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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No???

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littlefoot

Jul 4, 09 10:04

Post #26 of 77 (1378 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [usctriguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I love the trek!
I was thinking about getting a 2008 or 2009 version, but just think I will wait for the 2011 one! That is awesome. Much better than the cervelo design (with a non functioning water bottle-yeah I know, let the arguing begin) and the giant/specialized.

Way to go Trek!

nproximos

Jul 4, 09 10:04

Post #27 of 77 (1378 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

we just need higher paying jobs!

+1

Drew_O

Jul 4, 09 10:12

Post #28 of 77 (1366 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looking at the pics it does look like there are a LOT of different pieces in the stem/fork/bars area. The CN article said they are working on making the bike simpler and more user friendly for the average consumer/wrench, so we'll see. I assume this bike will come with a proprietary basebar, necessitated by brake cable routing through the stem clamp area.

Also, if you compare the various pics of different versions of this bike that have been posted, you'll see a few different stem shapes, some that are straight and up-angles, others that have more of a downward kink to yeild a lower bar height. So I'm guessing stem is swappable, I imagine you'll be able to pick your stem when you buy the frame.

:D

Jul 4, 09 10:25

Post #29 of 77 (1356 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

speedfil has a purpose. And if I remove it I don't lose the aero bike.

Sponsors: Quarq, Steady State Sports, Hincapie Sportswear.

jackmott

Jul 4, 09 10:27

Post #30 of 77 (1352 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [:D] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

speedfil has a purpose. And if I remove it I don't lose the aero bike.

sure, you lose it when you put it on

=)
----
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
rear wheel disc ALWAYS http://www.wheelbuilder.com if poor front wheel whatever torodial rim wheel you want, or H3. deeper if yer faster shallower if yer slower tires - http://www.biketechreview.com has crr data, use it frames - position trumps aero trumps weight trumps paintjob trumps stiffness water bottle between your arms or not at all if its a sprint swimget some swim lessons, its cheaper than buying bike speed train more and HTFU

P_Ahart

Jul 4, 09 10:35

Post #31 of 77 (1342 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [frank z.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If this was actually true, how do they get away with not releasing the aerbar set-up that is a "team only" issue?

Tom Demerly

Jul 4, 09 11:10

Post #32 of 77 (1321 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [usctriguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

James Huang discusses the new 2011 Trek TT bike here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...peed-concept-preview

:D

Jul 4, 09 11:15

Post #33 of 77 (1315 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

exactly! They really should make a slimmer model. But I still think it's worth it. I probably lose way more aero with my slackass position versus the milimeters of bottle girth.

Sponsors: Quarq, Steady State Sports, Hincapie Sportswear.

Rappstar

Jul 4, 09 12:10

Post #34 of 77 (1283 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

How do you adjust the sizing of the front end of that bike? Can you swap out stems? Do you use different stem/fork sets?

It seems to have very little adjustability. Won't that be a significant problem for a bike for the masses?

It actually has a ton of adjustability. And to answer the question posed, the bike is (or should) be a lot easier to work on that it may appear. There are plenty of "access ports" to the cables, and when you actually see how the design works up close, it will make a lot more sense.

Again, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to share. But the bike is extremely well considered, and is, for example, MUCH simpler than the Giant/HighRoad-TechDev bike to cable and work on. Obviously, it's going to be more complex than a bike with externally routed rear-brake and derailleur cables, but given that there are ZERO exposed cables (except for the tiny section of RD cable housing), it's amazing how easy they made it in terms of maintenance.

In terms of adjustability, there are several different ways to adjust the length/height of the cockpit. It's obviously going to be more limited than having the virtually unlimited choice of spacers & stems & aerobars, but there are plenty of options. The one thing I *really* like about this bike is that you can't sell it without giving someone a fit. You can't just stuff max spacers under the uncut steerer tube and send it out the door. You MUST go through the fitting process first. Of course, you can still end up with a crap position if the fitter is bad, but there won't be any of this total ignoring of the process. Furthermore, it's also going to be much easier to fit someone up on a fitbike and then translate that to this bike, which I also consider to be a big advantage.

