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Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate
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JSA
Aug 14, 08 7:51
Post #1 of 39 (1409 views)
Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate
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The problem with lies is that eventually you forget what you told to whom and it becomes difficult to continue to perpetuate the falisy. Only the great George Costanza is equip enough to base his entire life on lies. The mere mortals of the world succum to human error and, eventually, get caught in their own tangled web.
Add to this dilemma a communist state that runs everything from the government to the sports to the media. In this case, you lose all plausible deniability when one agency reports a fact that another agency must later refute. In the U.S., for example, one entity can simply point to a report by another and accuse that other of making a mistake or not having all the facts, etc. With the Chicoms, that doesn't quite work.
Cheaters ...
BEIJING -- Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government's news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.
http://sports.espn.go.com/...ews/story?id=3534544
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
MJuric
Aug 14, 08 7:59
Post #2 of 39 (1395 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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Ok I'll give benefit of the doubt....but when doubt start to stack up.
Gymnasts have to be 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible for the Games. He's birthday is listed as Jan. 1, 1992.
"No REALLY I just happen to be JUST old enough...REALLY"
He herself told reporters after Wednesday's final that "my real age is 16. I don't pay any attention to what everyone says."
And the winner is...
"We already explained this very clearly. There's no need to discuss this thing again."...
comrade :-)
~Matt
peter826
Aug 14, 08 8:04
Post #3 of 39 (1385 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding?! I mean, the Chinese new year is not the same as our new year, and there new year varies each year. Possibly they count years differently! Nothing to see here, move along!
Al P Duez
Aug 14, 08 8:54
Post #4 of 39 (1328 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [peter826]
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The chinese calendar is lunar/solar, but since you can't see either the moon or the sun through the immense beijing smog and pollution their dates are off. However, logic holds that these gymnast would actually be younger not older in this theory. Therefore, they have really overstated the gymnast's ages.
(This post was
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Monk
Aug 14, 08 12:06
Post #5 of 39 (1221 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [MJuric]
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He is a she? I would have thought that to be more likely the case with the Synchronized Divers.
(This post was
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Ross
Aug 14, 08 12:42
Post #6 of 39 (1169 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [Al P Duez]
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"The chinese calendar is lunar/solar, but since you can't see either the moon or the sun through the immense beijing smog and pollution their dates are off."
Nice work!
one_lap
Aug 14, 08 12:58
Post #7 of 39 (1155 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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And the problem with a gov't conspiracy is that it's really hard to prove. An online news story (even one printed by the government) is easy to refute just by saying it was a mistake.
The IOC accepts a passport (which they have) as proof of age and unless you find these girls' original passports (if they ever existed) or original birth certificates (same problem), you're just howling at the moon. The US MSM will do a whole lot of howling, but the medals will stand.
In all likelihood, they cheated, but perhaps it is time to adopt a realistic view of the overall situation. What are we protecting under 16 year olds from? Is it worth protecting our under 16 year olds from that thing and risking losing to fraud abroad? If not, do we have 13 year olds who can beat theirs?
cycle-therapist
Aug 14, 08 13:06
Post #8 of 39 (1141 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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The pervs from "to catch a predator" thinks these girls are too young
_______________________
Derka, derka, derka.
JSA
Aug 14, 08 13:07
Post #9 of 39 (1140 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [one_lap]
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In all likelihood, they cheated, but perhaps it is time to adopt a realistic view of the overall situation. What are we protecting under 16 year olds from? Is it worth protecting our under 16 year olds from that thing and risking losing to fraud abroad? If not, do we have 13 year olds who can beat theirs?
You are missing the point. It is not a matter of protecting the under 16 year olds. It is the fact that there is a distinct advantage to using younger girls in gymnastics. The reasons are cited in another post from a couple different sources. In essence: they have no fear, they do not get as nervous b/c they have no contemplation of the enormity of what they are doing, they are more flexible, and their bodies are less "broken down." [Yeah, it may not make sense at first blush, but these are all established facts which is why coaches try to sneak in underage girls.]
So, it is not about protecting the girls. It is a matter of having an unfair advantage by using the young ones. It's cheating. Period.
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
one_lap
Aug 14, 08 13:34
Post #10 of 39 (1116 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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Without a doubt, using underage girls is cheating. My point is simply that the records to prove it either never existed or no longer do and the current mechanism to check is to look at the passport. And that's been done.
Thanks for the info on the reasons for the age requirement. I assumed the rule was designed to protect young children from the rigors of the sport (or something like that). Instead, it appears based on the (in my opinion) highly questionable idea that a child has less fear. I'm sure we can all trot out one-off examples of fearless children and adults. The flexibility issue I understand, but the fear issue is questionable, at best.
