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Afraid of our bikes....really now?
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flyer521
Aug 18, 08 13:27
Post #1 of 25 (1117 views)
Afraid of our bikes....really now?
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So I read the third installment of the Brett Sutton interview. I can see his argument about women on disc wheels - whatever, I'll continue to ride mine. I was a little taken aback by his comment on how female triathletes have terrible bike handling skills, and are afraid of turns. I am failing to see any basis in a gender difference here. I don't think he gives his female athletes the respect they deserve, since they are not just little 12 year old puppets who have no idea what works for them. I don't want to be critical of him since what he does works for them, but i think it is dangerous how many people on here lap up his every word and think he is the last word in coaching. I find it strange that there is a prevailing attitude that women must have very controlling coaches to excel, while the majority of the top male pros coach themselves.
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cerveloguy
Aug 18, 08 13:57
Post #2 of 25 (1096 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [flyer521]
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"Tri girls have the worst handling skill you have ever seen. ........most age group men are not much better."
He doesn't just slam tri gals, but also most AG men.
Sutton seems, at least from the article, as a guy with some very strong opinions, and I would expect he's very much the controlling domineering type with his female athletes. But that does seem to work for Chrissie.
Considering his past however as a convicted child molester, I definately wouldn't want him coaching my daughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Sutton
"OK, I'll admit I screwed up the facts"
(This post was
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by cerveloguy on Aug 18, 08 14:03)
fitzie
Aug 18, 08 15:34
Post #3 of 25 (1045 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [cerveloguy]
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I agree, but the sticky point is that he has coached Chrissie to a point that even professional men want him as a coach. That is why they are paying attention. His bedside manner is certainly not "nice", but that is not his job. I'm not condoning the fact that he may be an asshole, but he gets results.
The thing he does is to capitalize on an athlete's strengths.
For example, in one of the interviews he was talking about Marilyn McDonald (I hope that is her first name). I guess she wasn't the greatest swimmer, so he coached her to better utilize her strength, which came from years of horse back riding. While she may never be the "smoothest" swimmer, he taught her to use her overall arm strength instead and she is already faster. That is something to pay attention to.
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
cerveloguy
Aug 18, 08 15:45
Post #4 of 25 (1036 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [fitzie]
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He's a very contraversial individual, especially considering his past, but I don't doubt for one moment his abilities as a coach.
"OK, I'll admit I screwed up the facts"
determination
Aug 19, 08 12:51
Post #5 of 25 (909 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [cerveloguy]
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I like the part in the interview where he talks about fear and descending. Obviously has never coached any former downhill ski racers turned triathletes.
No fear of the descent with them!
Khai
Aug 19, 08 13:39
Post #6 of 25 (888 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [determination]
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I like the part in the interview where he talks about fear and descending. Obviously has never coached any former downhill ski racers turned triathletes.
No fear of the descent with them!
Not a lot of coaching (of descending skills) required with them either! A buddy of mine who I used to outweigh by a LOT (and still do, but now to a lesser degree) always out-paces me on technical descents. I roll faster than he does in a straight line, but he kicks my ass in the twisties. Partially it's a fear factor thing as he's an adrenaline junkie with no fear of anything whereas I've spent a lot more time on a bike and know what it's like to crash hard. But the main factor is that he's a ski instructor and has been for 12 years. His job (among other things) is to pick lines. All day long. If I look at a corner I might see three or five lines through it. He's going to see twelve, and instinctively know which ones are the best and how to transition from one to another if need be. Ski racers have that ability.
People who ride motorcycles tend to be excellent descenders as well for similar reasons. Also because anytime they're on a bicycle they're going
really slow
in comparison!
<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Marco in BC
Aug 19, 08 13:45
Post #7 of 25 (886 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Khai]
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People who ride motorcycles tend to be excellent descenders as well for similar reasons. Also because anytime they're on a bicycle they're going
really slow
in comparison!