This is also true of the Specialized Shiv. Both bikes fit nicely, by virtue of their design, into the "fit is critical" message that Trek and Specialized are putting forth.

compositepro

Jul 4, 09 12:21

Post #35 of 77 (1267 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the squared off rear edge is what we have called for a long time phantom trailing edge .its not new ...well maybe to bikes it is but there are benefits to its use...the 8-1 is a bit of a stretch though

Rappstar

Jul 4, 09 13:12

Post #36 of 77 (1233 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [compositepro] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

It's not a "phantom trailing edge." It's called a Kamm tail, as many of the reviews have mentioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

It was used on race cars for a long time, since many of the design restrictions imposed by series rules made it logical. It's biggest usage lately has been for the high-efficiency cars like the Prius, Insight, etc.

compositepro

Jul 4, 09 13:27

Post #37 of 77 (1219 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

well some of us work in race cars and luckily we dont get all our info from marketing shite and wikipedia

also I might add that what works in cars often doesnt work on bikes though its great for hangliders .

(This post was edited by compositepro on Jul 4, 09 13:42)

Tom A.

Jul 4, 09 14:00

Post #38 of 77 (1184 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I remember us discussing it here awhile back in a thread about the Fuji D6 and it's "blunt" trailing edge behind the brake "cluster"...although in that case, they don't quite get the "cutoff" point right ;-)

BTW, I'm not buying the "it's identical in drag to an 8:1 section"...at least not of the same width. If that was the case, why would ANY wing section not be just cut off? It's probably better than a 3:1 section of the same width, but that's not the same as saying it's every bit as good as the 8:1.

I like the "out of the box" thinking of that one for getting around the aspect ratio limitations. Good on 'em! :-)

That Trek is one of my new favorite bikes...mostly because of the apparently good "execution of details" they seem to have been able to pull off. Most of the other "superbikes" have at least a couple of details that leave me scratching my head, but aside from the vertical dropouts, I can't think of anything on the Trek I would have liked done better...and the dropout issue may not be a big one based on how they shape/handle the seat-tube anyway. It sure would be nice to see an updated "whitepaper" on the new bike :-)

compositepro

Jul 4, 09 14:31

Post #39 of 77 (1149 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tom im not having a dig at anyone ..many years ago we learned all these things about aerodynamics at university and yes you learn about the guys who came up with all these aero principles which admittedly are sound if used correctly... however when you work with stuff everyday it gets ingrained in your head the facts figures whys what nots so wikipedia is often not entirely right nor are the text books even that you learned from

also its not about willy wanging saying ooooh i do race cars because they are completely different animals all together but the reason i got out of bikes completely at one point was because i hated playing the game ...and my favourite saying....dont believe the hype...

the point was i was saying we call it a phantom trailing edge ...when the guys were over from Honda racing development they spoke a different language despite being equally qualified engineers...strangely they were more than chuffed though

admittedly i like the bike because its probably the most integrated design out there at this time and that is where the next step change in bike design will be not ...getting shirty over who cut the back off an old naca foil

Rappstar

Jul 4, 09 14:36

Post #40 of 77 (1145 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [compositepro] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Yes, I agree, which is why I'm thankful for the 6 years (on and off) that I spent working on race cars, specifically vintage and historic, many of which used the Kamm tail design. Lots of the Can-Am cars from the 60s and 70s made use of this design, and that was the bulk of the cars that I worked on. The fact that you didn't actually know the technical name for that particular airfoil design, calling it a "phantom trailing edge" makes me think that maybe you do not spend much time around race cars. But maybe you were just lazy, which is routine when posting on a forum. Just be careful, if you do get lazy, about challenging someone else's credentials when they call you out.

And while it's true that what works for cars doesn't always work for bikes, given the success of the Kamm tail design in high-efficiency (which generally equates relatively low overall speed) vehicles, I'd say that there is probably more carryover than what you might see from something like a GT1 or F1 car where the speeds involved are much higher.

