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Should I have more allegiance to my employer?

matti58

Aug 20, 08 12:20

Post #1 of 25 (585 views)

Should I have more allegiance to my employer?	Can't Post

I work full-time (university research) and am working on my master's degree as well. My employer is paying almost all of my tuition ($60k) - this is a benefit that all employees receive if they so choose to pursue more education. I'll be graduating in May 2009 and am seriously thinking about looking for new work after I graduate. It's not that I dislike my job, but I've been here for over five years and I certainly know that I'm not passionate about what I do. It's fine for this stage in my life, but I'm ready for something different.

I feel guilty for thinking about leaving my employer as soon as I graduate (assuming I could find a new job that I wanted). My boss has been very supportive of me over the years and has given me the necessary time off to study/attend classes, etc. He even once told me that it's okay if I find other employment, because he realizes that the university cannot pay me as much as, perhaps, some other private companies (note: I am NOT chasing money. I simply want to be fulfilled). He said that if I have any "hot leads" for a new job, that he would appreciate giving him a few months notice so he can, if necessary, look for a new employee. He has been very understanding and only wants what is best for me.

So, my question is, should I feel guilty if I decide to get a new job as soon as I graduate? It seems pretty shitty on my end to have my employer pay my tuition for two years of grad school, only to leave them after I graduate. Any thoughts? Thanks!

erichollins

Aug 20, 08 12:29

Post #2 of 25 (568 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think it is bad. If you find better opportunities out there, go for it. Also, you boss understands your situation and has given you a green light to look for new work. I wouldn't think twice about it and I wouldn't feel guilty about it at all.
--
Patience isn't a virtue. Patience is a waste of my time.
http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

Mobius

Aug 20, 08 12:31

Post #3 of 25 (567 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can't help on the decision making front, but one thing to be aware: when I got my masters degree paid by my employer, there was a specific clause that if you leave within a year of finishing, you had to pay back all the education benefits. Sounds like that may not be the case for you, but worth checking.

My stated priorities were always to have a job that I enjoyed doing. It didn't have to pay the best, but it had to be something I wouldn't wake up dreading. I've been fortunate to find a place that fits my skills and personality well and stuck around. Not every day is my best day, and I go through slumps of boredom once in a while, but the vast majority of the 10 years I've been working here has been very good.

BarryP

Aug 20, 08 12:32

Post #4 of 25 (565 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

No!

I had a business writing teacher once tell us, "You put in two weeks of work and at the end of that 2 weeks you get a pay check. At that point you are even."

Companies (institutions) offer such packages not because they are simply being nice. They do so to make their over all compensation to their employees more attractive. You shouldn't feel guilty that they paid for your education any more than you should feel guilty that they give you a pay check each month or cover part of your health care. You *earned* it by doing work for them. Do you think they feel guilty knowing that they make more money off of the work that you do above and beyond what they actually pay you?

I'm not saying that its about money or that you should leave. My company treats me very well and I plan to stay for a while. However, its because there is good job security here and its a great working environment. However, if things were to change and I had better opportunities elsewhere, I wouldn't think twice about giving my notice the day after receiving a big bonus check. The check is for work I already did, not to obligate me to do more work. That education they paid for is for the work you did while you were there, not to obligate you to stay (otherwise it would be written into their policy that way). It also sounds like your boss already understands this relationship.

BTW, I had a great University job and quit it. I felt bad, but as I told my boss, "I've got bills to pay and I'm making $20K below industry standard. Sorry."
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.

sorelian

Aug 20, 08 12:36

Post #5 of 25 (556 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am in a similar position...a thesis defense is all that stands in front of me and my masters. Have worked for my University in administration through graduate school and they have paid my way. Originally, I thought that I would bolt right after the masters (scheduled defense this fall)...but somewhere along the way after a few promotions I find myself really liking my job. It has turned into a career and the draw of my alma mater doesn't hurt. In all I have spent 18 of the past 20 years at this school in one capacity or another and have grown to think of it as a very special place. Thankfully, my masters field allows me to do what I enjoy most (researching and writing history) and continue my career pursuits in upper level university administration as well.

