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Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence..
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grosso27
Nov 3, 09 5:47
Post #1 of 69 (1224 views)
Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence..
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Purchased a PowerTap a few months back.
Haven't been doing much with the data, mainly just riding right now to get a feel for how it works, and how I feel at certain wattage levels.
I am nearly finished with the Allen/Coggan book, and unless I made a glaring omission in my reading, I'm not certain I understand how cadence plays a role into the power equation.
Now I certainly understand how power differs from cadence, but I guess what I am trying to make clear is >
If I am producing 225w at 110rpm vs same wattage in different gearing at 90rpm, what does this tell me?
Do I have to look at HR to see what is best?
What determines what is optimal, if wattage output remains static, while cadence is dynamic?
Hope I made it clear, just seems like a missing link to me.
Thanks
Ed
Andrew Coggan
Nov 3, 09 6:05
Post #2 of 69 (1205 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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If I am producing 225w at 110rpm vs same wattage in different gearing at 90rpm, what does this tell me?
That you are producing 225 W.
In Reply To:
Do I have to look at HR to see what is best?
Heart rate is simply a dependent variable that reflects cardiovascular strain - so, no.
In Reply To:
What determines what is optimal, if wattage output remains static, while cadence is dynamic?
Perceived effort/actual performance (e.g., ability to match the acceleration of others if racing in a pack, ability to run well if you're a triathlete).
In Reply To:
just seems like a missing link to me.
Only in the evolution of fish (sorry, inside joke).
grosso27
Nov 3, 09 6:10
Post #3 of 69 (1199 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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So then, as a defined wattage can be achieved with different rpm's, it's subjective what the optimal cadence is to get to that wattage?
Ie, if I am doing an indoor trainer session, and I want to maintain a defined % of FTP, let's say 200w, there is no 'right' cadence to produce that wattage?
It's just something I will have to play around with over time to find out which cadence gives me the desired wattage output & speed, yet also leaves me with enough gas in the tank to still run?
Thanks for your help.
gabbiev
Nov 3, 09 6:33
Post #4 of 69 (1174 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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So then, as a defined wattage can be achieved with different rpm's, it's subjective what the optimal cadence is to get to that wattage?
Ie, if I am doing an indoor trainer session, and I want to maintain a defined % of FTP, let's say 200w, there is no 'right' cadence to produce that wattage?
It's just something I will have to play around with over time to find out which cadence gives me the desired wattage output & speed, yet also leaves me with enough gas in the tank to still run?
Thanks for your help.
It depends on your training philosophy and the goals for your training sessions; in general, though, there seems to be a good argument to let your cadence self-select, rather than choosing a specific cadence range to structure your power-based intervals.
RChung
Nov 3, 09 6:48
Post #5 of 69 (1151 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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Purchased a PowerTap a few months back.
What determines what is optimal, if wattage output remains static, while cadence is dynamic?
Sounds like you want to know
whether you can use power data to find optimal cadence
.
Francois
Nov 3, 09 6:54
Post #6 of 69 (1142 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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All you have to do is read this thread:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#2539875
enjoy :-)
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.francoismodave.com
grosso27
Nov 3, 09 6:55
Post #7 of 69 (1140 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [RChung]
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It's actually not at all that I am looking for optimal cadence.
As I said, I'm just in the learning phase of power, and it's all very new to me.
However, I realized while riding on the trainer & trying to follow some %FTP workout sessions, that I could hit that % either by spinning fast in a high gear, or spinning slow in a lower gear, and I wondered if there was a right/wrong.
RChung
Nov 3, 09 7:16
Post #8 of 69 (1099 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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In Reply To:
It's actually not at all that I am looking for optimal cadence.
As I said, I'm just in the learning phase of power, and it's all very new to me.
However, I realized while riding on the trainer & trying to follow some %FTP workout sessions, that I could hit that % either by spinning fast in a high gear, or spinning slow in a lower gear, and I wondered if there was a right/wrong.
Then perhaps what you're saying is that you'd like to better understand
the components of power
.
jyeager
Nov 3, 09 7:27
Post #9 of 69 (1079 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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In Reply To:
It's actually not at all that I am looking for optimal cadence.
As I said, I'm just in the learning phase of power, and it's all very new to me.
However, I realized while riding on the trainer & trying to follow some %FTP workout sessions, that I could hit that % either by spinning fast in a high gear, or spinning slow in a lower gear, and I wondered if there was a right/wrong.