<--- exception to the rule, I felt a lot safer on my motorbike at 200kph than I ever did on any road/tri bike above 25mph, there is just no comparison, yeah, you are going much slower but
a) you are way higher on a road bike than you would be on a motorbike, extremely different centre of gravity
b) a motorbike has suspensions, which makes a big difference when taking turns on non perfectly smooth roads
c) a motorbike's tires are what, 20 times wider at least? my back tire was huge and gave me a lot of confidence in fast turns
d) a motorbike has 2 big disc brakes in front, stopping power is not even comparable
e) on a motorbike you wear a nice protective 'skeleton' under a nice suit, on a road/tri bike you have only a thin layer of lycra between you and the pavement, also the helmet protection is not even comparable once again
f) on a motorbike you always have power in reserve, if something happens you can quickly accelerate out of the way, on a bike it's dodge or crash, which limits your options
g) never felt a 'high speed wobble' on a motorbike, if a motorbike ever had that it would not be sold, but for some reason people seem to take that as 'normal' on a road bike
if at all I would think that people used to a motorbike would be even more scared than non-motorbikers on a road bike... I am also not sure about the skiing thing as I can go quite fast in downhills (ok, not as pro-fast, but reasonably quickly) but again the feeling is way different due to much lower centre of gravity and from being on two fairly long edged skis, which make turning and stopping a LOT easier
--
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
(This post was
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by Marco in BC on Aug 19, 08 13:50)
Khai
Aug 19, 08 14:10
Post #8 of 25 (871 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Marco in BC]
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Are you a cyclist or a triathlete? I'm not trying to be insulting, but there is a difference as a general rule.
If you are a cyclist, you'd be the first motorcyclist/cyclist I've met who isn't a good descender...
<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Marco in BC
Aug 19, 08 14:56
Post #9 of 25 (851 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Khai]
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Are you a cyclist or a triathlete? I'm not trying to be insulting, but there is a difference as a general rule.
If you are a cyclist, you'd be the first motorcyclist/cyclist I've met who isn't a good descender...
I am neither, I am a software developer who dabbles in BOP triathlons for fun & fitness, but I have been riding (motor)bikes nearly exclusively from 16 to my early 20s and been downhill skiing since I was 12 or so, in my mind there is no comparison, I feel way safer on a motorbike/pair of skis than on a tri/road bike, no questions about it.
And BTW, I thought the rule now is 'discuss the message, not the messenger', I have given you a ton of reasons why a motorbike feels safer than a road bike, I would appreciate if you talked about them and not about my lack of descending skills... more power to whomever goes 70kph+ on a downhill, it for sure isn't ever going to be me.
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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
(This post was
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by Marco in BC on Aug 19, 08 14:56)
TriToy
Aug 19, 08 15:20
Post #10 of 25 (842 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [determination]
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I like the part in the interview where he talks about fear and descending. Obviously has never coached any former downhill ski racers turned triathletes.
No fear of the descent with them!
oh that explains why I always pass people going downhill! I was a ski racer!
my coach has a hard time keeping up with me on the downhills (but not the climbing....) someday I will be good at climbing....
dig the downhill speed though!
---
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Khai
Aug 19, 08 15:45
Post #11 of 25 (833 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Marco in BC]
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I am neither, I am a software developer who dabbles in BOP triathlons for fun & fitness, but I have been riding (motor)bikes nearly exclusively from 16 to my early 20s and been downhill skiing since I was 12 or so, in my mind there is no comparison, I feel way safer on a motorbike/pair of skis than on a tri/road bike, no questions about it.
And BTW, I thought the rule now is 'discuss the message, not the messenger', I have given you a ton of reasons why a motorbike feels safer than a road bike, I would appreciate if you talked about them and not about my lack of descending skills... more power to whomever goes 70kph+ on a downhill, it for sure isn't ever going to be me.
Easy Tonto, the intent was not to point out your skill set. It does make sense if you think about it though - you've got a LOT of time logged on a motorcycle and on skis, and a lot less on a bicycle. Of course you're going to be more comfortable on either of those. Given your background however, you're probably a lot more skilled in the corners than most triathletes with a similar amount of (bicycle) saddle time. I don't know if you've ever crashed a motorcycle, but if you have that will give you a healthy respect for what can happen should something go awry as well.
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Marco in BC
Aug 19, 08 16:20
Post #12 of 25 (824 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Khai]
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Easy Tonto, the intent was not to point out your skill set. It does make sense if you think about it though - you've got a LOT of time logged on a motorcycle and on skis, and a lot less on a bicycle. Of course you're going to be more comfortable on either of those. Given your background however, you're probably a lot more skilled in the corners than most triathletes with a similar amount of (bicycle) saddle time. I don't know if you've ever crashed a motorcycle, but if you have that will give you a healthy respect for what can happen should something go awry as well.
I have pretty much as much time logged on a bike as on a motorbike (I haven't been riding motorbikes for a while), fact is that even after several years of riding I am not nearly as comfortable on a road bike as I was after only a year or 2 on a motorbike, it is simply a fact of centre of gravity and lack of decent grip; I am a LOT more comfortable on my xc mtb than on my road bike for example, maybe I am just wired to like fat tires or something... I have never crashed a motorbike but I would take crashing with a full body suit + a dainese carbon fiber under suit to protect joints and spine + a full face helmet over crashing wearing lycra and a tiny bike helmet any day...
