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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
For the Sub 3 marathon runners

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aerochute

Jun 29, 09 15:10

Post #1 of 50 (2472 views)

For the Sub 3 marathon runners	Can't Post

One very simple question, what permanent (or race season permanant) changes did you make in order to be able to break the 3 hour mark?
I'm not talking about training specifically, but if you did something that truly helped you get to a sub 3 then by all means shout it out!
Thaks in advance for the insight,
Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

Paulo Sousa

Jun 29, 09 15:17

Post #2 of 50 (2457 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

One very simple question, what permanent (or race season permanant) changes did you make in order to be able to break the 3 hour mark?
I'm not talking about training specifically...

Yes, because that's not the important part, right???

I did more mileage (max 70mi) and more marathon pace workouts.
-

pstriathlon.com

DHeineck

Jun 29, 09 15:18

Post #3 of 50 (2454 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Far too nebulous a question. What do you really want to ask? How close are you to a 3:00 Marathon?

I didn't do anything particularly special--went from an early october 3:09:XX on a harder course (PDX) to a 2:57:XX on an easier course (RR AZ) in January by simply maintaining an equal amount of exhaustion every week ;-)

For me, I realized that running longer than 2:00 in training is dumb for me, since I don't lack the confidence to go the distance, and my form starts falling apart pretty quick thereafter, leading to longer recovery times. Peak weeks, I was getting to a point of doing 2-2hr runs a week. In hindsight, I could have afforded actually running hard a bit more often. There are no magic bullets to going sub-3, so put in the miles and figure out what you were doing right and or wrong in your training before and adjust from there.

Good luck,
D

mom08

Jun 29, 09 15:19

Post #4 of 50 (2452 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

commitment and 70+ mileage weeks. check of Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger. I went from low 3:00s to a 2:45 at the Houston Marathon and placed in the money. the "Program" was tough, but worth the effort. I felt like I had been shot out a cannon at the start and had to work at slowing down instead of speeding up. I was very prepared for the race.

Fleck

Jun 29, 09 15:50

Post #5 of 50 (2393 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is triathlon forum so I make the assumption you are a triathlete. If so, the simplest advice that I can give you is to forget triathlon for 6 months to a year and just focus running and the marathon. Many are surprised at the gains in their running when they do this.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

Johnny99

Jun 29, 09 15:51

Post #6 of 50 (2393 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Really simple, just run lots. No substitute for volume. I got to low 2:40's with almost no speed work. Usually running twice a day, 20 on Sunday all at once. 80-90 mpw. Great way to save money. Only buying food and running shoes, no social life to get in the way. Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

Rycase

Jun 29, 09 15:55

Post #7 of 50 (2376 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Increased frequency of running (IE 8-11 runs per week), and run daily now, the Sub 3 hour barrier is completely relative to your capabilities on other distances though.

Completely open question as others have indicated, if you are a 18:xx 5K runner, then I would say tremendous volume would get you there, but as a Sub 17 runner, simply running regularly will smash the 3 hour barrier , with room for bathroom breaks :)

Interestingly, someone mentioned giving up triathlon - while I agree that shifting your focus to RUNNING as opposed to triathlon is great, the strength training from doing spinervals alone would help you break the barrier if you are close.

Just my .02
___________________________________
BLUE SEVENTY | ADIDAS
http://www.tri-shark.org
http://www.oftenrunningracing.com

Rycase

Jun 29, 09 15:56

Post #8 of 50 (2374 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Johnny99] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Agree completely.

Frequency + Volume = Fast Marathons
___________________________________
BLUE SEVENTY | ADIDAS
http://www.tri-shark.org
http://www.oftenrunningracing.com

Bum

Jun 29, 09 16:18

Post #9 of 50 (2324 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Rycase] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lots of common themes here. I'll second the commitment to 70+mph weeks. Week after week. That volume not only gets you fit enough, it also forces your body to adapt and develop efficiencies that will make you a much better runner. Once I bumped to 70 and held it for a couple of months, I noticed my arm carry was different and my stride was much smoother.

