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Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run
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ivansie
Oct 31, 09 7:51
Post #1 of 24 (1352 views)
Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run
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Hey
I need to become a better swimmer to really enjoy tris of any distance. I am thinking of going with a swim intense period from nov to march swimming about 4 times a week hopefully (can't do more) before I will swim 1 or 2 times a week.
Could I become a good swimmer at age 30 something with a block like this, attending a masters group? I am currently below mop
do to time constraints I won't be able to do more than probably 2 bikes and runs during these months if I commit to the swimming. How will the extra swim fitness impact bike/run?
Any advice is welcomed
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
psoasminor
Oct 31, 09 7:57
Post #2 of 24 (1347 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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of course you can, but swimming (as opposed to running, cycling) is more about technique.
Masters swimming or individual instruction can help with that.
Swimming helps a little bit with the bike/run but its really different muscles, so i dont think it helps that much.
JTRock
Oct 31, 09 9:27
Post #3 of 24 (1283 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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I was a pretty crap swimmer and with increased focus on swimming became a bit less crap. Actually I went from BOP in XTERRA to MOP in 70.3s in the pro fields. I'm still working on it.
What I've realized is:
- Technique is your most important factor. You will hugely benefit from some one on one instruction. Particularly underwater video taping of your swim which you can then refer to and actually see what you are doing wrong. I would suggest finding a good coach in your area who can do some one on one sessions with you. Probably 2-4 in quick succession (ie 1 per week) focusing on technique, then maybe 1 per month after that to follow up on how things are developing.
- Second, consistency is key.The more frequently and consistently you can swim the better. I would say 6 days per week would be best, but it sounds like 4 times per week is all you can do. I would suggest doing as much as you can frequency wise. The frequency will allow you to develop the "feel for the water" that swimmers will tell you is the key to swimming fast. Meaning, your proprioception of your swimming will increase and you can actually apply the proper technique to your stroke and be able to "feel" when you are slipping into bad technique and thus correct those bad habits. Personally I was swimming 2-3 times per week when I was slow. I increased that to 3-5 days per week and dropped a few minutes. Now I am chasing seconds, maybe a minute and will be doing 6 days with up to 10 sessions with and average volume of 30k per week with weeks up to 50k. But,I am trying to become and ITU racer. In my transition from slow swimming to ok swimming (ie sub 25 2k, and 18's for 1500) I increased the frequency and noticed significant results.
However, considering the above, also do some rotator cuff stability work. Meaning stretch cords and some weights. Increasing your volume can be hard on you if you are also trying to develop your technique. So, be sure to do some strength work as injury prevention. Also, if you shoulders are bothering you don't hesitate to take a day off to let it recover. You really don't want to get injured and loose the all important consistency. Better to loose a day than a month, you know.
Hope that helps,
Let me know if you have any other questions.
jimmy
Jimmy Archer
Pro Triathlete/Coach/Freelance Writer
www.jimmyarcher.com
govols
Oct 31, 09 9:37
Post #4 of 24 (1273 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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As psoasminor says, technique is critical to swimming better but so is core strength and "want to". Go to the masters practices, work your ass off and make the coach pay attention to your stroke.
Focus on proper swimming technique confuses most bop swimmers since they tend to think they need to go slow and do a bunch of drills and that will magically make them better - it won't. Technique and swimming hard are not mutually exclusive. If you want to swim fast concentrate on this:
1. Learn how to read a pace clock and pay attention to your times
2. Pick the fastest lane you can handle
3. Try to move up until you lead that lane
4. Pay attention to how the faster swimmer's stroke looks and try to adopt what you see
5. Move over to the next fastest lane
6. Repeat steps 2-5
Technique will get better as you do.
tigerchik
Oct 31, 09 9:42
Post #5 of 24 (1267 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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"Extra" swim fitness will mean you won't be as tired when you get out of the water, and that will help your overall race.