Again, I understand that it's the rule. My point is that perhaps, since it's gonna be impossible to enforce the rule in many countries, the rule should be examined to see if it's a good one. I find the "fear" idea a stupid one. And I find the idea of restricting an event to people who are more "broken down" even stupider. In my mind, if any rules are imposed, they should be to protect people from getting too brokent down. As to flexibility, what other sport restricts people who have a natural ability to do that sport? I'm inviting to get that one stuffed down my throat, but whatever. Perhaps height/weight should be the cutoff, not age?
bluemonkeytri
Aug 14, 08 13:38
Post #11 of 39 (1112 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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The real point is, these games were supposed to make the Chinese regime "transparent" and bring the world's microscope bearing down on their practices. To me, this is just a big thumb to the nose by the Chinese ruling regime, "we don't care, we can cheat and there's not a damn thing you world is going to do about it". I have seen nothing during the coverage of these games that suggests that bringing the Olympics to China is in any way going to foster some humanistic or democratic movement, or otherwise change the attitudes of this ruling government.
www.momslasagna.org, because Every Bite Saves a Life.
JSA
Aug 14, 08 13:41
Post #12 of 39 (1107 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [one_lap]
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I understand what you are saying about verifying age. The problem in this particular case is that there were actually two sets of documents and the Chicoms cannot explain why.
Found the stuff on the younger gymnasts from the other post. My better half was a gymnastics coach for several years and gave me the same explanation before someone posted this --
Why do younger gymnasts have an advantage?
They're lighter. The best gymnasts must be short and muscular with low body fat, which gives them a high strength-to-weight ratio and a greater ability to lift themselves into the air. Girls reach their ideal ratio before puberty; after that point, between ages 14 and 18, they gain weight and have difficulty keeping up their strength. Some coaches also believe that younger gymnasts worry less—making them psychologically less encumbered as well.
On Monday, former Olympic coach Bela Karolyi
accused the Chinese
of fielding 12- and 14-year-old gymnasts. If true, this wouldn't be a new practice: China's
Yang Yun
, for example, confessed during an interview on government-sponsored television that she was only 14 when she won two bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics.
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
JSA
Aug 14, 08 13:43
Post #13 of 39 (1102 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [bluemonkeytri]
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Completely agree. I have seen nothing to suggest that sending the Olympics to the Chicoms was in any way, shape, or form a good idea.
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
parkito
Aug 14, 08 15:36
Post #14 of 39 (1057 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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This is reaching a tipping point, and in the wrong direction I might add. But, stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, if the Chinese are willing to lie about something as blatant as age of an athlete, what does that say about what else they would willingly do?
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
dave_w
Aug 14, 08 17:20
Post #15 of 39 (1017 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [parkito]
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Looks like others may be too young as well. As I've said elsewhere, I'm thinking China WILL win in the medal count, whatever it takes.
"Under Olympic regulations, female gymnasts must turn 16 years old during the year of competition. According to their passports, which determine Olympic eligibility, He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Yang Yilin are all 16. But Chinese online records and local newspaper articles have presented different information, raising questions about these three gynmasts' true ages. A 2006 biography from the local sports bureau where He was registered gave her date of birth as January 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A story earlier this year in the
China Daily
, the country's largest English-language newspaper, also reported that she is 14 years old. Another local-level competition roll had the date of birth of Jiang, who is only 32 kg (70.5 lbs.), as October 1, 1993, making her also 14. And from 2004-2006, the biographical data for Yang on the State General Administration of Sport's website listed her date of birth as August 26, 1993, one year later than what Beijing Olympic records show. "
http://www.time.com/...832312,00.html?imw=Y
"It's all about self-esteem"
parkito
Aug 14, 08 17:46
Post #16 of 39 (1002 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [dave_w]
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You know, at the very least, they should stop calling it "WOMENS" Gymnastics.
Otherwise, those guys who keep getting arrested on that NBC news show (Dateline?) for hitting on girls will have a legitimate case to make.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
chainpin
Aug 14, 08 17:47
Post #17 of 39 (1000 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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It's a fact of life, cheating is part of China's DNA. Fake Guccis bags, illegal DVD's, large scale cheating on the GMAT, bait and switch of a friggin singer, underage gymnists, and on and on. Everything is about creating a facade of greatness, but in the end they only look stupid.
"Capitalism is tough on the participants that get beat by it."
Crapola
majorminor
Aug 14, 08 20:18
Post #18 of 39 (947 views)
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JSA
Aug 14, 08 20:26
Post #19 of 39 (943 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [majorminor]
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On the whole, I think the Chinese may be out-learning us, and out-working us.
You really think so? Name the last innovation that came out of China? China has systematically stolen technological advances from all over the world. They have industrial spies throughout the US and the rest of the world who steal innovations and bring them to China. They have no regard for patent law or intellectual property law. The only thing they seem to excell at is cheating and stealing. Seriously. That's not bitterness, that's a fact of life. As far as out-working us, maybe. But, that is b/c they are forced to do so.
Now, I completely agree that we, as a nation, are lazy and fail to take advantage of all the opportunities available to us. Completely agree. I also agree with much of the rest of what you wrote, but, not this one.