I'll second the Pfitzinger 70 mile a week plan. It's tough, especially that "medium long run" he puts in. Daniel's marathon plan is good too - very similar and a little less structured, but the same basic principles.

First time I broke 3, I simply did 10 weeks of 70 miles per week. Not one single hard run except for a 15 mile MP run 3 weeks out. I think that was the only time I was under 8 minutes a mile for 2 and a half months. My wife just ran a 3:20 on 60 mile weeks, and also didn't do any speedwork and rarely cracked 9 minutes on her daily runs. The big volume works.

JoeO

Jun 29, 09 17:00

Post #10 of 50 (2257 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The three biggest factors are these

1. High weekly mileage. How high? Well 70 is a good number but if you can do more without killing yourself, that's even better)
2. Marathon-paced mileage
3. Consistency in both of the above

You ignore any of them at your peril

Note that I don't have "Long Runs" on here... They matter but not as much as any of these.

(This post was edited by JoeO on Jun 29, 09 17:01)

aerochute

Jun 29, 09 17:30

Post #11 of 50 (2199 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [DHeineck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You're right, the question is very open ended... but I got some good advice so far! Originally I was thinking that people would post things like, "never pass a water fountain without taking a drink", or "don't forget circuit training". I will know to be more specific.
I put in the stipulation about training because I didn't (and still don't) want to hear about a really-fast super-secret track workout that they heard about.... (disclaimer: I know training is the most important part. But I also know that training extendes far beyond what you do when you have your running shoes and short-shorts on.)
As for the question about how close I am, I'm not. I've never ran a full marathon before, nor have I really trained for a pure running event before. I have done a 1:32 half on very little training (20-28 mpw), and came a couple of CC-hairs away from hitting the two hour mark for an oly triathlon, but that is as far as it goes.
I recently decided to give the marathon a go and decided that I might as well go big or go home as all the kids are saying these days :).
Once again, thanks for the insight and book recomendations. It is appreciated!
Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

aerochute

Jun 29, 09 17:41

Post #12 of 50 (2178 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Johnny99] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hope you don't mind, but I have to steal that as a sig line!
Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

persondude27

Jun 29, 09 17:50

Post #13 of 50 (2157 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Johnny99] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.

Don't worry. It won't take long. At all.

jonnyo

Jun 29, 09 18:12

Post #14 of 50 (2127 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I STRONGLY DISAGREE

super fitness on the swim and on the bike..... only way to surive the first 5.5h of the ironman and post a sub 3h marathon!

this is a triathlon site after all.....;)
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

mullinsm

Jun 29, 09 18:22

Post #15 of 50 (2100 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jonnyo, I'm with Fleck on this one. Don't forget that the OP is talking about standalone marathon running.

In 2008 I did no triathlon and focused solely on running. I got my weekly mileage up into the upper 50's/lower 60's for a few months, week after week, and my running improved dramatically. No surprise, really, but it works, especially for those of us with jobs and only limited hours to train.

mm

jonnyo

Jun 29, 09 18:25

Post #16 of 50 (2089 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [mullinsm] [In reply to]	Can't Post

oh boy..... you cant play along cant you??? .....;)
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

(This post was edited by jonnyo on Jun 29, 09 18:26)

tramirez

Jun 29, 09 18:26

Post #17 of 50 (2085 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

A good rest is what I needed.

I was stuck running around 3:07 - 3:09 for a couple years, running two marathons a year. I ran a marathon in late September and then didn't have any plans for the rest of the year. In early November I got a chance t run Tucson in December. With only four weeks to get ready I wasn't sure what would happen but I ran it anyway.

I started easy, just meaning to have fun and before I knew it, I finished in 2:58. I think the extra rest and the relaxed attitude was what helped the most.

mts

Jun 29, 09 18:31

Post #18 of 50 (2077 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

My first open marathon was a 3:01...right after college. I eventually got down to 2:33:xx by my sixth.

