenditure (thus incurring debt), and taxpayers either save their increased income or spend it on commodities sourced from outside the country. This combination is not inherently
deflationary
, but it contributes to
balance of payments
difficulties which may have secondary deflationary effects and as noted above may lead to a government budgetary crisis with a painful readjustment to follow.
In practice it is likely that a mixture of these effects will occur, and the net effect of any tax cut will depend on the balance between them. It will therefore be a function of the overall state of the national economy.
In conditions where most goods and services (especially those frequently purchased out of discretionary income, such as consumer durables) are produced domestically, a tax cut is more likely to provide a macroeconomic stimulus than in conditions where most consumer durables are imported. Furthermore, the actual effect will inevitably be difficult to discern, because of numerous other changes in the economy between the time when a tax cut is proposed and the time when its full effects would be realized.
If government does reduce its expenditure to accommodate tax cuts, there must necessarily be reductions in government services, and there may also be a reduction of the government's capacity to redistribute income to reduce income inequalities. Critics of tax cuts argue that this leads to a fall in overall economic welfare because the effects fall disproportionately on those with the lowest incomes."
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
blueraider_mike
Aug 19, 08 11:26
Post #21 of 48 (297 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [fitzie]
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Tax cuts have worked everytime they have been tried - Kennedy, Reagan and W proved this. We also know tax increases during slow economic times bury the economy.
BarryP
Aug 19, 08 11:43
Post #22 of 48 (291 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [blueraider_mike]
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Quote
Tax cuts have worked everytime they have been tried - Kennedy, Reagan and W proved this. We also know tax increases during slow economic times bury the economy.
Then why did Reagan raise taxes 4 times during his adminstration? If Ws tax policy was so good, why does McCain need to cut them even more....mostly for the rich?
And how did we manage to pay down the debt with Clinton's tax policies when Bush I, II, and Reagan could only manage to drive it up? I think what you should be saying is, "Borrowing lots of money has worked every time." I know my parents borrowed a ton of money and drove really nice cars......for a while.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
blueraider_mike
Aug 20, 08 6:26
Post #23 of 48 (254 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [BarryP]
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Barry, Your post is so full of sh!t.
We managed to pay down debt (regardless of who is President) when the economy is humming and spending is under control. The spending was in control in the 90s (seem to forget major welfare reform and defense cutbacks). The spending in 80s and 2000s has been out of control thus you have deficiets DESPITE ever increasing revenues.
You bring up Clinton, you seem to forget who was running the congress then, you don't mentioned the expansion of the Internet and the wealth and innovation that it created - stop compartmentalizing. And to say that Reagan raised taxes without considering his body of work on tax policy - your kidding right, please tell me you kidding?
Once again, you ignore the FACT that the revenue generated grew while Kennedy, Reagan and W were Presidents despite the fact that they CUT taxes.
Lastly, stop the "mostly for the Rich" tax cut whining. Its a play that keeps getting run over and over and over. Its hard to cut taxes on people who pay very little in taxes. The concept of reducing taxes is not social engineering, its to take dollars that the govt would take away from individuals and business and let these entities invest them instead.
fitzie
Aug 20, 08 6:35
Post #24 of 48 (251 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [blueraider_mike]
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"You bring up Clinton, you seem to forget who was running the congress then, you don't mentioned the expansion of the Internet and the wealth and innovation that it created - stop compartmentalizing. And to say that Reagan raised taxes without considering his body of work on tax policy - your kidding right, please tell me you kidding?"
I love Republicans. When things go well and they are in control of Congress or the White House, they take credit. If things aren't going so well they point the finger and blame either the Democratic President or Congress. You know who sets tax policy? Congress. Not the President.
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
blueraider_mike
Aug 20, 08 6:42
Post #25 of 48 (248 views)
Re: Obama and McCain Tax Proposals [fitzie]
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Once again another post cherry picking my comments. Way to be originial and creative!!!
Here, let me help you with our current President. Great on tax policy, bad on spending. The President may not pass any laws, but He creates the blueprint. He has a veto.
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