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saddleback - this pissed me off
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iron_mike
Aug 17, 08 9:10
Post #1 of 27 (722 views)
saddleback - this pissed me off
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i live in africa, but was able to catch the saddleback debate in CNN. i'm not an american citizen, by way of disclosure, so i won't be voting in the elections.
one thing about the debate stuck with me throughout the day, though. to both candidates, when framing his questions about foreign policy, the host said, "we are without a doubt the most blessed nation in the world; we are blessed to be a blessing" or something like that.
wtf? what does that mean? that america is the greatest country on earth? or literally the country/people "chosen" or preferred by god? it bugged me then, and now, and i'm curious to see if anyone else had picked up on it (and how they interpret it).
-mike
____________________________________
http://individual.utoronto.ca/callaghan
sphere
Aug 17, 08 9:32
Post #2 of 27 (711 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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what does that mean? that america is the greatest country on earth?
Pretty much. It's a running theme around here, for as long as I can remember.
or literally the country/people "chosen" or preferred by god?
That too. It's rarely, if ever, explicitly described in these terms, but there's little room for honest objective interpretation.
it bugged me then, and now, and i'm curious to see if anyone else had picked up on it (and how they interpret it).
There's no "picking up on it;" it's standard fare in American politics - we expect it. Demand it, even.
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
parkito
Aug 17, 08 10:01
Post #3 of 27 (696 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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we are without a doubt the most blessed nation in the world
I've heard this before and I have always taken it as meaning that within the national boundaries we have incredible amounts of natural resources, including fresh water, besides metals, oil and rare earth minerals. We have an amazing amount of arable land suitable for growing all kinds of things. Lots of open space that people can move about easily, and lots of natural scenic wonders. What's not to like about the place? On top of that, we have a fairly decent, hands off government that lets most people do what they want.
Finally, we have only had a couple of major wars on U.S. soil in over the last two hundred years. The most significant of those was the Civil War, which confined most of the damage to the South. I firmly believe that part of the U.S. economic might comes from the fact that it hasn't had to rebuild its infrastructure every 20-50 years due to some major conflict. I think a lot of European countries bear an extra "tax" which is a handicap.
So, yes, I think this country is extremely blessed. I don't think it has much to to do with any sort of religion. More luck and serendipity than anything.
My second place vote would be Hawaii before the white people showed. ;-)
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
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GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
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Brevity is the soul of wit. (
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dave_w
Aug 17, 08 10:08
Post #4 of 27 (688 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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What Parkito said. Definitely not something to be upset over, actually the opposite. Think of the secular equivalent of "blessed" as "lucky". The pastor's point was that we ARE at an extremely good place in the world, geographically, politically, and economically, and that we therefore have great responsibility to share that good fortune.
"It's all about self-esteem"
slowbern
Aug 17, 08 10:28
Post #5 of 27 (678 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [parkito]
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My second place vote would be Hawaii before the white people showed. ;-)
LOL. You might not have thought that if you were one of the slaves that was buried alive under the pillars of their temples so that your spirit would bless the building.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
slowbern
Aug 17, 08 10:32
Post #6 of 27 (671 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [sphere]
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what does that mean? that america is the greatest country on earth?
Pretty much. It's a running theme around here, for as long as I can remember.
or literally the country/people "chosen" or preferred by god?
That too. It's rarely, if ever, explicitly described in these terms, but there's little room for honest objective interpretation.
For a historical reference read William Bradford's Of Plymouth Plantation. The New World was often referred to as "The Citty on the Hill" which was an allusion to the second coming of Jerusalem.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
sphere
Aug 17, 08 10:35
Post #7 of 27 (669 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [dave_w]
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Definitely not something to be upset over, actually the opposite. Think of the secular equivalent of "blessed" as "lucky".
Except that they're not equivalent terms (I think this is at the heart of the complaint). When a religious leader uses the term
blessed
, they're essentially eliminating luck and happenstance from the equation.
It's nothing for you to be upset over, because your god didn't relegate you to the live among the less blessed. ;)
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 10:47
Post #8 of 27 (661 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [slowbern]
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There are different strains of American exceptionalism, some much more defensible than others.
I don't think there should be much argument over the fact that we're blessed- or lucky, if you prefer- in our natural gifts. Geography, resources, etc etc.
I think it's also true that America stands out among nations throughout history as being a credal entity, and those credal values of our's have served as ideals for much of the world to strive for. (Not to say that we always live up to those ideals ourselves.)
