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For the Sub 3 marathon runners

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masterslacker

Jun 30, 09 5:17

Post #26 of 50 (1234 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

A 1:32 half with little miles and probably a fast enough 10k for the sub 2hr Oly puts in perfect for easily going sub 3. I would say if you want to be a sub 3 hour runner be a runner only. The main thing with marathon training is staying injury free. This is more important than any workout at the time. I think this is the key. As for actual running workouts, I would say do lots of tempo and fartlek work in the peak phase and only 2 long runs(18 and 20) perspectively. Oh and go easy on easy days.

Good luck, which marathon are you selecting?
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OldFart

Jun 30, 09 5:56

Post #27 of 50 (1216 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

As for the question about how close I am, I'm not. I've never ran a full marathon before, nor have I really trained for a pure running event before. I have done a 1:32 half on very little training (20-28 mpw), and came a couple of CC-hairs away from hitting the two hour mark for an oly triathlon,

From what you have written above I am thinking you need to put in miles. Nothing fancy, but good solid mileage. Assuming you swam 21min and biked 1 hour in your Olympic you would still need to run 38min or quicker to get to a 2hr Olympic. If you can run 38min 10km at the end of an Olympic you should be able to run a standalone 10km in sub 37min. If that is the case then 1:32 Half Mary is super super slow and you should be doing it in close to 1:20. THat all being said a sub 3 marathon should not be that difficult.
To run 1:32 half (and you said it was on very little mileage) suggest you have no endurance at all and you need to get in some longer runs just to run to your potential based on what I assume you can do for a 10km.
At this point if you can build to a Long run (20+ miles) and a midweek longish (12 - 15mi) and then fill in the rest with solid 8 mileish efforts you should be able to get sub 3 without to many problems.

doug in co

Jun 30, 09 7:50

Post #28 of 50 (1154 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

trained slower.. instead of doing the long run at marathon pace, did it at MP+2min/mile, that is about 8-9min/mile. That single change took me from 3:06 to 2:45.
After six marathons in four years, I'd run: 3:10, 3:08, 3:16, 3:12, 3:06, 3:10
and was about to give up. 60-70mpw, all of it hard. Joined a club where I was one of the faster runners, instead of the slowest (as in college) and the long runs slowed down as a simple matter of not abandoning the group. To my amazement this made me a lot faster..
The rest of the week stayed hard, a 5 mile time trial plus warmup/down for 8 miles most Thursdays, track work on Tues, 10 miles hilly at tempo on Mon or Wed.

With your times on not much training, sub-3 should be easy for you. More volume, more frequency, and get the long runs done. Triathletes won't run over 2 hours for the long run, but runners should. 3-4 hours slow with walk/refuelling breaks is quite reasonable.

(This post was edited by doug in co on Jun 30, 09 7:53)

Johnny99

Jun 30, 09 7:55

Post #29 of 50 (1145 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't mind at all. Good luck with your training.

Fleck

Jun 30, 09 7:59

Post #30 of 50 (1139 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [TiDriver] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to be the voice of dissent (except for johnnyo), but I didn't break 3 hours until I started doing tri's and riding ALOT

Maybe.

It's a common error here and else where to put training in silos forgetting completely about the previous training that you have done and how it's impacting performance now. There is a good reason to believe that it was all those 70 mile running weeks done previously that had more impact on your marathon performace than the fact that you started cycling or added it to the mix. You carry that kind of deep base fitness with you for a long time.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

wvarta.PolarRep

Jun 30, 09 9:29

Post #31 of 50 (1092 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actual decided in April that I wanted to go sub 3hr again and 10+ years later. I signed up for Philly in Nov did my final ride in April which is what Steve Fleck happened to say. I am 100% running and working very hard to get my 5K time down(18:35). I am at 40 miles a week and do workouts based on Daniels Running Formula, for the marathon which I will start training for in August, I will use Daniels and Advanced Marathon training by Pete P. I know I will break 3hrs becuase of my training, focus, hr training, especially recovery/easy runs and positive thoughts. I always ran well going in with my best 5K time, and this year will add more weekly mileage 60+ and faster than martahon pace temp runs.

http://www.khannouchi.com/2marathontraining.htm
Disclaimer... I WORK FOR POLAR

Fleck

Jun 30, 09 10:33

Post #32 of 50 (1052 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [wvarta.PolarRep] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I always ran well going in with my best 5K time

Bingo!

