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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike?

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daveinmammoth

Nov 1, 09 21:45

Post #26 of 42 (457 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I like your running sets and think they'd be a good w/o. I think people go to the track and just kill themselves trying to run too fast. I like the idea of designing sets like yours - where you run at about 40 min pace with short rest and lots of repeats. I'm going to try it once the snow melts - go to the fields and set up some cones and pretend I'm swimming instead of running....

The 2x20 has definitely taken over....

With your swim set - probably better to slow down a bit and shorten the rest. I'd swim 3 min with 20 secs rest...and do 10 :) - only the last 1-2 should be hard if you do it right.

Dave

sentania

Nov 2, 09 7:37

Post #27 of 42 (414 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you discount somebody swimming a 50 or 100 - swimmers breath pretty frequently actually.

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Devlin

Nov 2, 09 7:44

Post #28 of 42 (411 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

one huge difference is swimmers don't get to breathe as much as they want. thats go to have some physiological consequences

Really? When did they introduce that? It's only the people that can't swim all that well that have breathing difficulties. The rest of us breathe just fine.

You'd be amazed at the number of people that don't realize that it's ok to breathe out underwater while swimming, and then wonder why they get dizzy after swimming 150m.

John

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jkenny5150

Nov 2, 09 9:51

Post #29 of 42 (383 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [Nicko] [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK, I'll bite on this.
I think the set you indicated (2X1500 all out, near race pace) is a very good set. It does have a very good application to increase your speed for an Oly tri. However, the one problem with this is that 99 percent of triathletes lack the mental energy to do a set like this properly, particularly when doing it alone. It's very tough to keep yourself from fading and losing focus at 800, 1200, etc. It's much easier to hold a faster pace for 8X400 r:30. People don't want to work hard. They want to work "smart."
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MarkyV

Nov 2, 09 9:51

Post #30 of 42 (384 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [daveinmammoth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You're bang on on a lot of things with this thread. Awesome. I too have pondered some of your same thoughts. "What if" cyclists trained like swimmers? (i think, initially at least, it'd be too crazy for runners to follow suit). The whole idea of 60 on/10 off at or above vo2 watts... hmmmm hmmmm hmmmm.
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jkenny5150

Nov 2, 09 10:09

Post #31 of 42 (369 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [Nicko] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is a good example of why it's advantageous to swim both in a pool and OW. OW swimming is great for a number of different types of training: long aerobic swims, long fartleks of 5-10 minutes, random pickups (I use OW as a way to isolate a 6 beat kick without worrying about turns), simulating OW conditions (waves, drafting, currents, etc.), many other things - too many to name. Unless you have buoys spaced at exactly 100m, it would be tricky to do 10X100 on 1:20. Even with the buoys, it would be a difficult workout to monitor you effort, pace, etc. There are some workouts where the pool becomes a more conducive environment for this stuff.
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devashish_paul

Nov 2, 09 10:31

Post #32 of 42 (357 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [daveinmammoth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just to add to this, my training runs for half Ironman rarely consists of a classic "long run". Instead I run warmup to the track and then I do a set like 10x800m or 6x1600m where the pace is either half marathon race pace (so that workout out closer to 3:10), or half Ironman pace (most like 3:20-3:30). The recovery interval will be 25% the distance of the interval so 200 for 800m, or 400m for 1600. So that works out to 10K-12K at the track, plus getting there and back, for a total of 70-80 minutes. I find I get more out of this then just going out at slower than Half Ironman race pace.

If I can't get to a track, then my "half Ironman" training run will be 80 minutes with 6x6min at or faster than half Ironman race perceived exertion (the pace will be whatever it is on that day). Its actually not that taxing, but on race day, I have to string 13 of those without a break.

I just find that when you say "track" most people get this impression of going all out like you are training for the mile or 5000m, when most of us would just benefit from running at our "race pace", but broken up into many small chunks.

OK, sorry for derailing the swimming thread.

Marky, I'm not an expert on biking, but I really don't think that most people (Not talking about pros) can actually maintain a solid effort for 20 minutes unless it is on a hillclimb. I think that 8x4min harder than FTP or even 20x1 min with super short rest achieves more for many of us than grinding for 20 minutes where the effort starts fading off (which is why 1500m in the pool for most is likely less effective than 16x100, or 8x200). Alternatively you can ride in a Criterium like Steve Larsen would do. Basically fartlek for an hour, where the on and off intervals are generally short, but of unknown duration, but waaaaaay above FTP.