There is also a version of exceptionalism that sees America as an outright instrument of God, in addition to holding some privileged place in God's heart, and I think that achieves full blown heresy.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
dave_w
Aug 17, 08 11:41
Post #9 of 27 (637 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [sphere]
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Definitely not something to be upset over, actually the opposite. Think of the secular equivalent of "blessed" as "lucky".
Except that they're not equivalent terms (I think this is at the heart of the complaint). When a religious leader uses the term
blessed
, they're essentially eliminating luck and happenstance from the equation.
It's nothing for you to be upset over, because your god didn't relegate you to the live among the less blessed. ;)
Good point. I'm thinking that the bulk of people inclined to help are not going with that mindset, but maybe that's just because I don't think that way, and we all tend to think that others are like us.
"It's all about self-esteem"
slowbern
Aug 17, 08 12:48
Post #10 of 27 (610 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [vitus979]
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I don't think there should be much argument over the fact that we're blessed- or lucky, if you prefer- in our natural gifts. Geography, resources, etc etc.
I think it would be difficult to argue this for sure. I don't think it is a stretch to say that the the U.S. was blessed with far-seeing founding fathers either. The Constitution has served our nation well. Sometimes you make your own luck as the saying goes.
There is also a version of exceptionalism that sees America as an outright instrument of God, in addition to holding some privileged place in God's heart, and I think that achieves full blown heresy.
This gets into the Citty on a Hill reference from Of Plymouth Plantation. I agree with you that it is rather vain to think that God has set your people apart to be special from all others. You are also right in saying that we have fallen into this trap in our Nation's histroy (Manifest Destiny for instance).
One thing that I find amazing is in talking to people about the history of this nation, many seem to be embarrassed about the contributions that the Puritans made to developing our culture. But they were terribly brave and extremely hard workers. I don't think that it is a stretch to say that our growth would have been stunted by several decades and taken many different twists and turns if they had not been who they were. Look at the history of King Phillip's War to see what I mean.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 12:53
Post #11 of 27 (604 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [slowbern]
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You are also right in saying that we have fallen into this trap in our Nation's histroy (Manifest Destiny for instance).
We're America, and we're here on a mission from God. lol.
many seem to be embarrassed about the contributions that the Puritans made to developing our culture. But they were terribly brave and extremely hard workers.
Hard working for sure, but sick, joyless puppies.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
slowbern
Aug 17, 08 12:59
Post #12 of 27 (599 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [vitus979]
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Hard working for sure, but sick, joyless puppies.
I think their "joy" was just found in different ways. I consider other cultures (modern ones) and I would not think that they are joyous by my standards. But I bet many people in the world would feel satisfied at the end of the day. I think about people in Afghanistans or othe Islamic countries. Maybe throw the Chinese in their too. I don't know that the Puritans were much different from them in the ways I am thinking.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
vitus979
Aug 17, 08 13:04
Post #13 of 27 (598 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [slowbern]
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consider other cultures (modern ones) and I would not think that they are joyous by my standards.
I think you might want to open yourself to the possibility that some cultures think that feeling joy is itself sinful. Just sayin'.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Al P Duez
Aug 17, 08 13:10
Post #14 of 27 (596 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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you also live in one of the most blessed places in the world; blessed by all of the millions of $ we send to your continent in aid.
Thom
Aug 17, 08 17:19
Post #15 of 27 (534 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [slowbern]
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LOL. You might not have thought that if you were one of the slaves that was buried alive under the pillars of their temples so that your spirit would bless the building.
Michener fan?
slowbern
Aug 17, 08 17:25
Post #16 of 27 (528 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [Thom]
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Michener fan?
Yes. I think he is the master of the genre.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
smkyle1
Aug 17, 08 19:35
Post #17 of 27 (498 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [Al P Duez]
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Martin Luther King, Jr said, "Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."
I'd add we, as a nation shouldn't overlook the circumstances of economic injustice that make philanthropy possible!
epsdan
Aug 17, 08 22:26
Post #18 of 27 (453 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [smkyle1]
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Is the inference here that all economic diversity is "economic injustice", and thus philanthropy required?
iron_mike
Aug 18, 08 1:44
Post #19 of 27 (440 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [vitus979]
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I don't think there should be much argument over the fact that we're blessed- or lucky, if you prefer- in our natural gifts. Geography, resources, etc etc.
