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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Where do you see evidence of God?

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moulli

Nov 18, 09 14:39

Post #1 of 226 (1325 views)

Where do you see evidence of God?	Can't Post

My apologies for another religious thread. The reason I start one is (a) because, in general, I'm not nearly as interested in what someone believes as why they believe it (b) this place is the only place I can try to learn about such things.

My question: In these endless religion themed threads people say that they believe is God. That is what they believe in. They also sometimes state that they see evidence for God (the "why"), but I can't recall being given concrete examples.

I would be truly grateful if some people would be prepared to post what evidence they see for God or more generally, why they believe in God.

I do not want this thread to turn into a bash religion thread. If people are generous enough to post their thoughts so that I can try to learn another perspective can everyone else please be respectful. Appropriate responses to people posting their personal evidence is "that's interesting" or "could you please clarify what you mean by" and/or "thank you". If you want to post "that's not evidence" or "I disagree" please take it elsewhere.

Thanks in advance.

LorenzoP

Nov 18, 09 14:55

Post #2 of 226 (1302 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For this discussion to be interesting - we need to assume that there is a God. We don't have to assume that this God is Christian, Muslim or God of any particular religion. Nor do we have to assume that this God has any properties we might expect a sentient being would have - such as merciful, loving or etc.

We might simply define God as the Fundamental Substrate of Creation

We might not even need any evidence, but merely a useful theory - a theory that is elegant, a theory that answers more questions then it raises, etc.

Is his a useful approach?

rick_pcfl

Nov 18, 09 14:56

Post #3 of 226 (1301 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

One of the ways I see it is in the body/makeup of humans and other animals. When I consider all the "mechanisms" that make the body work, I don't see how that could have evolved out of a one celled organism. Take vision for example. I can see something that is in front of me, all the while, my brain interprets the signals that the optic nerves relay to it (I'm not in the medical field, so I'm sure I'm not accurate here). My brain is then able to gauge how far away something is, and the speed with which it is moving. Many other (just as) amazing things are happening in my body at the same time.

I just don't see how all these things could be without the design of God.

hgrong

Nov 18, 09 15:14

Post #4 of 226 (1280 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You say you want to know why people believe what they do. I will give you an ardent atheist's position (and no, I do not intend to bash religion, just to give another perspective).

"Where do you see evidence of God?"

I do not see any evidence of a god.

That is, in and of itself, why I do not believe in a god.

moulli

Nov 18, 09 15:19

Post #5 of 226 (1276 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [rick_pcfl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ahh, the argument of complexity.

Thanks very much, I was a bit worried that no-one would reply. Really appreciate it.

eganski

Nov 18, 09 15:20

Post #6 of 226 (1270 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [hgrong] [In reply to]	Can't Post

No, he said he wanted to know why people believe in God.

moulli

Nov 18, 09 15:24

Post #7 of 226 (1271 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [LorenzoP] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah I deliberately didn't specify a Christian god (although clearly most people on this forum who believe in a creator believe in a Christian one). It would be great if people believing in any God would chime in with why they believe.

"We might not even need any evidence, but merely a useful theory - a theory that is elegant, a theory that answers more questions then it raises, etc."

God = Ockham's razor. Yeah, I guess it is neat and tidy :-)

oldandslow

Nov 18, 09 15:29

Post #8 of 226 (1264 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I guess that I see God in everything (my children, nature, this forum ... ;). I don't see it as empirical evidence for or against God (I went down that road many decades ago). By faith, I see it as evidence, and fully appreciate that it is not evidence at all to others. It is in the nature of faith. BTW, not strictly on subject, but here is the text to the anthem that we're singing this week:

i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes - e.e. cummings

(This post was edited by oldandslow on Nov 18, 09 15:33)

moulli

Nov 18, 09 15:35

Post #9 of 226 (1256 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [hgrong] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks but I'm familiar with what I'll call the considered atheist's position. I'm also familiar with the non-considered atheist / agnostics' position and the non-considered believer's position (both sides taking a "I don't really think about it / it's just what I was told" sort of approach).

What I'm not familiar with is the considered believer's position. People who have had experiences or seen evidence or can think of evidence for a God.

Is it just a feeling, is it a particular argument (irreducible complexity, the world is beautiful), is it the existence of holy books, have you seen a miracle? That's what I'm interested in.

moulli

Nov 18, 09 15:41

Post #10 of 226 (1241 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [oldandslow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I did wonder if anyone would reply "there is no evidence, that's why it is called faith". I think you put it nicely "By faith, I see it as evidence".

Thanks

sphere

Nov 18, 09 16:25

Post #11 of 226 (1201 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The more interesting question to me is, what would evidence for a godless universe look like? Essentially the same question, minus the confirmation bias.