That's an objective measurement of power output. With only a very small difference due to mechanical efficiencies both cadences will push your bike at the same speed down the road.
But yes, you would then want to look at heart rate to tell which of the 2 cadences might be most efficient for you physiologically.
grosso27
Nov 3, 09 7:36
Post #10 of 69 (1062 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [RChung]
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Firstly, great links, thanks for those. I knew there wasn't a defined curvalinear relationship b/t power & cadence, but the article spells out well how to approach it. But the question remains then, how do I approach the training? There will be several different cadence/gear combos that allow me to achieve the desired wattage output. Do I just go on what 'feels best' ? Or play around and see what leaves the legs feeling freshest for a run?
The article states "ride at cadence X and torque (or wattage) Y."
Power metrics are often prescribed as part of a workout.
Cadence, in my experience, is not.
High cadence / high torque? Max achievable of both simultaneously then being the optimal workout?
Andrew Coggan
Nov 3, 09 7:48
Post #11 of 69 (1047 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [jyeager]
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you would then want to look at heart rate to tell which of the 2 cadences might be most efficient for you physiologically.
Heart rate is not a measure of efficiency.
msuguy512
Nov 3, 09 8:16
Post #12 of 69 (1014 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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What are your goals? If you are going to do some bike racing then you probably want to be able to generate power at a higher RPM. If you are doing flatish Time Trial's then you will also probably want to ride at a high RPM as well. Armstrong and Cancellara blew everyone away with their higher cadences. If you are doing Ironman's maybe you want to follow BS & CW and pedal at 80-85RPM. You need to account for what your body is doing and what your goals are. No easy answer.
Frank Day
Nov 3, 09 8:19
Post #13 of 69 (1009 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
If I am producing 225w at 110rpm vs same wattage in different gearing at 90rpm, what does this tell me?
That you are producing 225 W.
In Reply To:
Do I have to look at HR to see what is best?
Heart rate is simply a dependent variable that reflects cardiovascular strain - so, no.
Ugh, if one were interested in minimizing the "cardiovasucular strain" at that 225 watts (or any watts but why on earth would anyone want to do that?) then the answer, I think, would be yes.
Frank (can't be a scientist because I'm a physician) Day - Inventor of PowerCranks
Exercise physiologists don't DO "mechanisms" - de-tri-mental
Andrew Coggan
Nov 3, 09 8:24
Post #14 of 69 (996 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Frank Day]
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Ugh, if one were interested in minimizing the "cardiovasucular strain" at that 225 watts (or any watts but why on earth would anyone want to do that?)
"Ugh" - yes, that is the question.
Frank Day
Nov 3, 09 8:25
Post #15 of 69 (995 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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you would then want to look at heart rate to tell which of the 2 cadences might be most efficient for you physiologically.
Heart rate is not a measure of efficiency.
No, but it does, under most circumstances, correlate pretty well with oxygen consumption. From that (with a few basic assumptions) efficiency can be calculated.
Frank (can't be a scientist because I'm a physician) Day - Inventor of PowerCranks
Exercise physiologists don't DO "mechanisms" - de-tri-mental
grosso27
Nov 3, 09 8:28
Post #16 of 69 (986 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Frank Day]
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If I am producing 225w at 110rpm vs same wattage in different gearing at 90rpm, what does this tell me?
That you are producing 225 W.
Ok. it does indeed tell me that i am producting 225w regardless of cadence, heart rate, etc etc.
I get it.
Again, the question is > > > Since I can produce the desired wattage many different ways, does it matter which one is chosen??
This is seeming like a futile effort............
Andrew Coggan
Nov 3, 09 8:28
Post #17 of 69 (986 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Frank Day]
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it does, under most circumstances, correlate pretty well with oxygen consumption.
In a laboratory-style setting, yes. In the field (or in someone's basement/garage), not so much.
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From that (with a few basic assumptions) efficiency can be calculated.
Knowing somebody's heart rate doesn't help you
estimate
their efficiency.
Andrew Coggan
Nov 3, 09 8:30
Post #18 of 69 (983 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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Again, the question is > > > Since I can produce the desired wattage many different ways, does it matter which one is chosen??
It can - that is why I said you should choose the cadence that maximizes your performance (which, depending on the circumstance, is usually also the one that minimizes your perceived effort).
Frank Day
Nov 3, 09 8:31
Post #19 of 69 (982 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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Ugh, if one were interested in minimizing the "cardiovasucular strain" at that 225 watts (or any watts but why on earth would anyone want to do that?)
