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Math of Salt loss
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dcsxtri10
Oct 28, 09 7:57
Post #1 of 18 (588 views)
Math of Salt loss
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Maybe its just me ... but did anyone find this helpful in your race planning other than we ought to take in fluids and salts while we race???? I think we already knew that ;-)
Dave
DougRob
Oct 28, 09 8:01
Post #2 of 18 (573 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dcsxtri10]
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FWIW: It did show that electrolyte replacement should begin early and then done with regularity throughout the event.
bjohn34
Oct 28, 09 8:03
Post #3 of 18 (564 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dcsxtri10]
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Earth-shattering stuff... yawn... gimme me a break...
M~
Oct 28, 09 8:05
Post #4 of 18 (559 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dcsxtri10]
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http://www.sportsscientists.com/...h/label/electrolytes
*****----------------------------------------*****
Interviewer: What's your prediction for the fight?
Clubber Lang: My prediction?
Interviewer: Yes, your prediction.
Clubber Lang: Pain!
jackmott
Oct 28, 09 8:06
Post #5 of 18 (558 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [DougRob]
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FWIW: It did show that electrolyte replacement should begin early and then done with regularity throughout the event.
I'm not sure it showed anything since it is just a simplified mathematicall model and in the article itself it mentions that is doesn't even reflect reality:
Quote:
How does this reconcile with real-world results? Studies have shown that electrolyte loss is real but that plasma electrolyte levels do not appear to change significantly early in exercise. In the case of sodium, plasma levels can actually rise due to loss of plasma volume (as shown in the above mathematical model). For potassium, the intracellular (within the cell) content is significantly higher than that of the plasma, and as a result transport of potassium out of cells can replace some of that which is lost in sweat. However, in both cases, upon rehydration, the final concentration of electrolytes in plasma will fall. Look no further for real-life examples than the cases of hyponatremia at Ironmans and marathons around the world on a regular basis.
So what im reading is, "here is some simple math that shows you need to eat salt"
then "actual research shows salt loss isn't as profound as the math above shows, but sometimes people get sick in ironmans so you need to eat salt"
I'm not sure what to make of this.
=)
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rockfish
Oct 28, 09 9:26
Post #6 of 18 (462 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [jackmott]
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if anyone has alternative articles that would recommend I would be keenly interested in reading them. Last race ended up with hyponetremia and blood work showed my salt dipped to 119. I was supplmenting with salt pills but over did the liquids. (long story).
Thanks,
RF
dawhead
Oct 28, 09 9:37
Post #7 of 18 (443 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [M~]
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too bad they seem to have never published "Cramps: Part III" ...
JohnnyKay
Oct 28, 09 10:12
Post #8 of 18 (395 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dawhead]
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http://www.sportsscientists.com/...-cramp-part-iii.html
M~
Oct 28, 09 10:12
Post #9 of 18 (393 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dawhead]
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too bad they seem to have never published "Cramps: Part III" ...
you were saying.... ;)
*****----------------------------------------*****
Interviewer: What's your prediction for the fight?
Clubber Lang: My prediction?
Interviewer: Yes, your prediction.
Clubber Lang: Pain!
ericM35-39
Oct 28, 09 10:28
Post #10 of 18 (370 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [jackmott]
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you didn't read deep enough.... the reason that sodium solution LEVELS do not go down early in exercise is because of dehydration, ie. less blood plasma volume. The absolute amount of sodium does go down.
The "so what" of that is that if you're exercising for a few hours, it's not that big of a deal, but if you are RACING you need to keep hydration levels up at all times, which in turn will require you to supplement early and often w/ sodium to avoid high hydration/low sodium situation of hyponutremia.
jackmott
Oct 28, 09 10:32
Post #11 of 18 (366 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [ericM35-39]
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yeah I get that much
but we have these tables with absolute HARD NUMBERS, which are in fact meaningless since they don't reflect reality.
what are tha tables THERE for?
Are the conclusions at the end of the article based on those tables? why? if not, what are they based on?
In Reply To:
you didn't read deep enough.... the reason that sodium solution LEVELS do not go down early in exercise is because of dehydration, ie. less blood plasma volume. The absolute amount of sodium does go down.