Consider the parable of two men discussing Heliocentrism versus Geocentrism. The Geocentrist argues that the sun revolves around the earth "because that's clearly how it appears, when one observes how the sun moves across the sky."

-to which the Heliocentrist responds, "well, what would it look like if it were the other way around?"

Irrigation stops a smelt's beating heart

slowbern

Nov 18, 09 17:11

Post #12 of 226 (1167 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There are a couple of books out there on this topic. One book that I found particularly helpful was called Losing Your Religion; Finding Your Faith. It helped me to come to grips with some of the stuff that I had problems with in Catholicism,

2 interesting people that I have heard some interviews on this topic are Anne Rice and Peggy Noonan. Both of these women were born and raised Catholic, became atheist, and then found their Faith back in Catholicism in their middle ages. Their spiritual journeys are interesting in me. Anne Rice actually has written about this in the appendix of her novel Christ the Lord, Out of Egypt. Peggy Noonan writes a little of her journey in a book called John Paul the Great.

For my part, I was born and raised Catholic. Like many people, I lost my faith in my 20's. It is hard to explain how this happened, and I'm not sure I can articulate it. I read some of what others write here and it sounds kind of familiar. I was looking at science and the history of the Church and asking myself, how could there be a God? Also the other religions...what made mine right and their's wrong? Plus, there was so much disillusionment in my life. My wife was diagnosed with cancer, things were tough at work, I was witness to a lot of suffering. The concept of God didn't make sense to me for a period of time.

A few years ago (in my early 30's) I went through a period where I was depressed. It was a hard time. I didn't really know where to turn. It was affecting all aspects of my life.

I guess I can say that God found me. It was very helpful for me in my recovery to know that He was with me. My religion is mine. I think I am pretty tolerant of other people's faiths (and even their lack of faith). I really don't try to convert people except by being an example. I don't preach to people.

I know there are still many questions about how God relates to the universe. The conversation interests me but does not shake my faith anymore. My faith and relationship with God is in me and that is what I can understand (as much as I can).

Bernie

_______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009

jepvb

Nov 18, 09 17:18

Post #13 of 226 (1160 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

...from the fact that there is approximately 10 to the 50th power kg of mass in the universe...oh yeah, and my 2 kids...

last tri in 83

Nov 18, 09 17:28

Post #14 of 226 (1154 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Nature, the amazing design and beauty of it all. Who could design something so complex?
The human body, the birth of my kids.
Sex, who would think to make it so good you would want to do it all the time and thus populate the planet.
Answered prayer. sure it could be a random chance thing but at times it's so specific that it takes you aback.
Medical miracles -an example is my brother who was cured of stage 4 lymphoma with only one round of chemo. according to the doc-no medical basis for his recovery.
People healed of all sorts of emotional disorders, drugs, abusive relationships
Hearts changed, healing of hurting people.
The way God reaches out to me where I am, through business, family, relationships. Not where I always think it should be.
The power of a group coming together for a common goal to help someone.

_____________________________________________
No one appreciates my humor anymore. --Sphere

Bone Idol

Nov 18, 09 18:25

Post #15 of 226 (1125 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This thread is already a good example (and it probably cannot be other) of the reason that the non-religious will always be frustrated by the religious concept of evidence and reason.

"Evidence?" they say. "Sure!"

Step 1 "Assume a god, and assume everything is ultimately attributable to this god"
Step 2 "Voil�!! Evidence of God is everywhere"

It doesn't work without step 1, but that's the precondition they insist upon. Religion is the classic example of "beg the question" logical fallacy.

The only 'argument' that hold any real water is "It's a belief, and human beliefs aren't always rational". I can grant that point.

last tri in 83

Nov 18, 09 18:35

Post #16 of 226 (1110 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [Bone Idol] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not bad. We made it 15 posts until the smarmy non-believer shows up to subtly proclaim his thoughtful superiority over the lemming-like believer.

_____________________________________________
No one appreciates my humor anymore. --Sphere

JSA

Nov 18, 09 18:39

Post #17 of 226 (1104 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The miracle of life and the complexity of the human body.

The amazing intricacies of nature.

The sudden appearance of "signs" when they are needed most.

The beauty of a woman's form.

The fact that there simply is no possible way that all of "this" simply "happened" by "accident" or "circumstance."

The fact that I walked away after being hit by a car traveling in excess of 65 mph while I was riding my bike. The state trooper, the local police officer, the ER doc, and my own doc all said (1) I should be dead and (2) there is no logical explanation as to why I was not seriously injured.

I believe in evolution, but that a higher power was behind it. I believe in the big bang theory, but that a higher power caused it. I believe in an afterlife. I believe in karma. I believe in spirits. I believe those who have passed continue to look after us.