I have taken some bad spills downhill on skis too (the worst one I nearly sprained my pelvis or something, basically from the waist down I rotated one way, and from the waist up another way, and HARD) and I still am a lot more fearless on skis, because I know that I can control the skis a lot more than a flimsy road/tri bike, and if I fall on the skis I likely won't leave 200 yards of skin on the pavement... I've had this discussion with my dad (who was a fearless descender in his youth, although that ended up costing him his cycling career) and it always ends up with a 'either you have it or you don't', evidently I 'have it' for skis & motorbikes, but not for bikes, while he 'has it' for bikes & motorbikes, but not skis...
Basically what I am trying to say is that correlation does not imply causation, just because a lot of motorcyclists/skiers are fearless bike descenders, it doesn't mean ALL of them are or should be; yes, there is such a thing as being used to high speeds, and there is such a thing about having a basic balance, but that doesn't mean that somebody who is comfortable riding a several hundred lb motorcycle or two long planks of fiber automatically should feel comfortable on two tiny tires wearing no protection whatsoever. It'd be like saying that just because you are comfortable skiing and riding a bike you should be comfortable on a motorcycle, which is definitely not the case usually.
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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
(This post was
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by Marco in BC on Aug 19, 08 16:34)
Khai
Aug 19, 08 22:46
Post #13 of 25 (789 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Marco in BC]
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Perhaps you read too much into my original post - I never claimed nor implied a causal relationship. Simply stated, cyclists who ride motorcycles
tend to be
good descenders. This is true. It isn't a certainty, but the correlation is strong.
The part about some people "having it" is also very true. Some people are just fearless and push it all the time. Others are more aware of their mortality. Having crashed on skis, motorcycles
and
bicycles, I lean a little more towards the latter. :)
I do occasionally think about getting another motorcycle, but riding in the city is a little bit too risky of a proposition for me. Strangely, I'm very comfortable on my bicycle in heavy traffic. That's a familiarity/saddle time thing.
<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
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Marco in BC
Aug 20, 08 11:58
Post #14 of 25 (720 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [Khai]
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I do occasionally think about getting another motorcycle, but riding in the city is a little bit too risky of a proposition for me. Strangely, I'm very comfortable on my bicycle in heavy traffic. That's a familiarity/saddle time thing.
I don't mind heavy traffic in my bike either, just the descending, I am just as comfortable at 25mph with cars besides me as on my own, which is funny because some people seem to be great descenders but are very afraid in traffic... I guess it also depends from how one grows up, I have grown up riding in heavy traffic (with no helmet, shudder) in a pancake flat area, which probably explains why I am the way I am...
This said I don't understand people riding motorbikes here in Canada, where is the fun in basically being a car on 2 wheels, the point of having a motorbike is to be able to weave in traffic, pass in between cars at stoplights, etc. etc. all things that would get you fines here right away. I also don't think people here are very used to driving around motorcycles (at least compared to Europe) which makes it even riskier...
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determination
Aug 20, 08 12:48
Post #15 of 25 (702 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [CatIsTriing]
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It also helps to not have a speedometer on your bike. ha ha. Then you don't look down and go, oh crap! I'm going 50 mph wearing nothing but spandex and this helmet! ahhh!!!
I'm a total adrenaline junkie. I'll scream down the steepest of the steeps on the slopes in CO, Utah, or Whistler.
I miss ski racing.
jenhs
Aug 20, 08 14:28
Post #16 of 25 (666 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [flyer521]
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I unfortunately fit his stereotype. I am terrified of descending. Or, of crashing I should say. I am all too aware of the damage a high speed crash can cause and since I haven't crashed yet I worry about when it will be my turn. This really has limited my success on the bike. But, I've gotten better and have gotten up to 30mph a couple times. Scares the hell out of me though. Roads are too unpredictable. I worry about potholes, critters, cars and other riders.
I was on a training weekend in Penticton two years ago and faced side winds coming down off of Yellow Lake that had me blowing across traffic lanes. It was really terrifying because they were gusts and would push me all the way to the outside of the right lane, almost into the left lane. I was squeezing super hard on my breaks and I realized that I would rather crash going 20 then 30. When I reached town the sand off of Skaha Lake was blowing across the road and stung my face. Trees were bending sideways. Even my coach was freaked out. He said he almost pulled me from the road but I kept going so he just followed closely in the car. I NEVER want to experience that again.
