Calendar
Retailers
Stack & Reach
Custom Geometry Calculator
Online Training Log
MAIN
INDEX
RULES &
LEGEND
LOG
IN
Search
this forum
this category
all forums
for
All words
Any words
Whole Phrase
(
options
)
Newsletter Signup
Slowtwitch Forums
:
Lavender Room
:
thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post
1
2
3
View All
Tri Forum
Classifieds
Lavender Room
Jobs
The Womens
Print Thread
sparkymcm
Aug 20, 08 6:32
Post #1 of 70 (583 views)
thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post
Can't Post
jacknine -waiting with interest for you to backup your comments and will come back to you when you do...until then I have nothing to comment on
and here are the comments as a reminder
That freedom and democracy is the natural state of things and somehow will remain so without defending it.
That societies can succeed by rewarding sloth and punishing success (the US is working on that one too)
That denying ones own culture out of fear that it may offend, makes everybody get along.
What does Europe believe in these days other then more vacation time and blaming the US for most of the worlds problems?
(This post was
edited
by sparkymcm on Aug 20, 08 6:37)
LorenzoP
Aug 20, 08 7:11
Post #2 of 70 (565 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [sparkymcm]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
a long but interesting article that nails it on the head . . .
http://www.alternet.org/...e/printversion/95126
HeartlessNomad
Aug 20, 08 8:17
Post #3 of 70 (543 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [sparkymcm]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Eh, America is getting dumber and fatter, whats your point?? Americans lack the ability to accept blame for anything and kids aren't dumb and lazy, the tests are just too damn hard for them...
Not to mention the pinnacle of American ignorance and stupidity:
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 9:05
Post #4 of 70 (524 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [sparkymcm]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Thanks, I look forward to an interesting and civil discourse.
I will use the term Europe broadly, at times a little too much. As for background, I was born and raised in Denmark and have lived in Germany, The Netherlands and the UK before moving to the US 25 years ago. I have in effect spend half my life in Europe, half in the US.
Let me jump in at the deep end right of the bat.
Except for France, which is border line, Europe is no longer having children at a rate that is required to sustain a healthy society while at the same time creating an enormous pension liability that requires the exact opposite.
This is not subject to debate, it is fact. I can go look up actual birthrates but take my word for it, all European countries are way below the 2.2 children per adult woman that statistically maintains population equilibrium.
In other words, Europe is having more and more old people who expect to be taken care off while there are fewer and fewer people in the work force supporting them.
The argument has been "sure, but we will just increase immigration to make up the difference"
The assumption was and still is in some circles, that immigrants would embrace their new culture and pick up the slack.
It is obvious now that that has not happened, if anything, they think of themselves as outsiders and often downright despise the culture they live in. (this not generally happening in the US even though with far great number if immigrants, mostly illegal).
The group thast blew up the Underground in London, were Englishmen killing fellow Englishmen and civilians to boot. This is truly astonishing when you consider the implications.
This has much to do with the modern version of multiculturalism which certainly exists in the US but is dominantin Europe. It used to mean respect for other cultures, then it became all cultures are equal and it now is "all cultures are equal except for ours which has caused nothing but misery, so we will eliminate any reference to our history, culture etc that can possibly offend"
When you forget what got you there, you won't stay there for long
Instead, the central principle of many Europeans is to resent the US. (Note, I think this is much less among regular people, but a near religious belief among the intelligentsia and the press)
A recent poll showed more Europeans considered the US a threat to world peace than either China or Russia.
What planet do they live on?
When the US, with little help from Europe (UK, Poland, Denmark and a few others excepted) removes one of the vilest dictators on the planet at little or no cost to them, they turn out in the streets in legions to protest. I have been anxiously waiting for the demonstrations protesting Russia's invasion of Georgia.
Do you discern any guiding principle behind the furor of one and the apathy of the other?
This, my friend, is denial of reality.
To put in grandiose terms, I fear we are observing the slow demise of the European part of Western Civilization, the most accomplished civilization in history.