I think it's also true that America stands out among nations throughout history as being a credal entity, and those credal values of our's have served as ideals for much of the world to strive for. (Not to say that we always live up to those ideals ourselves.)
lots of natural resources and splendor, for sure - i don't think any reasonable person would argue that. but "undoubtedly the most blessed?" that's very different from saying "very blessed." it was a written comment, that was repeated twice.
-mike
____________________________________
http://individual.utoronto.ca/callaghan
iron_mike
Aug 18, 08 1:47
Post #20 of 27 (439 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [Al P Duez]
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you also live in one of the most blessed places in the world; blessed by all of the millions of $ we send to your continent in aid.
al, i realize that you don't know me, where i'm from, where i live, or what i do there. your above statement doesn't seem to be ironic, either, though if it was supposed to be, i apologize.
i only log in here very rarely these days, but that's about the most ignorant statement i've seen on slowtwitch in ages.
-mike
____________________________________
http://individual.utoronto.ca/callaghan
triblaq
Aug 18, 08 7:02
Post #21 of 27 (388 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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one thing about the debate stuck with me throughout the day, though. to both candidates, when framing his questions about foreign policy, the host said, "we are without a doubt the most blessed nation in the world; we are blessed to be a blessing" or something like that.
wtf? what does that mean? that america is the greatest country on earth? or literally the country/people "chosen" or preferred by god? it bugged me then, and now, and i'm curious to see if anyone else had picked up on it (and how they interpret it).
-mike
This terminology is standard fare in America. Especially among evangelicals. Who are Rick Warren's main audience. I understand it to mean America is basically God's chosen nation and because we've been so blessed we have a responsibility to bless others who are less fortunate. It's only partially a statement about natural resources. More a statement of our Position amonst the nations, in God's eyes and the responsibility that comes with that. I'd say this view is held by a large portion of the population. Hence, whatever we want to do in the world is blessed by God. I pick it up all the time since I spend alot of time around evangelicals. What we end up with is the view that if you are at all critical of America, you not only hate America but you're against God.
____________________________________________________
"All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, and to, and why." - James Thurber
YaHey
Aug 18, 08 7:15
Post #22 of 27 (376 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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Dude, there are poor minority people living in Africa. Why are you there? You realize that there are poor minority people in America that you could be helping instead of flying accross the world?
-------------------------------------
Fatmouse
Aug 18, 08 7:21
Post #23 of 27 (372 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [iron_mike]
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I've listened to a number of Rick Warren's sessions and this is what I think he means. It is not necessarily that we are somehow God's chosen people. However, by whatever stroke of luck we have been born in the wealthiest and most powerful nation the world has ever seen. By this grace we are obligated to help others who have not been as fortunate as us.
_____________________________________
"Also, of course the United States can't do everything. It does not follow that we should do nothing." AF
dave_w
Aug 18, 08 8:19
Post #24 of 27 (328 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [triblaq]
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In Reply To
one thing about the debate stuck with me throughout the day, though. to both candidates, when framing his questions about foreign policy, the host said, "we are without a doubt the most blessed nation in the world; we are blessed to be a blessing" or something like that.
wtf? what does that mean? that america is the greatest country on earth? or literally the country/people "chosen" or preferred by god? it bugged me then, and now, and i'm curious to see if anyone else had picked up on it (and how they interpret it).
-mike
This terminology is standard fare in America. Especially among evangelicals. Who are Rick Warren's main audience. I understand it to mean America is basically God's chosen nation and because we've been so blessed we have a responsibility to bless others who are less fortunate. It's only partially a statement about natural resources. More a statement of our Position amonst the nations, in God's eyes and the responsibility that comes with that. I'd say this view is held by a large portion of the population. Hence, whatever we want to do in the world is blessed by God. I pick it up all the time since I spend alot of time around evangelicals. What we end up with is the view that if you are at all critical of America, you not only hate America but you're against God.
Soooo, does this mean you think most Americans are evangelicals?
"It's all about self-esteem"
dave_w
Aug 18, 08 8:26
Post #25 of 27 (320 views)
Re: saddleback - this pissed me off [Fatmouse]
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However, by whatever stroke of luck we have been born in the wealthiest and most powerful nation the world has ever seen. By this grace we are obligated to help others who have not been as fortunate as us.
Ding ding! Especially with technology making the world "smaller", I think most Americans realize we were very lucky to be born in this country, as opposed to many others. There
is
a failing here to recognize that there are lots of other countries that would have been great to be born into, maybe (God forbid) even better than the US.
"It's all about self-esteem"
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