Only you know what is best for you in the end...but the university surrounding is worth a little less money to me.

--------------
Pass the weak, hurdle the dead.

(This post was edited by sorelian on Aug 20, 08 12:38)

David in FL

Aug 20, 08 12:38

Post #6 of 25 (549 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In the private sector, tuition reimbursement usually comes with the requirement to remain with an employer for a certain length of time following graduation. That's not the case here, which tells me that the tuition is part of your current compensation for the job that you're doing for them now. As such it seems to me that you have no obligation to stick around after graduation and can (and should) do whatever you deem to be in your own best interest.

BTW......nothing wrong with "chasing money" either. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be fulfilled and financially comfortable at the same time!

Good luck.

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

FLA Jill

Aug 20, 08 12:38

Post #7 of 25 (547 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Mobius] [In reply to]	Can't Post

University/college is different in that regard in that most places regard a certain number of free tuition hours every semester for the employee (and sometimes the employee's spouse and offspring) as just an ordinary part of the compensation package like health insurance or paid holidays.

Most schools expect a certain number of employees to be just there long enough to muscle through their degrees. It's even encouraged and expected if you're talking something like a clerical or physical plant worker who's there because the school will pay for them to get their bachelor's degree- if there's not a white collar spot opening up once they get that accounting degree, they're going to more on to some place where there is.

Marco in BC

Aug 20, 08 12:39

Post #8 of 25 (546 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

so, you have a good job, with a great boss and amazing benefits and you are planning to leave to try and find more 'fulfillment'? Hint: 99% of the jobs after a while do not elicit 'passion', and especially in the private field where you could be slaving unpaid overtime for 6 months only to have your project canned because some random exec woke up on the wrong side of the bed that morning.

If I were you I would stay where you are and count your blessings (especially given how the economy is going nowadays), but that's probably not what you want to hear.

--
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.

jriosa

Aug 20, 08 12:41

Post #9 of 25 (539 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Barry P has the gist of it. Besides, it sounds like your employer is pretty reasonable. I don't see whay you don't look, but I do think you should determine an adequate amount of time for a replacement - so don't go out promising a two week notice. If you and your employer thinks 3 months is sufficnet to get a replacment and perhaps do some knowledge transfer, make that as part of you job search requirements.

That said, if it becomes untenable to be able to look for a job with that much lead time and it needs to be shorter, you ultimately need to look after your own best interests.

Good luck - exciting times.
Jim

slowbern

Aug 20, 08 12:44

Post #10 of 25 (533 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [BarryP] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Companies (institutions) offer such packages not because they are simply being nice. They do so to make their over all compensation to their employees more attractive. You shouldn't feel guilty that they paid for your education any more than you should feel guilty that they give you a pay check each month or cover part of your health care. You *earned* it by doing work for them. Do you think they feel guilty knowing that they make more money off of the work that you do above and beyond what they actually pay you?

This could be true, but there is also another way to look at it. Sometimes employers recognize that by subsidizing the educational efforts of their empoyees helps to make better employees. I could argue that Matti's situation is like this, especially when his boss allows him to have a flexible schedule to attend classes and do school work.

I am not saying that this requires a commitment to stay on the job, but I think that the University has "invested" in him and maybe he owes them more than the old, "I worked 2 weeks and you paid me 2 weeks so we're even."

Bernie

_______________

There, Sphere, are you happy?

Mobius

Aug 20, 08 12:45

Post #11 of 25 (532 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [FLA Jill] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the clarifaction! I obviously haven't been on that end of academia :) Doesn't sound like there should be any guilt here.

Guess the decision comes down to if you can find a job that will satisfy, and be around in the next XX years.