I simply have seen way, way too much in my life that cannot be explained without the existance of a higher power.

I am a man of science. I am an engineer by education, attorney by profession, and possibly Vulcan by birth (but we are not sure about that yet). I demand proof for everything. Everything. I base my life on logic and facts. Everything must be explained. With that background, the only logically explanation for many of the issues listed above is a higher power.

_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!

IS40

Nov 18, 09 18:46

Post #18 of 226 (1099 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Is it just a feeling, is it a particular argument (irreducible complexity, the world is beautiful), is it the existence of holy books, have you seen a miracle? That's what I'm interested in.

Yes, I guess you could call it a feelng. For me, and most I know, it's not an "argument." Yes, I've seen miracles, but that's not why I believe. Miracles will only get your attention. They won't keep you in the hard times.

I think there are probably many reasons why I believe. Maybe what might interest you is why I still believe, despite undergoing much more hardship in life after becoming a Christian.

I don't mean to take up more space here than you genuinely meant to allow, so I'll try to get to the point. I've found that He alone has the words of eternal life. He alone can satisfy my deepest desire to be loved as I really am�in spite of who I really am. He is the Bread of Life.

I've lived as a hedonist. Knowing His presence is much more satisfying.

chainpin

Nov 18, 09 18:46

Post #19 of 226 (1099 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jesus was on my toast this morning.

I didn't want to eat Jesus, so I went hungry.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

JSA

Nov 18, 09 18:48

Post #20 of 226 (1096 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [Bone Idol] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

That simply is not true. You do not need to assume the existence of God. But, I challenge you to explain the creation of the universe WITHOUT the possibility of a higher power.

Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist, has written very persuasively on the topic of whether the theory of the creation of the universe can be explained without the existence of a "God." Ross says that, by definition,

Time is that dimension in which cause and effect phenomena take place. . . . If time's beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. This conclusion is powerfully important to our understanding of who God is and who or what God isn't. It tells us that the creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe.

The explanation of creation, without the existence of God, has stumped the greatest minds of our time.

Stephen Hawking has said, in his writings, "the actual point of creation lies outside the scope of presently known laws of physics," and a less well-known but very distinguished cosmologist, Professor Alan Guth from MIT, says the "instant of creation remains unexplained."

Both Hawking and Guth have postulated the existence of a higher power in order to cause the "spark" that lead to the universe.

None of these theories presume the existence of God. To the contrary. They start with his lack of being, then are forced to the alternative position.

_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!

jepvb

Nov 18, 09 18:57

Post #21 of 226 (1088 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [Bone Idol] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I'm not religious, and my "concept" of evidence and reason are not based on any religious concepts. The question posed by the thread is a subjective one - "Where do YOU see evidence." It's an innocent question and one that you should leave alone. I don't think that the existence of my 2 kids empirically proves the existence of God in a scientific or legal sense to anybody, nor should it. But it sure as hell makes me think a lot about it. The massive amount of mass and energy in the universe also makes me favor the notion that something created it...something far beyond my comprehension. This statement does not assume a god in the first place. I simply fixed on a concept and chose god over no-god. You chose the opposite - good for you. This doesn't in the least make you smarter, more rational, or more logical than a deist. Other things might, but not that.

last tri in 83

Nov 18, 09 19:04

Post #22 of 226 (1077 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Excellent!

_____________________________________________
No one appreciates my humor anymore. --Sphere

moulli

Nov 18, 09 19:24

Post #23 of 226 (1058 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [slowbern] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Too many replies for me to write back individually but thanks very much everyone for your thoughts, I really appreciate it.

slowbern: Thanks for the book suggestion.

trail

Nov 18, 09 19:45

Post #24 of 226 (1044 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

The explanation of creation, without the existence of God, has stumped the greatest minds of our time.

wonder bread

Nov 18, 09 20:13

Post #25 of 226 (1034 views)

Re: Where do you see evidence of God? [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here's mine:
1) Have had religious experiences... nothing approaching what could be described as charismatic but still compelling.
2) The gap in development between humans and the rest of life is greater than between all other species. No other species has religion, poetry, theater, etc. If they have things that resemble these things they are so primitive by comparison that I have doubts that this unique gap could be achieved by chance. I have heard some strictly biological explanations for this but I think they are a stretch.
3) Universal sense of justice. Efforts to reconcile the mechanism of survival of the fittest with the phenomenon of "justice" are contrived and unsatisfying. Explaining altruism without theology requires sketchy psychology.
4) Beauty and an idea. Not that everything is so beautiful but that we recognize anything as beautiful. Acknowledgement of the beauty of nature does not seem to have an evolutionary purpose.

The theory that beauty and justice are reflections of a deeper spiritual reality is very satisfying to me in intellectual and emotional ways.

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