PS, if you want to know the fundamental difference between the US and Europe, we can go there as well.
big kahuna
Aug 20, 08 9:41
Post #5 of 70 (513 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [HeartlessNomad]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Not to mention the pinnacle of American ignorance and stupidity:
Hey...let's play a game. You get to fly the following aircraft types:
Then, when you've done that, you opine on the base intellect and IQ of the ones who did.
Anybody who knows anything about the F102A "Delta Dagger" knows what a truly difficult plane it was fly. In fact, more pilots probably died in trying to get the things off the ground and back onto terra firma than died in combat flying it. It took balls of solid iron and a damn lot of smarts to fly them, and Dubya did it, party boy persona to the contrary.
BK
parkito
Aug 20, 08 9:48
Post #6 of 70 (505 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [jacknine]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I'm not sure where this thread started from as a discussion point, but I have to say that I saw a lot of what you spoke of mirrored in Sweden during a two month stay there in 1999. Almost 1 in 10 of the population were immigrants, and not blending very easily into the culture. Years of socialist government had really put the kibash on individual initiative which was hampering the economy.
My understanding of Germany at the time was somewhat similar. Given the arduous labor laws, companies and factories were loathed to add new workers when businees was good. So, for companies making sailplanes, business was through the roof because of the low Euro. But the sailplane manufacturers wouldn't add employees because of the "keep them for life" requirements. Sailplane orders were backed up for over a year. People they were hiring seemed to be all Turks for some reason. Very confusing.
I also read where towns in Italy were offering $10,000 to couples having kids. Lots of small towns were dying. No local jobs, all the young people leaving, no future for the community.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (
James Bryant Conant
)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (
Doug Stern
)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (
William Shakespeare
)
HeartlessNomad
Aug 20, 08 9:49
Post #7 of 70 (503 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [big kahuna]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Ok, so hes dumb enough to get into a dangerous plane but has the skills to survive. Bravo!! what the hell does that have to do with his ability to lead a country. Surely we cant use his approval rating and budget deficit to gauge this...
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 9:52
Post #8 of 70 (500 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [big kahuna]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Good retort but his post does more to illustrate his ignorance and bias than anything you or I could say.
HeartlessNomad
Aug 20, 08 9:59
Post #9 of 70 (493 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [jacknine]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
You know, hes a well educated man that served his country. Cant take that away from him. But look at what has happened to the economy, currency, international relations, inflation... since Bush took over.
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 10:21
Post #10 of 70 (484 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [HeartlessNomad]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Yes lets look at that, why don't we:
GDP: up 2 Trillion since 2000
Currency: $ stable through 2005, weakened since, mostly due to the Fed keeping rates too low, incidentally main course of mortgage problem. On the other hand, exports booming.
International relations: If you mean the Euros don't like us as much and Le Monde doesn't think we are all Americans, who cares. We have the support of the people that matter. If you meant something else, pls expand.
Inflation: Perfectly normal until very recently, actually there was concern over deflation just a couple of years ago.
The funny thing is that there are a number of things to criticize Dubya for but people like you are so filled with BDS (Bush derangement syndrome) that you have to make things up.
Andrewmc
Aug 20, 08 10:27
Post #11 of 70 (479 views)
Post deleted by Andrewmc
[
In reply to
]
HeartlessNomad
Aug 20, 08 10:30
Post #12 of 70 (476 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [jacknine]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
GDP up, thats great... Still a growing national debt. So while more is made more is borrowed. GREAT!!! Wait, no its not
Dollar VS Euro
Stable as can be with a negative slope
that about summs up inflation as well I think.
So the people that matter?? Who is that??
Hope you dont name a single European country in that. Il give you Japan, they really like our Tbills...
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 10:42
Post #13 of 70 (463 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [HeartlessNomad]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
So you are wrong on GDP, though the deficit is a disgrace (and very different from debt)
Says nothing about inflation, and yes,deflation was a real concern a few years ago.