Yes you can get to be a better swimmer at 30. Do as others have said with focusing on it.
_____________
mmm, pi!
ivansie
Oct 31, 09 11:31
Post #6 of 24 (1191 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [JTRock]
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Thanks Jimmy, certainly your perspective is a good example.
I am not sure unfortunately that I can swim much more than 4 times a week but I will certainly include some dryland excercises probably with bands since those are easy to fit in while watching tv for instance.
Peace
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
ivansie
Oct 31, 09 11:35
Post #7 of 24 (1187 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [govols]
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Thanks,
I need to really make the coach help me with stroke technique. That is the key, besides increasing frequency/yardage. I had a good experience a couple of years ago when I swam with masters sporadically for some months and just by doing so my swimming improved but there was no coach interaction since i will only swim with them saturdays, the day he wouldnt attend practice.
Peace
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
ivansie
Oct 31, 09 11:40
Post #8 of 24 (1174 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [tigerchik]
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"Extra" swim fitness will mean you won't be as tired when you get out of the water, and that will help your overall race.
Yes you can get to be a better swimmer at 30. Do as others have said with focusing on it.
Yes, but besides being a little fresher for the beginning of the bike (specially for longer races) overall fitness gains in swimming could translate into better aerobic fitness level for bike/run or not?
I have never felt really destroyed by the beginning of the bike but i am sure I could feel better once my swimming improves...
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
ianpeace
Oct 31, 09 13:26
Post #9 of 24 (1083 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [JTRock]
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You nailed it Jimmy - perfectly comprehensive answer. Thanks for adding to the truely helpful and rational side of ST.
Ian
Ian Murray
www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @triathlondvd.
daveinmammoth
Oct 31, 09 22:11
Post #10 of 24 (895 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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A 30+ person can become a very fast triathlon swimmer - FOP+.
To do such takes a lot of time/energy and focus. You need to really work on technique. You just can't go out and swim hard (like you can on the bike/run).
You need someone to give you help - advise re: your current stroke - things to fix. You can read to an extent and do some things but an extra pair of eyes is generally needed.
A master's swim coach may be able to do this - depends on the coach. Most masters I've been at have had minimal "teaching".
Depending on your stroke - you can go to MOP+ pretty quick but after that - its all time in the pool with good technique so lots of swimming. You do need to be patient.
I think the focus is great - but get a coach!
How fast can you get with a 5 month focus? Depends on how bad your technique is and how much it improves....
Could you become "good"? What is good? 40 min 1/2 IM swim, 35 min, < 30 min???? How fast are you now? Again depends on your flaws....
How will extra swim fitness impact swim/bike? It'll help....but I'm of the camp that it doesn't help all that much but opinion on this seems to vary...
Dave
Kevin in MD
Nov 1, 09 11:14
Post #11 of 24 (713 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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If you were swimming twice per week before, I would expect your sustainable pace to get better by 10 - 15% in 5 months of 4x per week swimming.
That assumes a lot, but I keep these numbers for my classes, 5 month average is 8% but the swimmers are usually not swimming 4 times per week.
Whether that makes you fast? Depends on how fast you are.
Herbie
Nov 1, 09 11:49
Post #12 of 24 (677 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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I'm in the same boat. I'd recommend the masters group for consistency and competition (you work harder in the pool with other guys around you versus alone.) Individual coaching is also a good move to focus on technique. You may not get enough 1:1 time with the masters coach.
ivansie
Nov 2, 09 6:50
Post #13 of 24 (513 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [Kevin in MD]
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If you were swimming twice per week before, I would expect your sustainable pace to get better by 10 - 15% in 5 months of 4x per week swimming.
That assumes a lot, but I keep these numbers for my classes, 5 month average is 8% but the swimmers are usually not swimming 4 times per week.
Whether that makes you fast? Depends on how fast you are.