The "so what" of that is that if you're exercising for a few hours, it's not that big of a deal, but if you are RACING you need to keep hydration levels up at all times, which in turn will require you to supplement early and often w/ sodium to avoid high hydration/low sodium situation of hyponutremia.
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(This post was
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by jackmott on Oct 28, 09 14:38)
ericM35-39
Oct 28, 09 14:31
Post #12 of 18 (287 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [jackmott]
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well, I've said as much to Jordan and Slowman, but I would prefer not to have these "Xtri" style articles on Slowtwitch. I love Xtri don't get me wrong, but I like those articles there and would prefer ST to stay above the fray. This article is only slightly above the cut line, but you're right it's missing the conclusion.
good point... did not follow the format of a standard argumentative essay.
jackmott
Oct 28, 09 14:41
Post #13 of 18 (268 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [ericM35-39]
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I think the article is interseting. I guess we can look at those tables as an upper bound or something at least.
electrolye/fueling/cramping is one of the big challenges when you step up from half to ironman and I'd love for science to get a grip on whats really going on.
In Reply To:
well, I've said as much to Jordan and Slowman, but I would prefer not to have these "Xtri" style articles on Slowtwitch. I love Xtri don't get me wrong, but I like those articles there and would prefer ST to stay above the fray. This article is only slightly above the cut line, but you're right it's missing the conclusion.
good point... did not follow the format of a standard argumentative essay.
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SLC_vt98
Oct 28, 09 14:45
Post #14 of 18 (259 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [ericM35-39]
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Reading between the lines I find the door left open to encourage athletes (if they so desire) to subject themselves to a series of tests (such as sweat rate, post endurance effort blood tests and baseline blood chemistry) to try and put some real world numbers on the model as it pertains to them.
Just my $0.02.
...
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jsquared
Oct 28, 09 15:02
Post #15 of 18 (232 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [jackmott]
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yeah I get that much
but we have these tables with absolute HARD NUMBERS, which are in fact meaningless since they don't reflect reality.
what are tha tables THERE for?
Are the conclusions at the end of the article based on those tables? why? if not, what are they based on?
You Jokers are a tough crowd.
The article is quite useful from a theoretical standpoint and the tables do a good job to show the balance necessary to maintain a safe range of hydration & sodium concentration for very long periods of exercise. The example athlete, a 1L/hr sweater is a fair assumption depending on the conditions.
From a practical standpoint I'll agree the numbers are a bit useless to a guy like me who can leak out close to 3 liters an hour with an unknown sodium loss rate in hot weather but as a bare minimum reading and understanding the concept of the tables can at least provide some direction for a hydration/sodium strategy for long distance racing.
If you understand the concept you can create a table with your own "hard numbers".
JJ
A Cake???
I don't even have the ingredients for the batter right now!
ericM35-39
Oct 28, 09 15:14
Post #16 of 18 (217 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [SLC_vt98]
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that's a good point.
techrunner
Oct 28, 09 15:48
Post #17 of 18 (198 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dcsxtri10]
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Guess I'm in the minority here. Found it interesting and helpful. Used the article info and formulas to build my own spreadsheet model to simulate modification of his variables (sweat rate, Na content of sweat, weight, etc.) and rehydration schemes with water, vs. Electrolyte drink vs thermolyte caps. Sure there are other unaccounted variables, but the article enabled me to create some good simulations and scenario evals....
Mito Chondria
Oct 28, 09 15:50
Post #18 of 18 (194 views)
Re: Math of Salt loss [dcsxtri10]
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You can measure your sweat rate in a given condition and also measure your electrolyte concentration to figure out the weight of each of the minerals that you lose.
But you have to be careful as you don't have to replace all of what is lost as your body stores minerals. If you were to try to replace all that your body loses with salt pills, etc. you could run the risk of creating an environment in your stomach that is too concentrated and that could create some side effects you don't want to mess with.
I'd test fluid and electrolyte replacement during training. You know if you are a heavy sweater or not, and try to adjust your fluid and electrolyte use accordingly. I don't think it's how much minerals you supplement during your ride with, as much as it is what concentration you supplement with at any time.
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