Countries that matter are those that share our values and are willing to back it up because they get the bigger picture.
Partial list of countries that matter: UK, at least under Tony, Australia, Denmark (more casualties per capita in Afghanistan than the US), Poland, in fact most former Eastern Bloc countries that actually still have first hand memories of what it means not to be free.
HeartlessNomad
Aug 20, 08 10:51
Post #14 of 70 (451 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [jacknine]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
yes this is good
A
budget deficit
occurs when an
entity
(often a
government
) spends more
money
than it takes in.
yes the government is pissing money away and we are paying for it. result of the gov borrowing more money is inflation..
Australia, Denmark, and Poland. that makes 3 out of about 195. Wow winning them over by a landslide.
Eastern block countries... Oh yes, like the one I grew up in. OK they thing Americans are the biggest idiots in the world with their thinking that they can save everything and make everything better. Different areas have different cultures, beliefs and value different things. When i travel in eastern Europe and they ask about my English its better to be South African then American. yes they are all for the missile shield.. Or I mean the monetary gains that they get out of it.
edwinj
Aug 20, 08 10:53
Post #15 of 70 (447 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [Andrewmc]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To
I am not sure that over the coming 50 years that either Western Europe or the US are going to fare particularly well given the rise of Russia and China, the impact that China can potentially have on both Europe and the US is I would suggest at this point in time unknown but I'd suggest it does not bode well.
I am 34 and my friends are of a similar age, both here in Europe and the US, and I think we all recognise that we need to have our retirements wrapped up and secure in the next 15-20 years with no dependence whatsoever on the state. I do not think I would be any better off if I were in the US, my earning power would be comparable over the coming decade, my retirement costs would almost certainly be higher in the US given the medical costs and their escalation over the past decade.
Both europe and the US have very serious issues, the declining birth rates in europe, the rapidly escalating health care costs in the US, the fact that healthcare in the US is now more than 20% of GDP, is rising faster than inflation, the national debt, the slowing of the economy and so on and so forth.
_________________________________________________
LLLEEEEEEEEEEEERRRROOOYYY JEEENNNNNKKKIIINNNNNS!!!
Andrewmc
Aug 20, 08 11:02
Post #16 of 70 (443 views)
Post deleted by Andrewmc
[
In reply to
]
edwinj
Aug 20, 08 11:09
Post #17 of 70 (436 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [Andrewmc]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Sorry that's my sig line. The text of my post seems to have gotten lost.
What I said was that China was going to have more problems with an aging poulation than we are and I sited an article from the China press stataing that by 2050 or something 20% of their population with be over the age of 65, approx 300 Million people.
_________________________________________________
LLLEEEEEEEEEEEERRRROOOYYY JEEENNNNNKKKIIINNNNNS!!!
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 11:17
Post #18 of 70 (431 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [Andrewmc]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
The US has as great a problem as Europe and you will get to experience it a little sooner than ourselves in terms of the baby boomer retirement.
I lived in the US from 93 to 03 and I do not envy my peers and friends one bit with the burden that they are going to be faced with.
Not correct, the US has a problem funding retirement but the size is about half relative to GDP. Furthermore in the US, folks actually have children at replacement rate which will continue to generate funding (not enough mind you, but far more than elsewhere)
There parents are retiring earlier and earlier relying on medicare and medicaid and social security. There are fewer of them than their parents and they not only have to cover the costs of the millions retiring with the expectation that their retirement will be paid for but they must also cover the daily increasing national debt.
Its interesting to look at the way immigrants have integrated in different countries, parts of countries and specific towns and cities.
I lived in Chicago, on both the North and South side and can assure you that having lived in different parts of the states, the UK and across europe the south side of chicago was the most racially divided place I have ever been to. The same was true of the north side and the ghettoisation was as clear in Chicago as it is in London (Bricklane / Golders Green / Stratford) or Paris with the immigrants that resulted from their various expeditions abroad.
