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Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much?
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renorider
Jul 3, 09 14:16
Post #1 of 36 (1441 views)
Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much?
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Dirty little secret: I swam lots when I was a kid, so I oughta know better.
Not really a fast swimmer these days. Times below reflect this.
Did a little tester set today- 9x100, descend 1-3, 4-6, 7-9; well-recovered for each of the fast swims:
100LCM, breathing every 2, all out: 1:38
100LCM, breathing every 3, all out: 1:33
100LCM, breathing every 4, all out: 1:31
So 5 sec. faster going from every stroke to alternate breathing, and only 2 more sec. going to every 4.
Equally troubling were the slow swims:
100LCM, breathing every 2, super easy: 1:50
100LCM, breathing every 3, super easy: 1:42
100LCM, breathing every 4, super easy: 1:41
Um, 8 seconds faster for alternate breathing?
Possible causes?
My guesses- drastically better rotation when breathing to both sides, combined with less time breaking stroke to breathe. The incremental improvement going from 3 to 4 would mean I'm losing all of the rotation benefit but with additional benefit from breaking stroke less.
Yes/no/other ideas? Thanks and cheers.
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Eliot
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slowhokie
Jul 3, 09 14:19
Post #2 of 36 (1430 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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I don't know if that's as much due to alternate breathing as it is with breathing less. I mean, your fastest time would probably be 100LCM not breathing...provided you don't pass out or whatever.
ndenezzo
Jul 3, 09 14:29
Post #3 of 36 (1415 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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Well, only breathing on one side can cause your stroke to become unbalanced. Be aware, it is possible to injure your shoulder from overuse by breathing on the same side all the time.
It is possible that when you breath on one side, your form becomes sloppy as you breath. You might be dropping your arm, or your legs sink, or you lift your head too high to breath, and so on. It may be that your technique is less sloppy when you breath to the other side, so you don't waste as much time when you alternate breathing.
It has more to do with your form than with the nature of the breathing (bilateral vs unilateral). Many of the fastest swimmers breath unilaterally. Many also breath bilaterally. It just depends on whichever you can use to swim faster with better form.
renorider
Jul 3, 09 14:47
Post #4 of 36 (1381 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [slowhokie]
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I don't know if that's as much due to alternate breathing as it is with breathing less.
I thought the same thing until the improvement leveled off when switching to every 4.
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Eliot
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renorider
Jul 3, 09 14:49
Post #5 of 36 (1377 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [ndenezzo]
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Well, only breathing on one side can cause your stroke to become unbalanced. Be aware, it is possible to injure your shoulder from overuse by breathing on the same side all the time.
It is possible that when you breath on one side, your form becomes sloppy as you breath. You might be dropping your arm, or your legs sink, or you lift your head too high to breath, and so on. It may be that your technique is less sloppy when you breath to the other side, so you don't waste as much time when you alternate breathing.
It has more to do with your form than with the nature of the breathing (bilateral vs unilateral). Many of the fastest swimmers breath unilaterally. Many also breath bilaterally. It just depends on whichever you can use to swim faster with better form.
Agreed on all points. Thanks for the additional possibilities for the sloppy form. I hadn't really thought beyond shoulder rotation.
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Eliot
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Zooma
Jul 3, 09 14:56
Post #6 of 36 (1363 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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If bilateral was faster then the top simmers would swim that way in races. They don't. Look at Hacket or Thorpe in the 1,500. They breathe on one side because they want the extra oxygen it provides.
To stay balanced some of the fishes race by breathing to the same side of the pool in both directions.
schroeder
Jul 3, 09 14:59
Post #7 of 36 (1358 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [Zooma]
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If bilateral was faster then the top simmers would swim that way in races.
Many top women bilateral breathe.
p2k2001
Jul 3, 09 15:01
Post #8 of 36 (1350 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [ndenezzo]
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Quote:
Be aware, it is possible to injure your shoulder from overuse by breathing on the same side all the time.
My shoulder agrees with that statement. It was a hard lesson to learn in order to breath on the other side.
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swimfastrunslow
Jul 3, 09 15:14
Post #9 of 36 (1325 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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Breathing is an individual thing. That said, the more you breathe, the slower you go, but I would be interested to see what happens when you breathe every 5.
thetodd
Jul 3, 09 15:59
Post #10 of 36 (1275 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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I've also found it helpful in ocean open water, if there's a pretty decent swell or chop and you only breathe to one side, you might be taking in air and a huge amount of salt water. If you breathe bilaterally you could breath in the oppossite direction (shoreward) of the surf. And chicks dig it.
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(This post was
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renorider
Jul 3, 09 16:34
Post #11 of 36 (1241 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [swimfastrunslow]
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Breathing is an individual thing. That said, the more you breathe, the slower you go, but I would be interested to see what happens when you breathe every 5.
10-4. Not sure if I can survive 100 in LC pool breathing every 5! My lungs were big from many no-breathers when I was a kid; not so much any more. :)
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Eliot
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Scot
Jul 3, 09 16:57
Post #12 of 36 (1194 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [Zooma]
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For me it balances out my stroke. It also helps fr sighting in open water if for example you breathe away from shoreline if the race goes parallel to shoreline.