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
majorminor
Aug 14, 08 20:48
Post #20 of 39 (932 views)
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JSA
Aug 14, 08 20:53
Post #21 of 39 (929 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [majorminor]
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You do know that the US was just an agricultural and manufacturing outsourcee for Europe until about a hundred years ago, don't you?
Europe (esp. the British) thought of us, what we think of the Chinese now, back then.
- Good point. Well taken. However, we were not as sneaky and conniving as those little bastards ... ;-)
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
dave_w
Aug 14, 08 21:22
Post #22 of 39 (910 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [JSA]
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Watching the women's individual all around finals right now, and according to the broadcast crew, the Chinese are getting oddly high marks...
"It's all about self-esteem"
JSA
Aug 14, 08 21:29
Post #23 of 39 (906 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [dave_w]
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Watching the women's individual all around finals right now, and according to the broadcast crew, the Chinese are getting oddly high marks...
Nastia just got the mark she deserved on the beam (for once). I understand that we are watching/listening to American commentators, but, I agree with you. They are pointing out some questionable scores...
_______________________________________________
"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike
The people who keep me moving:
TRANSITION -
Get Moving!
chainpin
Aug 15, 08 10:10
Post #24 of 39 (813 views)
Re: Update on the Chicom Gymnist Age Debate [majorminor]
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Wow, those are some really sweeping statements. Is that really your bottom line impression of 2008 China?
If so, you are gonna be one bitter dude for the forseeable future. The global economy is light you up every night you choose to watch the national news.
Your statement of, "Everything is about creating a facade of greatness, but in the end they only look stupid" is really ignorance on your part. The "great facade" is an attempt to be the biggest and best host EVER of the Olympic Games. Yes, they have made some embarrassing mistakes, but many don't understand Asian culture and why they put themselves so far out of their own way to be a good host.
The "perfect" face of that little girl matched to the "perfect" voice of the other girl was their own way of showing the bright future of their youth. Disingenuous, yes, but Hollywood and the music industry pull this stuff all the time.
And it's not symbolic of some diabolical bait and switch.
Some Americans are so selfish, they don't see this or understand it for what it is; a dramatic entry onto the world stage; their attempt to put best foot forward.
They are here, whether you accept them or not.
It's not a zero sum game, you know. Their gain is not necessarily our loss. It can be, if we get into trade wars and blame them for our own failure to capitalize on opportunity. It's like the Dell Theory of world peace. The world is a much safer place when we all share a supply chain.
You might consider separating in your mind, the Chinese government, from the average Chinese citizen. I have worked with a group of about 30 Chinese engineers for about 5 years now that reside in Beijing. I have been in their homes, and they in mine. I have found them to be nothing short of professional and enjoyable to work with.
Cheating is definitely NOT in these men and women's DNA, that I have seen anyway. In fact, I sometimes wonder why they go above and beyond what is required of them. I think their work ethic is probably what the average work ethic in the US was back in the 1950's.
They want the same things for themselves and their families that you and I do; education, economic opportunity, sports, and a prosperous future for their kids.
On the whole, I think the Chinese may be out-learning us, and out-working us.
Yes, they have issues, intellectual property rights, human rights. The people I have met are very keen on improving their legal, academic, and economic systems from within. They know the government is too powerful, but their approach is pragmatic. They have to work with what they've got. They have no other choice.
Read up on some of your American history and the heavy handed treatment of minorities (Afr.Am. and native) that has happened in this country. I'm not excusing their's, but they will have to learn the hard way, through internal struggles, just like we did.
I have had several ask me in different ways, a question like, "Why do so many Americans fail to take advantage of a system and country with so many opportunities?"
I honestly don't have a good answer for them. I don't understand those Americans either.
Sorry for the rant, I just wish more people knew each other personally, rather than eating up that populist Lou Dobb's isolationist crap every night on CNN.
Good post and I appreciate your insights. I stand by my comment that "Everything is about creating a facade of greatness, but in the end they only look stupid", as I believe it's true. Maybe silly would be a better word than stupid. And I'm not really bitter about China, I hope they continue to drive GDP growth at all costs, it's good for the global economy.
And your comment "I'm not excusing their's, but they will have to learn the hard way, through internal struggles, just like we did," in reference to the treatment of minorities is interesting. And I have read up on US history in this respect--perhaps your familiar with the book
Before the Mayflower
and the work of Howard Zinn. Sure, they have to figure things out, but come on, it's 2008. Look at the way they treat those young kids, just like dogs. And all for what? For the glory of gold and the facade of greatness.
And don't get me wrong, I think the people of China are no better or worse than anyone else on this planet, and I fully accept them. Their government needs some work though!
You never mentioned the underage cheating of the Chinese woman gymnastic team, any thoughts on that "mistake?"
"Capitalism is tough on the participants that get beat by it."
Crapola
majorminor
Aug 15, 08 12:04
Post #25 of 39 (753 views)
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