BarryP

Aug 20, 08 12:46

Post #12 of 25 (529 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Marco in BC] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What a downer, but correct.

We aquired a small company recently and the workers are pissed. They're happy with us for the most part, but they worked their asses off for the former owner hoping to keep the company afloat and he pretty much sold them, took the money, and ran. These guys were putting in 60 hr weeks with no overtime pay to keep this small ~8 person company up and running and one guy took it all.
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.

FLA Jill

Aug 20, 08 12:46

Post #13 of 25 (527 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Marco in BC] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll agree that for all there are things about the ivory tower that will drive you stark raving bonkers, there are also things in that environment that you will very much miss in the private sector- the relative stability of the insitiution's employment situation, the interesting people you get to interact with every day, heck, the nice free gym right across campus for those days when it's too cold or rainy to run outside.

And don't underestimate the fufillment of getting a full (or two) off at Christmas without it counting against your vacation days. Sounds trivial, but come December, it really does make a difference.

I ventured out of the tower a while back, and ran screaming back into it the first chance I got.

Tridiot

Aug 20, 08 12:49

Post #14 of 25 (520 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If I read you correctly, you sound more loyal to your boss than your employer. If so, that's what most people go through. The saying is "You aren't loyal to institutions, you are loyal to people."

So you absolutely have to give at least 2 weeks, just do it at a minimum to be fair. Make sure you have absolutely no contractual obligations for a term of service with regards to tuition reimbursement or payments, including for completion of a degree. Many (most?) companies require specific payback in terms of time of service, and if you break that time then they want full reimbursement. Don't let this bite you.

You'll also want to consider the timing of quitting with respect to starting the new job. Do you want any downtime? Is there paid leave you can (must?) take from your current employer? Can you cash that out and immediately start at the new place? I switched companies back in April and had no downtime. It would have been nice, but would have meant no income for a week or two. I prefer to not have gaps like that (also is important for insurance).

Have you considered talking to your current boss about the reasons you look elsewhere to make the change where you are? There could be options for you within that organization you don't even know about. So consider that before you decide to leave. Maybe there would be some sort of a "skunkworks" program, similar to Google's program of allotting several hours a week to employees to work on whatever they want.

matti58

Aug 20, 08 13:00

Post #15 of 25 (506 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Tridiot] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Everyone, thank you for your insightful thoughts and opinions.

I've read over the tuition benefit policies regarding any "length of service" requirements for after I receive the degree, and to my knowledge, I am not obligated to work a certain amount of time after I graduate. But, before I do any serious job-searching, I'll be sure to verify this.

One thing I neglected to mention is that I'm 100% sure that there are a lot of willing workers that could do my job better than I could. I'm just not motivated to work harder because I'm not passionate about the work I do.

"There could be options for you within that organization you don't even know about." This is the one wildcard. I would certainly be willing to stay if I could find another opportunity within the university that better suits me and, maybe, taps into my new management degree (I want to get out of the "technical" side of the research and get into the management side. My degree should help me with this...I think!)

sorelian

Aug 20, 08 13:18

Post #16 of 25 (480 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"There could be options for you within that organization you don't even know about." This is the one wildcard. I would certainly be willing to stay if I could find another opportunity within the university that better suits me and, maybe, taps into my new management degree (I want to get out of the "technical" side of the research and get into the management side. My degree should help me with this...I think!)

An MBA (I assume, could be something else within management) with research experience...you should be able to move around pretty freely in a college environment.

Me loves my ivory tower.

Like Dr. Raymond Stantz said to Dr. Peter Venkman.

"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*. "

--------------
Pass the weak, hurdle the dead.

David in FL

Aug 20, 08 13:54

Post #17 of 25 (450 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [sorelian] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Me loves my ivory tower.