In the end, its about 'training load'....what can your mind and body sustain. I don't think the mind can apply enough "focus" for us to push the body to achieve optimal training load on "long intervals". Most need a race to do that.

This is also why "racing your body into shape" has always had a place in peaking for an A performance. If you look at pro cycling, that's what was classically done. You showed up in March to Paris-Nice out fo shape, shed some pounds and gradually acquired some form by the Giro, and showed up to the Tour in real race shape. At least that was the formula in the pre-Hinault days. The formula started changing some starting with the Lemond era, but even then "racing yourself into shape" is still used by Lance and the current crop...its just not a continuous string of racing like a quarter century ago.

As Fleck says, it all has its place...go fast, go easy, go long and easy, long and moderate, hard and short and then be ready to race fast and long. There's really no rocket science in this. I don't think you need to decide if 2x20 min or 20x1 min with super short rest, or 3 hour Half Ironman race pace ride, or a 6 hour easy ride is good or not. Just do everything. They all have a place.

Dev

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Mito Chondria

Nov 2, 09 13:56

Post #33 of 42 (301 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [Nicko] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You also have to keep in mind that on the bike and on the run you do all kinds of "intensity intervals" because of the terrain you are running on. All the little ups and downs are intervals to some degrees as they force you to change your power output if you try to keep your speed constant. Having used powermeters you know how hills can easily put you in a situation where you put out alot of power if you keep your speed the same. Those power spikes are intervals. In the pool on the other hand, as long as you keep pace the same you don't have that, so you change the stimuli by changing strokes, adding more intervals, changing breathing pattern, etc. And then there is also the monotony. How boring is it to swim 60min straight all out...Training camp in Karlsruhe...warm up followed by the boring one hour tests...400kick...and then another...BORING...

If you look at it from a power output point of view..20x1min with 10sec rest is not all that different from 20min straight. Sure, you go a bit more intense but the rest period are hardly enough for you to go THAT much more intense. If running were done solely on a treadmill or biking on a stationary bike it wouldn't be before too long that they would adapt sets like it is the case in swimming.

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daveinmammoth

Nov 2, 09 14:48

Post #34 of 42 (279 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Running: With adults you'd have to be super careful - but I think if you hit your paces right (not that fast) and did it on grass/dirt - it would be very good for everyone.

If I didi it - I'd want to start with middle-schoolers - or just below - kids that have run everyday already - soccer/tag/playing around at school.....and just formalize it a bit and keep it going till they hit x-country in high school. You'd start really short - train them exactly like swimmers - slowly build frequency and duration. You'd keep it fun and play a lot - avoid the steady state running that seems to be the staple of all running programs. I'd race them in the 100/200/400/800 - work on speed and technique. You could start with 30 min 3x/week in 5th grade and by the end of 8th grade have them do an hour 5x/week. They'd be used to running fast on short rest. I think they'd crush it and be fast as hell.

Now this goes against my thinking that "swimmers know how to train swimming, runners know how to train running...." so "don't reinvent the wheel", but I think it would be fun to try and see what happens. It might work really well and it might fail....If Mammoth ever starts any type of private academy for runners/skiers....maybe I can try it out :). You should come visit and train up here some time - Lieto liked it :) and it seems to work for the runners....

Dave

MarkyV

Nov 2, 09 14:59

Post #35 of 42 (273 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Marky, I'm not an expert on biking, but I really don't think that most people (Not talking about pros) can actually maintain a solid effort for 20 minutes unless it is on a hillclimb.

Hunh? if you've got a powermeter and a well developed plan this should not be an issue.

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@MarkyV
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MarkyV

Nov 2, 09 15:03

Post #36 of 42 (268 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [daveinmammoth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Re: Mammoth.... don't tempt me. :)

You know how i love the mtns. :)

the likelihood of me hanging on to those runners past WU (my threshold) is unlikely however. :)

I believe the idea of reps is what sutto uses. Also on the idea of "swimmer reps" is something i am going to use with my peeps this winter on the bike. Funny your bridge on the subject in this post between the two sports... it's something i've been pondering for around a month now. I would not extend it to running tho... too much build required to get most folks properly adapted for that.
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@MarkyV
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fulla

Nov 2, 09 15:18

Post #37 of 42 (251 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [sentania] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

If you discount somebody swimming a 50 or 100 - swimmers breath pretty frequently actually.

even many of the top 100 freestylers will breathe every 2nd stroke from towards the end of the first 50m...so they can keep their kick going.

daveinmammoth

Nov 2, 09 16:37

Post #38 of 42 (233 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The ladies probably can't run too much faster than you for short distances :). They would be the ones I'd want to run with anyway....and if you came, you could help me with my swim :).