Wayne - another thing that many rec runners going for good marathon times don't get. The roots of a great marathon are in a fast and strong 5K!

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

brendel20

Jun 30, 09 19:34

Post #33 of 50 (935 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tempo runs at race pace. No need to do short intervals for the marathon(ie. 800 or 1600 repeats).

TiDriver

Jun 30, 09 19:57

Post #34 of 50 (923 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Excellent point, and good catch. There's no doubt that the accumulated base fitness was key in breaking through the 3 hour barrier, but it still surprised the hell outta me - to drop 4 min on significantly less running mileage after chipping away race after race... Most of my A races during this time were all at the Chicago Marathon, so there's a year gap between my high-mileage, run only training and my entry into tri and less running/more cycling, and my first sub-3. I'm still a proponent of cross-training - although toodling about on a bike won't do the job - long miles, hard group rides (i.e., interval training) and hill repeats paid off. My theory (as it applies to me anyway) is that you stand to gain all the endurance and a good portion of the strength by substituting focused bike training vs. run-only training. Of course, it's that 20% or so of pure leg strength that you're going to need in the last 10K of the marathon that you can only get from long/tempo runs. You also need to learn how to suffer like a dog when it gets hard - that's where the long interval training comes into play. Polish off 10 x 1 mile repeats at sub 10K pace on 1 min recovery, and you gain the confidence you'll need on race day.
_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

aerochute

Jul 1, 09 7:01

Post #35 of 50 (850 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [OldFart] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vey good point about the projected times, after you mentioned that I have to admit that I do lack enouph confidence in my running ablity even though i've been told I have the engine to run faster than I have been. Some long runs sound like just the cure!
Previously I had been doing my "long" sessions on the bike, I figured it would kill two birds with one stone, gain a lot of endurance and train for the bike. I now know to adjust that way of thinking.
Thanks again to everyone who contributed! I'll have to let you all know how I do!

Hugs and kisses,
Aerochute
Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

trimess

Jul 1, 09 7:43

Post #36 of 50 (817 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think a lot of people want easier ways out to go fast. the truth is until you are running consistent weeks over 70 miles, you really shouldn't worry too much about strength training, diet, mental attitude. Sleep is the exception, you need solid sleep, around 9 hours. But until you have that mileage up there really is not much point in worrying about the other things. The mileage is the most important factor.

Single runs per day are best, they will build strength.

Long runs aren't that important, as long as you do them and they make you tired (you should feel yourself getting better as the distance increases).

Recovery runs at a solid pace are also important. I was doing good recovery runs of 13 miles at about 30 seconds per mile slower than what my race pace turned out to be. This builds strength, which is something you really need in a marathon.

Speed is overrated. Although nice, I would take strength over speed.

Run training by itself is the way to go. Triathloning will get you fit, but you don't just want to be fit, you want your legs to be strong and able to stand up to 26.2 miles of pounding on the pavement.

Bottom line, get the mileage up, then start asking other questions.

LarryP

Jul 1, 09 7:56

Post #37 of 50 (800 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [TiDriver] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Polish off 10 x 1 mile repeats at sub 10K pace on 1 min recovery, and you gain the confidence you'll need on race day.

If you can actually do this workout, your 10k time needs serious revision.

LarryP

Jul 1, 09 8:06

Post #38 of 50 (794 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Wayne - another thing that many rec runners going for good marathon times don't get. The roots of a great marathon are in a fast and strong 5K!

And it workst the other way too...the roots of a great 5k (at the recreational level) are often found within strong marathon training. Plenty of runners set 5k thru 1/2marathon PRs untapered while preparing for a marathon due to their commitment building a strong aerobic base.

I like Fleck's earlier reference to "silos" regarding overall training. The same applies to running alone. The entire range of paces and intensities has value from the 800m thru the marathon, and the only thing that should really change from event to the event is the balance of how these elements are applied. Marathon training does not exist on a separate dimension from other training, and vice versa for the shorter events. The only exception might be the need to condition the legs for the pounding of 26.2 miles, but as far as basic fitness is concerned, the marathon is not very different than the 5-10k. In other words, too many rec runners train for months at a time to endure an epic 26.2 mile slogfest, when they would be better served training for the 10k-1/2 marathon and then spending 8-10 weeks on specific conditioning for the marathon distance.

kgp2

Jul 1, 09 12:11

Post #39 of 50 (727 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not a high mileage guy- I stick to 3 weeks at 40miles in the peak of my marathon build, but most weeks are slightly under. I run 4 days a week- 1 long run on rolling hills at marathon pace or close to it (building to 20miles- I do 3 in a typical marathon build), 1 10miler, mid week at tempo (about 1/2 marathon pace on rolling hills), 1 5-mile, run as I feel day, and 1 5mile day where I do hill work or speed work.