Keys for me were:
1) gradually increase mileage up to about 70-80 mpw
2) include one hilly run, one faster run and one longer run per week
3) raced all distances pretty frequently
4) trained with a group that was faster than me
5) lost most excess weight, skinny=fast

Matt

Enginefour

Jun 29, 09 19:17

Post #19 of 50 (2015 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

it was all about body composition for me, light equals fast. You can take a look at the 2:45 guys and see see how skinny they are.

tsdudley

Jun 29, 09 19:34

Post #20 of 50 (1975 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [Enginefour] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For me and some of my training partners, 40 mile weeks along with all the other training associated with triathlon is enough. When focusing on a marathon, about 10 weeks of the longer tempo runs, 12-14 miles where 8 miles or so is just above 10 k pace, and build runs works for me. You need to discover what works for you. My times from just running marathons (70+ mile weeks) to now are generally the same with much less running and injury.

IRONwolf

Jun 29, 09 19:43

Post #21 of 50 (1959 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For my first sub 3 and the two that followed it, did the following:

-get more sleep

-add mileage (in the form of an easy 4 every morning)

-focused on core work

-ran with guy who were faster

-did lots of strength training

I got to 2:52 of peak mileage of about 70 MPW. and I am sure I would have gone faster if I had of paced better as I hit the 20 mile mark in like 1:55 or so.

As it turns out, what you have is less important than what you do with it...
-Bernd Heinrich, why we run

IRONwolf

Jun 29, 09 19:46

Post #22 of 50 (1950 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

FWIW, my last marathon before I started trying was about 3:12, after I put in the work I went 2:57, 2:55 then 2:52. I am trying to go 3:10 in december of this year.

As it turns out, what you have is less important than what you do with it...
-Bernd Heinrich, why we run

TiDriver

Jun 29, 09 19:47

Post #23 of 50 (1949 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to be the voice of dissent (except for johnnyo), but I didn't break 3 hours until I started doing tri's and riding ALOT. I started as a runner and did my first marathon in '97 - Chicago, 3:10:41. I wanted to get to Boston and REALLY wanted to break 3 hours, so I put in 70 mile weeks and did the hard work. I made incremental gains, chipping off a minute here and there, but never saw a big jump until I started tri training. Can't remember the exact times, but it seems to me that I went from the 3:01 neighborhood to 2:57 on less running mileage. I'd say I went from about 70 miles/week to around 40 mpw (all quality) + 200+ mpw on the bike. I don't think swimming will help you break 3 hours, but it's invaluable for recovery from running. I ran my PR marathon (2:51) 6 weeks out from IMWI '03 (although you have to take into consideration that I totally blew my hydration on the bike and ended up walking most of the marathon, so my legs were plenty fresh). These days, I can go sub-3 on 40 mpw, as long as I get in at least 3 20 milers, one of which has to be really solid (i.e., maintain race-pace and finish feeling strong). Other than that, I get in one long-distance interval workout (repeats of 800m-2 mi) and one tempo run (6-12 mi strong) per week. Throw in a couple hundred in the saddle and a T-run and I'm good to go. Don't know if it'll work for everybody, but it does for me.
_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

dr.tri

Jun 29, 09 19:54

Post #24 of 50 (1937 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

All the previous posts apply, especially pace consistency. After years of just missing, I finally cracked 3:00 when I decided continue tri training and not just running.One Sunday I entered the San Diego Marathon on the day of the race in Carlsbad instead of my long run.When I got to the 20 mi. mark it felt good and I finished strong. Have not run a marathon since.
>
>
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I got old once, did not like it, so I got young again.

TriCeratops

Jun 29, 09 20:12

Post #25 of 50 (1908 views)

Re: For the Sub 3 marathon runners [aerochute] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Consistent training was the key for me. I rarely run more than 50 miles per week, but I run 6 days a week every week. I do one or two tempo runs each week (I don't do track work outs.) I went from a 3:42 to a 2:56 over the course of about 4 years. Maybe not a huge gain, but I've steadily improved my times, and I am still improving.

Mike Sparks

I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

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