Bikes scare me in general and it is only after 3 Ironmans that I feel comfortable on it. Just don't put me at the top of a big hill :-)
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Jenhs
bdiva
Aug 20, 08 14:52
Post #17 of 25 (656 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [jenhs]
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Jen,
So glad you said you were terrified of descending! I'm often rather intimidated by the amazing women on this forum, so totally makes me feel better to hear someone else has issues with downhills.
I love climbing hills, but cannot stand the going down. Always start thinking "gosh, if I hit a rock at the wrong time at this speed I'll be flat on the side of the road", etc., etc. I'm working on it, but still suck at downhills (especially cornering). It sucks, too, cause I'll pass people on the climb....who then blow by me on the downhill as I clutch the brakes.
Sigh.
Em
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lilystyx
Aug 20, 08 15:21
Post #18 of 25 (649 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [bdiva]
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Jen and Em, can I join your club? I'm terrified of descending- of rocks, sand, leaves, water, squirrels, gravity.... I'd much rather go up a hill twice than down it once. For those of you who raced LP- I was the chick practically walking her bike down into Keane, it's that bad.
Does anyone have advice for conquering this sometimes irrational fear? A friend offered to lend me her motorcycle gear so I could ride down hills on my old bike and not worry so much about getting chewed up when I crash....not sure about it....
Marco in BC
Aug 20, 08 18:02
Post #19 of 25 (619 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [lilystyx]
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A friend offered to lend me her motorcycle gear so I could ride down hills on my old bike and not worry so much about getting chewed up when I crash....not sure about it....
I don't think this helps, the few times I rode downhill with my mtb gear on (don't laugh, yes, you can ride on a road bike with shin/elbow/knee/forearm pads and a full face downhill helmet) it felt safe, but it didn't translate at all to riding without all the safety gear...
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Rasmus
Aug 20, 08 19:02
Post #20 of 25 (605 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [lilystyx]
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Trust your bike - wheels especially - and do the same descend over and over again to begin with. Learn the lines well, and get used to spot the apex of a turn when it comes up. Become familiar with your bike at high speed, and how to toss your weight around. Look ahead, not at the road right in front of you. If you're looking at the outside of a curve odds are that's where you'll end up. You really don't need to fear descending only understand it.
(And even though I'm usually quite comfortable doing +50mph descends sometimes I still get scared. I blame the squirrels.)
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Can't run. Can't swim. Can handle a bike a little.
bpq
Aug 21, 08 11:26
Post #21 of 25 (552 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [flyer521]
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Most triathletes (not just women) are terrible bike handlers. Part of it is due to the fact that they're on tri bikes which, by design, are not good in turns. The other is that most triathletes just haven't spent that much time on a bike... and the time they have spent was mostly later in life.
Additionally, it is true that most (not all) of the women I know are more conservative when it comes to descending (or riding in traffic, etc...). Insurance rates for male drivers are higher than women drivers in the same demographic for just this reason.
When you can take a sweeping right hand turn at over 60 mph, in a group, in the rain... you're a good bike handler. The last time I found myself in that situation... I nearly crapped myself.
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Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit - A wise man does not urinate against the wind.
determination
Aug 21, 08 12:31
Post #22 of 25 (526 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [bdiva]
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Everyone has their strengths. I suck on the uphills. My blazing downhills don't make up for it, either.
deechee
Aug 29, 08 13:37
Post #23 of 25 (308 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [flyer521]
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With an older sister who mentally manipulated me in my youth, I'm just as annoyed with stupid comments like this.
My gf bombs down corners faster than anyone I know. And she only started riding 2-3 years ago. She loves the thrill, and with the right coach, she'll take that same corner over and over again (falling too) to see how fast she can take it. Heck, she was doing a crit series last summer. I am definitely too scared to do that. Meanwhile, mr.boring safety me rides like the early-braking scaredy-cat this coach talks about.
dreaming~big
Aug 31, 08 6:28
Post #24 of 25 (246 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [lilystyx]
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sometimes irrational fear
hardly irrational to fly down a steep cliff at 50 mph with nothing but 12 lbs of titanium underneath you. :) my take on it is just to suck it up, trust in God, let go and enjoy the feeling of flying like an angel. yeah, it's scarier than sh*t!
Sabrekitty
Aug 31, 08 7:38
Post #25 of 25 (242 views)
Re: Afraid of our bikes....really now? [determination]
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I'm with you on that.
I take descents, especially if I know them, at blazing speed. I climb like a three-toed sloth tied to an anvil.
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Off Season
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