I'd also say that doing your long runs on race specific terrain is a big help. And most obviously, be able to run at a 6:51 average pace for over two hours VERY comfortably.

OldFart

Jul 1, 09 13:01

Post #40 of 50 (681 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [trimess] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Speed is overrated. Although nice, I would take strength over speed.

To quote a former world record holder's discussion with one of my best friends and former coach.

"Strength is speed"

trimess

Jul 1, 09 13:25

Post #41 of 50 (656 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [kgp2] [In reply to]	Can't Post

3 weeks at 40miles get's you bellow 3 hours? with only 4 days a week, you must be injury prone, or still training triathlon. You must have a really good history of running base, or lots of talent.

I guess I am talking about going significantly under 3, not just 2:59:59.

Everyone comes from different backgrounds, so it is hard to single out an optimal training regime. Also, as you get older, more mileage might not be what your body wants, but if you're still in your 20's, go for it!

wimsey

Jul 1, 09 13:46

Post #42 of 50 (640 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Have run a 2:50 and a 2:46 on 40-50 miles/week - much more running volume than that and I tend to get injured. There was other tri training in there though, so the running wasn't the sole training element.

I think the primary things that helped me post those times was (a) doing a lot of tough interval work (mostly 400 and 800m sets of various sorts), and (b) dropping weight.

G-man

Jul 1, 09 17:25

Post #43 of 50 (570 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [wimsey] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It has been said that the marathon is about 4 X 10km in distance. The first 3 x 10k is halfway point of the race and the last 10 k is the second half. Learning how to run the last 10 k is the hard part of the race. I have seen plenty of folks that could lay down a pretty good 5k, 10 k & 1/2 marathon, have had a sub three nailed thru about 23 miles and turn up short. Miles of trials and trials of miles. If you know that phrase you will understand the concept. Or to paraphrase Eddy Merckx, run a lot.

TiDriver

Jul 1, 09 20:14

Post #44 of 50 (514 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [LarryP] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The only exception might be the need to condition the legs for the pounding of 26.2 miles, but as far as basic fitness is concerned, the marathon is not very different than the 5-10k.

You're right about the 10x1 mi workout I mentioned - sub-10K pace is alot to ask for that one. I should have said sub-half/10K pace - if you can squeeze out the last 2 faster, then all the better. And I should point out that we build up to that one over the summer, as it's generally geared for the Chicago Marathon or other fall races. As for the marathon not being all that different than the 5-10K, no way. The marathon is quite different and requires a different type of fitness. Yes, 5-10K training is useful toward laying the foundation for marathon training, but the marathon requires a far greater level of strength and endurance, far more patience and a different mindset. I've seen a number of talented 5 and 10K runners stink it up at the marathon distance. I do agree that the average recreational runner would be better served in first training for 10K/1/2 marathon to the point that they build some base and train for improvement, rather than completion of the event - otherwise, you're right that they're in for a slogfest at the marathon.
_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

LarryP

Jul 1, 09 21:40

Post #45 of 50 (488 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [TiDriver] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

As for the marathon not being all that different than the 5-10K, no way. The marathon is quite different and requires a different type of fitness. Yes, 5-10K training is useful toward laying the foundation for marathon training, but the marathon requires a far greater level of strength and endurance, far more patience and a different mindset. I've seen a number of talented 5 and 10K runners stink it up at the marathon distance. I do agree that the average recreational runner would be better served in first training for 10K/1/2 marathon to the point that they build some base and train for improvement, rather than completion of the event - otherwise, you're right that they're in for a slogfest at the marathon.

On a big picture level, I don't disagree with anything above. No doubt that the marathon does require a heightened level of stamina, durability, and patience beyond that which is needed for the 5-10k. And it is true the event has humbled many fleet footed 5k and 10k runners who mistakenly think they can merely throw in some long runs and be fully prepared to tackle the marathon. However, marathon pace will always exist as a percentage of LT pace, which exists as a percentage of 10k pace, which exists as a percentage of 5k pace. Everything exists along a continuum and at some point there will be a point of limited returns from an unbalanced emphasis upon "marathon training."