"Ugh" - yes, that is the question.
Then, we should be debating whether it is advantageous to increase efficiency.
You are the one who advocates that performance is limited by the the performance of the heart. Why on earth wouldn't you want to modify the strain on the heart such that the limit would be reached at a higher power?
I don't even believe that the heart is the limiter and I still believe that for any given power it is a generally wiser technique to minimize effort for that power.
Frank (can't be a scientist because I'm a physician) Day - Inventor of PowerCranks
Exercise physiologists don't DO "mechanisms" - de-tri-mental
Frank Day
Nov 3, 09 8:33
Post #20 of 69 (976 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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In Reply To:
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it does, under most circumstances, correlate pretty well with oxygen consumption.
In a laboratory-style setting, yes. In the field (or in someone's basement/garage), not so much.
It doesn't? Do you have a reference to support that claim?
Frank (can't be a scientist because I'm a physician) Day - Inventor of PowerCranks
Exercise physiologists don't DO "mechanisms" - de-tri-mental
jackmott
Nov 3, 09 8:38
Post #21 of 69 (965 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Frank Day]
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one time I was pedalling really hard and my legs burned so bad I had to stop by my heart rate wasn't that high.
sooo, i think andrew is trying to say theres plenty of times in cycling when cardio isn't the limiter
and your cadence affects that
and so on
"it depends" in other words. if you always try to make 225 watts at minimal heart rate, you might be introducing fatigue of other kinds.
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
it does, under most circumstances, correlate pretty well with oxygen consumption.
In a laboratory-style setting, yes. In the field (or in someone's basement/garage), not so much.
It doesn't? Do you have a reference to support that claim?
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grosso27
Nov 3, 09 8:42
Post #22 of 69 (961 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Andrew Coggan]
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This makes sense now.
Cadence that maximizes performance, while allowing for least amount of perceived effort expenditure.
If only I had that lab equipment in my living room to keep an eye on oxygen consumption. :)
Andrew & Frank, you've both been very helpful. Thanks.
Frank Day
Nov 3, 09 8:47
Post #23 of 69 (955 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [jackmott]
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one time I was pedalling really hard and my legs burned so bad I had to stop by my heart rate wasn't that high.
sooo, i think andrew is trying to say theres plenty of times in cycling when cardio isn't the limiter
and your cadence affects that
and so on
"it depends" in other words. if you always try to make 225 watts at minimal heart rate, you might be introducing fatigue of other kinds.
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
it does, under most circumstances, correlate pretty well with oxygen consumption.
In a laboratory-style setting, yes. In the field (or in someone's basement/garage), not so much.
It doesn't? Do you have a reference to support that claim?
Perhaps. Is there any scientific evidence (your anecdotal evidence doesn't count) to support that view? I mean, Dr. "power is more important than speed" is talking about using perceived effort and ignoring cadence as a race metric to judge efficiency.
Frank (can't be a scientist because I'm a physician) Day - Inventor of PowerCranks
Exercise physiologists don't DO "mechanisms" - de-tri-mental
msuguy512
Nov 3, 09 8:50
Post #24 of 69 (948 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [grosso27]
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I guess you didn't read my post
jackmott
Nov 3, 09 8:50
Post #25 of 69 (947 views)
Re: Power Question - Help me understand role of cadence.. [Frank Day]
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1. power IS speed
2. I don't see where cadence would factor into any perceivable measure of efficiency.
power at the wheel/calories burned - where does cadence mater?
power at the wheel/heart rate - where does cadence matter?
power at the wheel/oxygen consumption - where is cadence in that equation?
Did you mean heart rate?
I don't think anyone is suggesting you ignore it but its not going to tell the whole story, though maybe it would be close for a time trial
In Reply To:
Perhaps. Is there any scientific evidence (your anecdotal evidence doesn't count) to support that view? I mean, Dr. "power is more important than speed" is talking about using perceived effort and ignoring cadence as a race metric to judge efficiency.
----
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
rear wheel
disc ALWAYS
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
if poor
front wheel
whatever torodial rim wheel you want, or H3. deeper if yer faster shallower if yer slower
tires
-
http://www.biketechreview.com
has crr data, use it
frames
- position trumps aero trumps weight trumps paintjob trumps stiffness
water bottle
between your arms or not at all if its a sprint
swim
get some swim lessons, its cheaper than buying bike speed
train more and HTFU
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