It is interesting that we have city wide ghettoisation in certain parts of the UK, places such as Bradford (where one or more of the July bombers came from) or Blackburn and Burnley where immigrants refuse to learn or speak english and actually want arabic public schools.
I do not think that people resent the US, having lived there and here my observations are that the europeans vue the US's unilateral approach to foreign policy issues to be a real threat, one which places europe in the firing line and people find that unaccepatable.
The claim that Bush acted unilaterally is bogus. He went out of his way to work with the UN before eventually realizing as he should have from the beginning that it was a worthless effort. Incidentally, gave Saddam more time to prepare. Ultimately it was obvious that most Europeans would rather do nothing than deal with the problem in the only way that had a realistic chance of success.
The issues relating to the Iraq war were and are that it was done under the pretense that Sadaam presented a imminent threat, possessed WMD and was involved in 9/11.
There was no pretense and several inquiries have confirmed this. The overwhelming indications were that Saddam was intent on acquiring WMD, enough so that Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, John Kerry, Tony Blair and John Howard agreed.
If you want to argue that they were all wrong, fine, I would agree but people like you are desperate to ascribe ulterior motives when it was really quite simple: The people, incl many dems that had the facts available at the time, agreed that Saddam was an unacceptable risk. Being wrong is a far cry from being a liar.
The reality nearly a decade on is that none of those were true and for this we have paid a heavy price ever since.
A high price indeed, but potentially ultimately worth it, time will tell.
BTW, Was it worth 7000 dead to secure an air field for damaged B29's? Was it worth 1500 dead to test if D day was feasible?
The revisionist thinking that has led the conservatives to turn around nearly a decade on and suggest that it was all done for the better of the Iraqi people by removing one of the worst dictators in history is just that, revisionism. I don't think anyone denies that he was a despot, but the fact remains we did not go there to free the people, we were led there under the pretence that he presented a threat which with the passing of time has proven to be untrue.
Another canard. Bush gave 7 specific reasons in his speech to congress for removing Saddam of which one was freeing the Iraqi people. Damn those repubs, nothing but high principle.
I am not sure that over the coming 50 years that either Western Europe or the US are going to fare particularly well given the rise of Russia and China, the impact that China can potentially have on both Europe and the US is I would suggest at this point in time unknown but I'd suggest it does not bode well.
Russia is temporarily riding high on oil revenues but also have the highest adult mortality rate in "the West" and just overplayed their hand in Georgia. You may have noticed that Poland and Ukraine couldn't wait to hook up with Uncle Sam in response.
As for China, they are facing different version of the European demographic quandary due to the one child policy. The economic boom will gradually slow down and likely reveal serious tensions when millions of people, mostly young men are out of work. However, Taiwan could be a real problem down the road, especially as a distraction from a slowing chinese economy.
I am 34 and my friends are of a similar age, both here in Europe and the US, and I think we all recognise that we need to have our retirements wrapped up and secure in the next 15-20 years with no dependence whatsoever on the state. I do not think I would be any better off if I were in the US, my earning power would be comparable over the coming decade, my retirement costs would almost certainly be higher in the US given the medical costs and their escalation over the past decade.
Congratulations, this part you get. Just make sure you vote for whoever leaves you with the most of your income intact, i.e. lower taxes.
Both europe and the US have very serious issues, the declining birth rates in europe, the rapidly escalating health care costs in the US, the fact that healthcare in the US is now more than 20% of GDP, is rising faster than inflation, the national debt, the slowing of the economy and so on and so forth.
With all due respect, you dont know what rough is. Economies dont grow at a steady rate, occasional slowdown are actually good in the long run. We pay a high cost for healthcare because we can and we want it. The national debt is manageable, provided deficits are eliminated (fat chance)
Times are going to be rough, it will be interesting to see what happens, what I would say we have going for us is that there has been a settlement and city located in London for more than 2000 years, survived plagues, the blitz, recessions and had to evolve to meet the changing circumstances both nationally and internationally.