I certainly don't advocate the old "10k training plus a few 20 milers" marathon training plan, but too many athletes (including some notable elites, but mostly rec types) have made the mistake of focusing many months at a time upon "marathon training" to the neglect of the other performance elements that are critical for all distances. As this thread has been directed at a recreational subset of runners (albeit closer to the faster end of "recreational") who are most apt to lock themselves into a narrow silo of "marathon training" to the exclusion of all other distances and training elements, I believe it is appropriate to make the point that you train to improve the basic markers of distance running fitness first, then specialize in the specific event. Perhaps I was misleading to suggest that you can run a good marathon off 10k training alone. That's definitely not the case! Bottom line: get in good running overall running shape first, then spend 10-14 weeks focusing on the specific event, in this case the marathon.

sub-3-dad

Jul 1, 09 23:29

Post #46 of 50 (468 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Rycase] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I did it on 3 - 4 runs/week

Wednesday: Long run - hitting 30km 10 weeks out from Race day
Friday: Marathon Paced Run - Up to 70 minuites at Mara Pace (4:15/km)
Sunday:Tempo Run: 10x800 on 3:00/400m recovery
Monday: Fartlek - I did this about every second Monday

In Reply To:

One very simple question, what permanent (or race season permanant) changes did you make in order to be able to break the 3 hour mark?
I'm not talking about training specifically, but if you did something that truly helped you get to a sub 3 then by all means shout it out!
Thaks in advance for the insight,

Increased frequency of running (IE 8-11 runs per week), and run daily now, the Sub 3 hour barrier is completely relative to your capabilities on other distances though.

Completely open question as others have indicated, if you are a 18:xx 5K runner, then I would say tremendous volume would get you there, but as a Sub 17 runner, simply running regularly will smash the 3 hour barrier , with room for bathroom breaks :)

Interestingly, someone mentioned giving up triathlon - while I agree that shifting your focus to RUNNING as opposed to triathlon is great, the strength training from doing spinervals alone would help you break the barrier if you are close.

Just my .02
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My Blog

Bum

Jul 2, 09 10:00

Post #47 of 50 (392 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [sub-3-dad] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm finding it interesting that so many of you have said that of all the components that could go into a marathon training plan (high volume, MP runs, intervals, racing, etc.) that the weekly "long run" is not so important. I rarely go over 15 miles in training - maybe one 18 or 19 miler with the middle 10 at MP about 3 weeks out - but that's it. I see several others here who won't go over 2 hours. I agree. It's interesting that so many folks running much slower than 3 feel as though the long run is the single most important element in their plan, yet they don't improve.

d2xccoach

Jul 3, 09 21:25

Post #48 of 50 (300 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

To get back to your original question, the change I made that I believe allowed me to break 3 for the first time was mental. I stopped thinking about per mile pace, and started thinking that to break 3 hours you need to run about 42:30 for 10k, and then do that 4 times back to back. At the time I was a mid 37 stand-alone 10k runner and often did around 39 flat to low 40:00 in tri's. I never ran a lot of long training runs but did regular runs in the 1:30-1:45 range, and I did a lot of my training really hard, probably too much in hindsight.

When I was comfortable running mid 37 10k's on a regular basis the idea of 42:30 10k's in a marathon seemed like a no-brainer. Confidence is 75% of the battle...

wvarta.PolarRep

Jul 4, 09 7:19

Post #49 of 50 (247 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is a great topic that I think will be revisted in the Fall when many of us may attempt a marathon and some go for a sub 3hr. Hopefully we remain healthy, pick a training program, watch our recovery and nutrition and get it done!
Disclaimer... I WORK FOR POLAR

aerochute

Jul 4, 09 12:24

Post #50 of 50 (222 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [d2xccoach] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The change I made that I believe allowed me to break 3 for the first time was mental."
This is awesome! Now that you mention it thinking of a marathon as 4 10k's does sound a lot more managable! After reading that I stopped and thought to myself, "Yeah? Wow, I really have a shot at this...". I suppose that a lot of this sounds painfully obvious to a lot of people, but a person (such as myself) that does not have any prior sport background this is still very new. It is funny to think how much information we sometimes miss because it is assumed to be common sense.

Really can't thank everyone enouph, if you see a skiny tattooed guy passing you at a race know that you helped me make my goal!

And if you see a skinney tattooed guy passed out on the side of the road in a pile of his own blood and vomit at a race... well, know that I tried....
Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

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