Paulo Sousa

Jul 4, 09 14:41

Post #41 of 77 (1140 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's marketing. Reynolds number regime and the specific design of that tail won't work like they're announcing it. Which might not make a huge difference, if you understand a little the flow in that area of a time-trial bike.
-

pstriathlon.com

compositepro

Jul 4, 09 14:52

Post #42 of 77 (1126 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

wasnt even a sperm in the 70s me im afraid

Im more F1 and ALMS 2000 onwards

if you want i can send you some lovely photos of us building the defarran ALMS cars or Even the Honda Racing Devlopment ALMS

like i say its very rare i get out an opinion.... which most who really know me and float about my little prototyping shop thinks is pretty OK because my head aint so big

when it comes to bikes i tend not to talk about it and when it comes to cars i tend not to talk about it

but not like fight club ...where ...well ok no one talks about it

(This post was edited by compositepro on Jul 4, 09 15:16)

rhane

Jul 5, 09 18:35

Post #43 of 77 (941 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [littlefoot] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Trek looks the best to me, with the exception of the fork/stem design, which makes the bike look like it has antlers. I think the Giant/Specialized fork/stems are much more aesthetically pleasing. On the Cervelo side, the aerobottle fairing is supposed to help substantially with the airflow. If trek incorporated these two concepts into the final design it would be the hands down winner for me - not only as a racing machine, but as a fine piece of art.

renegade027

Jul 6, 09 6:06

Post #44 of 77 (804 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Paulo Sousa] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Paulo, would you care to explain a bit more, please - what is going on with the flow in that area that will result in a minor change in drag overal? What is "not a huge difference" in terms of grams of force at relevant yaw angles? 20grams at 30 mph? 30 grams? Less or more? I'm interested in an educated guess here, of course.

rmur

Jul 6, 09 8:05

Post #45 of 77 (732 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

all 'dis smoke looks cute but where's drag vs. yaw data for the bike? Specialized are currently winning the numbers game ...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...oncept-preview/77587
_________________________________
Gizmo marketing specialist :-)

Tom A.

Jul 6, 09 8:22

Post #46 of 77 (710 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

all 'dis smoke looks cute but where's drag vs. yaw data for the bike? Specialized are currently winning the numbers game ...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...oncept-preview/77587

Ummm...yeah...how could anyone take a look at the smoke on those 2 right most figures and come to the conclusion that the drag is "identical"? I'm hoping the folks at Trek are being misquoted a bit...

Carl

Jul 6, 09 8:38

Post #47 of 77 (686 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

All in good time...we just got back from the tunnel last week. Won't be able to compare to Specialized's data anyway...we didn't have a Shiv, used a different tunnel, different setup on the bike, etc etc.

Carl
Trek Speed Design

jackmott

Jul 6, 09 8:44

Post #48 of 77 (674 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Carl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Carl if you and Specialized would be good enough to send me each a bike, I will be happy to do highly unscientific road tests with each and report back.

=)

In Reply To:

----
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
rear wheel disc ALWAYS http://www.wheelbuilder.com if poor front wheel whatever torodial rim wheel you want, or H3. deeper if yer faster shallower if yer slower tires - http://www.biketechreview.com has crr data, use it frames - position trumps aero trumps weight trumps paintjob trumps stiffness water bottle between your arms or not at all if its a sprint swimget some swim lessons, its cheaper than buying bike speed train more and HTFU

dcsxtri10

Jul 6, 09 8:46

Post #49 of 77 (668 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Carl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Carl from Trek,

So is this new bike likely to be released for purchase this fall??? Most of us could care less about the comparison to the HIV bike from Specialized in the wind tunnel ;-)
Dave

Carl

Jul 6, 09 8:48

Post #50 of 77 (658 views)

Re: 2010 Trek TTX - Yes or No??? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Unfortunately a static shot from what is actually a composite high-speed video (i.e. each shape shot separately and then lined up side by side for the comparison) doesn't let you appreciate the full effect. What you'd see is that the flow detaches from the leeward side of each shape at the same place.

Carl
Trek Speed Design

(This post was edited by Carl on Jul 6, 09 8:53)

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