Kevin,
I was swimming once sometimes twice a week when I was swimming (have had a long layoff due to some personal issues)
During those days my "normal" training pace for 100y in a 25y pool was around 1:52. I could never, no matter how much I tried could go below around 1:45
Thats one issue I had, that I will swim a sprint or a HIM at pretty much the same average speed
Peace
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
ivansie
Nov 2, 09 6:52
Post #14 of 24 (507 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [Herbie]
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In Reply To:
I'm in the same boat. I'd recommend the masters group for consistency and competition (you work harder in the pool with other guys around you versus alone.) Individual coaching is also a good move to focus on technique. You may not get enough 1:1 time with the masters coach.
Thats my worry, not enough attention from the coach even if I try swimming 4 or more times a week. But also just individual coaching (I have had a couple of sessions in the past with a really good coach which corrected some flaws but there has to be more) without then constant swimming will be a waste of money...ohhhhh swimming
Peace
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
h2ofun
Nov 2, 09 7:03
Post #15 of 24 (490 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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Easier with swimming to find tons of excuses as to why one cannot do Masters. It does not matter about a coach, etc. The more you swim masters, the better you might become.
I got most of the "coaching" I needed by getting a few inputs from the coaches, more from other swimmers giving my inputs, but the vast majority was watching the good swimmers swim.
Then reading comments in swim articles, and Slowtwitch.
Then it is all about muscle memory which only comes after years and years of swimming. Even though I have not been able to do Masters anymore, I still swim using what I learned 5 days a week.
And by far what I work on is just a good reach, roll, catch, high elbow, and full pull. Over and over again. If you get this down correctly, it is amazing how far one goes with so little energy.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
VHS to DVD transfers
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JBR
Nov 2, 09 7:12
Post #16 of 24 (473 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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Helping other aspects of tri... when I swam competitively in the late '60s early '70s I had a very progressive (at the time) coach. He encouraged participation in other endurance sports because it pushed anaerobic threshold. The 12 month swimmer tended to plateau and needed more and more of their pool time to warm up and move into that edgy area on the threshold. Because a bike or a run would use different muscle groups, relatively speaking, the athlete could push into this training regimen fairly quickly.
Jay
sdmike
Nov 2, 09 7:18
Post #17 of 24 (458 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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Thats my worry, not enough attention from the coach even if I try swimming 4 or more times a week. But also just individual coaching (I have had a couple of sessions in the past with a really good coach which corrected some flaws but there has to be more) without then constant swimming will be a waste of money...ohhhhh swimming
Peace
I say this in a tough love sort of way. Quit complaining and get your ass to 4 masters work outs per week. If you can afford it, 3 masters and 1 individual coach session per week. You will be faster and MUCH stronger in 4 months.
Regarding most masters coachers, yes, most don't volunteer lots of information. But, most will gladly give you lots of feedback and attention if you ask.
If you do this and in 4 months you have not improved, let's talk. But in 4 months if all you have done is your own lame workouts, you only have yourself to blame.
ivansie
Nov 2, 09 7:33
Post #18 of 24 (435 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [sdmike]
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In Reply To:
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Thats my worry, not enough attention from the coach even if I try swimming 4 or more times a week. But also just individual coaching (I have had a couple of sessions in the past with a really good coach which corrected some flaws but there has to be more) without then constant swimming will be a waste of money...ohhhhh swimming
Peace
I say this in a tough love sort of way. Quit complaining and get your ass to 4 masters work outs per week. If you can afford it, 3 masters and 1 individual coach session per week. You will be faster and MUCH stronger in 4 months.
Regarding most masters coachers, yes, most don't volunteer lots of information. But, most will gladly give you lots of feedback and attention if you ask.
If you do this and in 4 months you have not improved, let's talk. But in 4 months if all you have done is your own lame workouts, you only have yourself to blame.
Thats what I needed, thanks
Peace
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
JTRock
Nov 2, 09 8:08
Post #19 of 24 (406 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ianpeace]
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You nailed it Jimmy - perfectly comprehensive answer. Thanks for adding to the truely helpful and rational side of ST.