Europe / London has a history of changing and adapting over the past 2000-3000 years and there is no reason to believe that this would suddenly all stop because times are tough. If you want to know about tough ask my 94 year old grandmother about having her home destroyed in the blitz. Recent changes are not the end of europe or western civilisation they are simply and indication that things are evolving and changing.
Your granny was of a generation not afraid to fight for what she believed in. What are you doing? Hoping for the best it sounds like to me. (no offense intended)
Halvard
Aug 20, 08 11:30
Post #19 of 70 (423 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [parkito]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
You wrote:
Years of socialist government had really put the kibash on individual initiative which was hampering the economy.
I am not sure if you made an effort to get any knowledge about Sweden during your stay. Americans, especially the republicans have a tendency to talk down on the Scandinavian countries, even calling them socialistic, like you did.
Let us check how the US is measure against the Scandinavian countries. We should expect that the “capitalistic” US will score high on typical fiscal conservative measurement. Numbers from the Economist
Trade balance latest 12 months:
US -$836B
Sweden +$18B
Norway +$74B
Denmark +$4.5B
Current account balance % of GDP 2008
US -4.8
Sweden +7.9
Norway +17.3
Denmark +1
Budget balance % of GDP 2008
US -2.4
Sweden +2.4
Norway +17.7
Denmark +3.8
As you can see, it is not hard to be fiscal conservative, except for the US. Even “socialistic” countries can do it with ease. Also remember that all these countries have little or no debt. You can also look at standard of living, health, child mortality etc etc.
By the way, I had never seen poor people until I moved to the US with my American wife.
Heia Norge :-)
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 11:30
Post #20 of 70 (423 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [HeartlessNomad]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Nope that is not good, never said there were no problems, just that you grossly exaggerated. Reference to government borrowing is theory, often happens but did not until this year. Deflation was a concern from 2003 to 2005.
OK they thing Americans are the biggest idiots in the world with their thinking that they can save everything and make everything better.
Yes they are kind of silly that way, which is why Europeans are not bilingual, German and Russian. But hey, if you can get someone else to guarantee your 6 weeks vacation, more power to you.
Tridiot
Aug 20, 08 11:50
Post #21 of 70 (405 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [edwinj]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
You have much faith that China (even in 40 years) will act with much real care for their elderly? I don't have such a favorable view, and would fully expect that thousands upon thousands of elderly will end up hidden away somewhere.
majorminor
Aug 20, 08 12:05
Post #22 of 70 (388 views)
Post deleted by majorminor
[
In reply to
]
sgoehner
Aug 20, 08 12:37
Post #23 of 70 (375 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [majorminor]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Here's an idea that I would love to see tried. How about the US stops sending monetary aid to anyone in the world. Any country that thinks we are a bunch of "idiots" can be left to fend for themselves and will receive no military support if needed. Does the US have problems? Hell Yes, but I would still like to happen if we did the above.
Tridiot
Aug 20, 08 13:06
Post #24 of 70 (365 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [majorminor]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I'm aware of those cultural differences, which is a great point btw, but my concern is more about how things will be handled with a projected glut of elderly etc and how the government might take action. One can readily make the argument the government won't be involved, but with their penchant for moving tens upon tens of thousands of people from areas for dams, or forcing them to move to cities, and with their ethics situation, it just concerns me.
Hopefully it won't end up mattering, but we'll see.
jacknine
Aug 20, 08 14:07
Post #25 of 70 (317 views)
Re: thread for jacknine to provide some backup for his 'europe in denial' post [Halvard]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Do us a favor and run the data for the last decade, would you?
thanks.
By the way, please also define poor.
In the US, the majority (or very significant portions) below the poverty level own cars, have A/C, multiple TV's and the biggest problem they face is obesity.
And by the way, if you sit on your ass all day long waiting for the government check, you are a lot poorer where it matters than someone who works for a living, no matter the amounts.
1
2
3
View All
Print Thread
MAIN
RULES &
LOG