"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*. "

.....and as Dirty Harry Callahan said, "a good man always knows his limitations......!" ;-)

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

erichollins

Aug 20, 08 16:25

Post #18 of 25 (406 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [sorelian] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ghostbusters!
--
Patience isn't a virtue. Patience is a waste of my time.
http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

Craigster

Aug 20, 08 17:07

Post #19 of 25 (393 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the short answer is no. Even your employer recognizes this. Simply act in accordance with his wishes, and you should be able to leave free of guilt and/or free of any hard feelings. Most companies will recognize and actually appreciate you giving your current employer substantial notice - as they will want the same down the road.

Go find a new job, then say you'd like to give your old boss a month's notice. He'll appreciate it, the new company will appreciate it, and it will give you a valuable commodity (referral) for any future career movement.

last tri in 83

Aug 20, 08 17:19

Post #20 of 25 (385 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The fact that you are fussing with this decision tells me you are a good person.

I would have a very hard time doing this but that's just me. I am old school loyal. Why not give them a year or two? Can't be that bad and would not seem to hurt your resume.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

Marco in BC

Aug 20, 08 17:35

Post #21 of 25 (372 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I would certainly be willing to stay if I could find another opportunity within the university that better suits me and, maybe, taps into my new management degree (I want to get out of the "technical" side of the research and get into the management side. My degree should help me with this...I think!)

ohh, you are so going to be in a world of hurt if you try to go in the private sector as an entry level manager: usually entry level managers get those assignments where you are responsible for everything, but have absolutely zero authority in terms of getting enough resources for making things happen. Also if the upper level folks decide that feature X needs to come in 2 weeks early and there is mandatory overtime to be done, guess who will be the one that will have to announce it to the workers... also if there are any sort of layoffs or firings again, who is going to be the lucky manager that gets to do it? And when you do quarterly/yearly reviews and you have a great employee that is making noises about their salary not being up to snuff, likely you won't have the authority to approve a salary increase either. Oh, and forget ever being promoted if you can't play the office politics game.

There is nothing more frustrating in my experience than being a low level middle manager, you have all the downsides of being a manager (responsibility, needing to give a good example, which usually means a lot of unpaid overtime, being accountable for things out of your control, etc. etc.) with absolutely none of the positives (being able to chart the direction of your group, being able to say 'no' when you'd like to, having a budget, being able to reward an outstanding employee by giving them a merit salary increase, ...)

The above might sound a bit gloomy, but ask some middle managers you trust and see what they say; in my experience, if you get to be at a director level and above management can be quite rewarding (I had a short stint as a 'director in anything but title' and it was a great feeling to be able to institute policies and make things work smoothly) but at a middle manager level, especially entry level, it just isn't worth it in my opinion unless you are a pro at the office politics game and can move up the ladder very quickly, in which case please ignore my advice :)

--
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.

(This post was edited by Marco in BC on Aug 20, 08 17:37)

matti58

Aug 20, 08 19:14

Post #22 of 25 (344 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Marco in BC] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you for your feedback.

ashayk

Aug 20, 08 23:31

Post #23 of 25 (318 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You shouldn't feel guilty, but you should also consider what a good working environment you obviously have. It's hard to find that kind of support elsewhere. Before leaving, you might consider how you can adapt the current situation into one you're more satisfied with, because no matter where else you go, there will always be issues. It sounds like you're in place where you have a certain amount of latitude and a boss who's in your corner. Not easy to find.

el fuser

Aug 21, 08 2:25

Post #24 of 25 (307 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [matti58] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You should absolutely stay and take advantage of this situation and get as much education as you can stomach, plus a little more.

Once you get middle aged, you lose your stomach for sitting through classes.

erichollins

Aug 21, 08 10:32

Post #25 of 25 (225 views)

Re: Should I have more allegiance to my employer? [Marco in BC] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actually agree a lot with your sentiment. I've realized this and that is why I'm trying to position myself to stay in the enlisted ranks and work from grunt to sargeant instead of getting into management. Being in management is something that isn't for me.
--
Patience isn't a virtue. Patience is a waste of my time.
http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/