Ian
Hey Ian,
Can I put this on my resume? ;)
How are things man, I haven't talked seen you for a while. Hopefully soon.
Jimmy Archer
Pro Triathlete/Coach/Freelance Writer
www.jimmyarcher.com
ianpeace
Nov 2, 09 8:32
Post #20 of 24 (377 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [JTRock]
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After seeing R10C's handle in the NY Times last week I think either a) yes you can put that or anything from ST on your resume or b) the NY Times has plummeted to something akin to the Gary, Indiana Weekly Newsletter.
Ian Murray
www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @triathlondvd.
jyeager
Nov 2, 09 8:53
Post #21 of 24 (349 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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I do think that this extra swim focus will help you. Even if you lose some swim/run fitness it should come back quickly in the spring. Despite the fact that swimming is very technique based you will benefit from the greater volume because becoming exhausted leads to improvement in economy by necessity.
Joining the master's team, even if there's not much focus on technique, will help you to push your workouts harder and make LT improvements too.
For example, I credit a big improvement last season in my mtn biking to my swimming. I found I had a good amount of anaerobic capacity when I was on the mtn bike and can only credit the swimming for that.
Doing the extra swim focus is like money in the bank that will pay you interest in the years to come even if you start the spring season as a slower overall triathlete.
furiousferret
Nov 2, 09 9:45
Post #22 of 24 (307 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [jyeager]
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I'm a fairly new swimmer, only 8 months experience at age 37. My philosophy used to be, 'work on form, go slow, go long, and perfect your form'. I would do all this on my own. However, I started swimming with a former collegiate swimmer. In addition to pointing out flaws I didn't know existed, he has me doing alot of hard 50's and 100's; harder than I'd do on my own. The reasoning is the break down in form after 100 can cause bad habits in the long run.
Anyway, I improved my times drastically in just one hour. I went from a 2:06/100 to a 1:50/100 in one session, and that was at the end of a hard session. I was a bop swimmer, but now I'm fairly certain I can be mop by mid next year.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; get a coach or swim with a group that will help you.
ivansie
Nov 2, 09 10:03
Post #23 of 24 (270 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [furiousferret]
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I'm a fairly new swimmer, only 8 months experience at age 37. My philosophy used to be, 'work on form, go slow, go long, and perfect your form'. I would do all this on my own. However, I started swimming with a former collegiate swimmer. In addition to pointing out flaws I didn't know existed, he has me doing alot of hard 50's and 100's; harder than I'd do on my own. The reasoning is the break down in form after 100 can cause bad habits in the long run.
Anyway, I improved my times drastically in just one hour. I went from a 2:06/100 to a 1:50/100 in one session, and that was at the end of a hard session. I was a bop swimmer, but now I'm fairly certain I can be mop by mid next year.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; get a coach or swim with a group that will help you.
Thanks, thats exactly what I am expecting. Hopefully the masters coach will pay some attention. I am sure I will just gain speed/endurance due to the frequency and hard efforts but optimal will be also technique improvement, well see.... Ill report back :)
______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD
Team Aquaphor 06-08
d23smiley
Nov 2, 09 10:28
Post #24 of 24 (251 views)
Re: Can a 30 something become a decent swimmer and how much does swim endurance helps bike/run [ivansie]
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I was never a good swimmer. I spent a year doing lots of swimming and laps... and improved over time, but nothing helped me more than spending a month working with a coach on technique -- basically had one class a week and then practiced the technique drills a couple times a week -- afterwards I could swim "effortlessly". I highly recommend the total immersion technique (there is a book on it called total immersion). I had an instructor that wouldn't let me do any swimming except the series of total immersion drills and it broke down all my bad habits and taught be to swim efficiently -- it didn't take a ton of time/effort either so you could keep spending time on the bike/runs if you took this approach. Afterwards, I could swim faster with less effort. It was great!
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