Zooma
Jul 3, 09 17:07
Post #13 of 36 (1179 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [swimfastrunslow]
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Breathing is an individual thing. That said, the more you breathe, the slower you go, but I would be interested to see what happens when you breathe every 5.
Breathing less is only a good thing if you are a sprinter. For everybody else it's a negative not a positive.
monty
Jul 3, 09 17:38
Post #14 of 36 (1154 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [swimfastrunslow]
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the more you breathe, the slower you go,\\
You have to keep in mind this is a triathlon forum, not who is the fastest 25yd sprinter out there. Because that is the only distance where your comment is true. Unless you think you can hold your breath for something longer, and have no ill affects form oxygen debt....
theriad
Jul 3, 09 18:36
Post #15 of 36 (1107 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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I'm curious to see what the times would be if you tried the same set but in reverse order.
renorider
Jul 3, 09 18:46
Post #16 of 36 (1092 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [theriad]
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I'm curious to see what the times would be if you tried the same set but in reverse order.
fair enough. my supplication would be that I've put in enough workouts over the years to know when I can expect to be in a non-fatigue-influenced part of a workout.
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Eliot
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PirateGirl
Jul 3, 09 18:50
Post #17 of 36 (1088 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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I am not a fish...but I have the same time differences as you do when I go from breathing every other stroke to every third for 100 M. I'm still about 5 sec/100 faster when I do 500 M. But when i go to 1000M the time difference is not as much. And 1500. I'm the same time.
Your pull might not be as efficient when you breathe, so when you breather less, you have more strokes with an efficient pull. I also seem to kick a little different when I breathe every 3rd stroke, but if I try to breathe less than every 3rd stroke, my kick is not very constant at all
I usually train every 3rd stroke for distances up to 500M. But when I race I try to swim 2, 3, 2, 3. If I'm making an effort to surge ahead a little to get on some feet I'll breathe every 3rd, and if I need a breather after a little pick up, I'll breathe every two strokes.
theriad
Jul 3, 09 19:01
Post #18 of 36 (1075 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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No problem. It's just that if I were to do the exact same set the first few hundreds would be slower. It happens to me all the time and I also have a swimming background. Give it a try you might be surprised...
show pony
Jul 3, 09 20:54
Post #19 of 36 (998 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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Mate, you shouldn't have this much of a discrepancy. You're just doing something wrong when you breathe...whether it's a small pause on the breathing stroke, lifting your head, crossing over on entry, dropping your elbow on the catch, or any number of other reasons that no online diagnosis could pick, that's what is slowing you down. The fact that you repeatedly mention "breaking stroke" somewhat confirms this...you shouldn't be. Couple of things:
1. Have you done the same set with your 2/4 breath reps on the other, less natural side? Might feel awkward but it could tell you something immediately...
2. Describe your kick? I don't kick for propulsion (apart from all-out sprints) but when I breathe bilaterally my trunk, hips & ultimately my "kick" always feel stronger & more balanced...
blood, sweat...and big gears
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fulla
Jul 3, 09 21:02
Post #20 of 36 (991 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [schroeder]
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If bilateral was faster then the top simmers would swim that way in races.
Many top women bilateral breathe.
the guys who breathe on one side are usually kicking much harder than the top women, kick uses up lots of oxygen, so they need more.
fulla
Jul 3, 09 21:05
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Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [swimfastrunslow]
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Breathing is an individual thing. That said, the more you breathe, the slower you go, but I would be interested to see what happens when you breathe every 5.
not necessarily. many of the top 100m guys will breathe every 2nd stroke throughout most of the race. maybe start off breathing every 4, than around the 35m mark will switch to every 2nd. it means they can keep their kick going much longer, since it gives them more oxygen.
50 is a different story though...heh
nproximos
Jul 3, 09 23:27
Post #22 of 36 (941 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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breathing every 2 gives you a rhythm that you can never achieve as every three.
i practice both because there are benefits to breathing every 3. during a race, i let my dominant side take over.
WillPA
Jul 4, 09 6:28
Post #23 of 36 (865 views)
Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [renorider]
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There is no 'right' answer. If you breathe properly every 3 or every 2 you're time shouldn't be significantly different. If you breathe poorly, breathing will slow you down. The idea that you can achieve a better 'rhythm' by breathing every other versus every three really makes no sense... So, if breathing more slows you down, you're probably slower while breathing... Obviously time to work on that technique...
FLA Jill
Jul 4, 09 7:58
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Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [WillPA]
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I've got a decidedly asymmetrical freestyle. Breathing on my left definitely slows me down, so I breathe right side every 4 on a 200 or less and every 2 for the longer stuff.
Never had so much as a shoulder twinge in my swim career either.
nproximos
Jul 4, 09 8:57
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Re: Fish: Why does alternate breathing help so much? [WillPA]
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you can achieve a better rhythm, especially if youre a guy. ill be happy to break it down for you if you dont quite get it
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