Let me know how your experiment goes. Did you ever start selling Quarqs?

Dave

devashish_paul

Nov 2, 09 17:45

Post #39 of 42 (218 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Marky, today's run was pretty cool.

Ran in the dark after work to the local soccer field, approximately 100m long and 50 m wide. 15 minutes to get there. Once I got there, sprinted the lengths (well, not all out, just accelerate up to and a bit over 10K race pace). Jogged the widths (50m). Then I did 12x200m (1 length, 1 width, half length) and jogged back to the start point (100m) before starting the next. Pace was approximately 10K race pace. I was running under moonlight, so it was a pretty cool sensation going fast in the dark. I run on this field enough that I pretty well know by heart where the uneven ground is, so I can do it with my eyes shut. Then ran back to my office, showered up and did some more work before heading home.

Over the course of the workout, I did 3200m of 10K race pace, but with pretty well zero lactate buildup cause the intervals are so short. Great for footspeed and minimal recovery time.

I really don't think that this type of a workout is as taxing as many of you think especially if you do it on grass. Try it out some time and report back. I can almost assure you, that it soon becomes a regular part of your program. I'm not sure I'd recommend it to too many athletes over 35 who do not have a good running base, but for younger athletes, no worries. I'm 44 and I could do this type of a run daily. Just like most swimmers can do 12x50m without blinking on any given day.

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MarkyV

Nov 3, 09 7:16

Post #40 of 42 (171 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [daveinmammoth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey! No fair playing to my singleness and tail chasing as of late!

Yes... I am now listed with Mieke and Jim to sell quarqs as well as (well still need to solidify it) be representing them as an athlete next year.
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@MarkyV
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MarkyV

Nov 3, 09 7:23

Post #41 of 42 (166 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Over the course of the workout, I did 3200m of 10K race pace, but with pretty well zero lactate buildup cause the intervals are so short. Great for footspeed and minimal recovery time.
Yes... good rep work.

I really don't think that this type of a workout is as taxing as many of you think especially if you do it on grass.
This is an n=1. "you dont think" immediately removes any affirmation of it working globally without thought. You are a life long runner who, on a frequent basis, subjects yourself to higher intensity bouts (even if it be strides) and therefore are ready to do this type of workout.

Try it out some time and report back.
I've done it before. Soccer field straights "diags" and end line strides were a staple in april and may. I tried doing a few short jogs yesterday during my walk in my vibrams but the pins still hurt and jostle a lot and now i've got a really puffed up hand again. Owie.

I can almost assure you, that it soon becomes a regular part of your program. I'm not sure I'd recommend it to too many athletes over 35 who do not have a good running base, but for younger athletes, no worries.
Still much to consider. Throwing stuff willy nilly at anyone is a risk.

I'm 44 and I could do this type of a run daily. Just like most swimmers can do 12x50m without blinking on any given day.
anyone can do 12x50... it's zero g... just watch your shoulders. running and gravity change everything. I'm not in the injury creation business as a coach.

------------------------------------------------------------
MarkyV Racing & MVA Coaching
@MarkyV
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devashish_paul

Nov 3, 09 7:47

Post #42 of 42 (148 views)

Re: Raising threshold - why swim so different from run/bike? [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You're jumping the gun. No need to jump directly to 10x100m, 12x200m on grass for everyone. Start with 2x100, and add one per week on the 100's at the end of each run. Then start adding 200's 2 per week. Over 4 months, pretty well everyone should be able to do this assuming they started that 4 month period injury free.

As a bare minimum, I don't know of anyone that I've recommended this to over the last 3 years who has gotten injured by doing 10 min at the end of multiple runs per week with 20 second acceleration, 40 second cruise (so 10 repeats of 20 seconds which typically works out to ~100m for most people). Great for footspeed and form.

The problem with speedwork is that most of us get hurt when we go fast and when we are in oxygen debt...then the muscles loose their ability to apply force, absorb impact on landing and proper push off. If you are still purely aerobic, which is what happens on short repeats, almost no problems.

You're letting your personal situation influence what you perceive will and will not create injuries. If you ease into this, there should not be any issues. In fact, doing this with proper form (and most people actually run with better form when they go fast than when they shuffle for 90 min to 120 min) will carry over to all other runs, lowering the risk of injuries.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to create injuries. If you or your athletes ease in and listen to your bodies, there should be no injuries.

www.kestrelbicycles.com |www.infinitnutrition.ca | www.nineteenwetsuits.com
Free camps: Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 10/11 2010

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