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Road Bike Frames....plush racers?
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jackmott
Oct 29, 09 9:27
Post #51 of 61 (263 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher]
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that event is a good way to jumpstart your fitness too
just be sure to do the park route =)
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Actually in South Louisiana. I'm doing the MS150 from Houston to Austin in April.
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
cbright17
Oct 29, 09 10:47
Post #52 of 61 (253 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Boudreaux]
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Specialized Roubaix, Look 566, Giant Defy Advanced, and great sales on '09 Cervelo RS right now!
Boudreaux
Oct 29, 09 11:19
Post #53 of 61 (247 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cbright17]
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All sound nice, but you gotta ride something that screams for you:
http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/bik/1440711710.html
No affiliation whatsoever...just the first one I found.
"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
bvfrompc
Oct 29, 09 12:11
Post #54 of 61 (234 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Boudreaux]
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All sound nice, but you gotta ride something that screams for you:
http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/bik/1440711710.html
No affiliation whatsoever...just the first one I found.
Wow, thats hot.
triarcher
Oct 29, 09 12:30
Post #55 of 61 (232 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Boudreaux]
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I've been drooling over that bike for some time now.....it's dead sexy.
cyclenutnz
Oct 29, 09 17:35
Post #56 of 61 (207 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [tmiles]
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Here is a comparison of Addict and CR1 (and some others). As with the Tarmac-Roubaix example it all depends on how you size the bike. Blindly following the named sizes will get you very similar behaviour – M Addict and M CR1 will have same stem and handling characteristics. But if you compare S CR1 to M Addict you get a longer stem and slightly more forward weight dist – characteristics of a more “racy” setup.
So the differences come from the frame construction. Addict is lighter with stiffer fibres so will likely feel a little harsher. But you can make far more of a difference in feel with the choice of wheels (Fulcrum R1s much stiffer than Hed Ardennes as an example).
“Plush Racers” has become a key category, but the reality is that good road bike geometry falls in a fairly narrow band. Not only that but the effect of a couple of mm here or a few grams there on the bike makes very little difference to the handling compared to where you put the 70-90kg of rider.
I’ve also shown Cervelo and Look (given they’re being discussed in the thread) to see how the “relaxed” model can be setup to be as/more racy. Granted, in the sizes shown the RS and 566 both have very slack HTA (and big trail for the Look) which should be significant enough to have a bearing on how the bike handles (slower). If I moved the comparison to being L-M rather than M-S we wouldn’t have the Front centre issue that is confusing this comparison.
Bear in mind that the good brands are choosing a geometry then designing the layup to achieve a certain level of stiffness. If you have equal HT and BB stiffness then the real effect of minor changes in angles will be very muted (but if I told you that one was “relaxed” you would be sure to feel a difference).
There are very few stock carbon bikes that are designed with really racy geometry. I’ve shown an example of what cwould be a “racing” geometry for that M Addict rider – 30mm less wheelbase, slightly more forward WD. But slightly longer HT to keep it all stiff (and to look pro which is what people really mean by racy).
Don’t mistake long HT for plush – it can just mean longer stem and fewer spacers. Or that a bike being marketed as recreational means that it can’t be raced.
So start by working out what your position should be. Then look at the frames that fill in the dots (your contact points) nicely. If you think that you will be moving the bars down in the future don’t go for a bike with no spacers – 20mm under a -6 stem gives you 4cm of room if you go to a -17 sitting on the top cap.
As always with bike purchasing – evaluate what is there, rather than what the marketing or shop muppet says is there.
tmiles
Oct 29, 09 17:59
Post #57 of 61 (201 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz]
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Thank you for taking the time to line that all out. We have a shop in town with several bikes that I could see myself riding. I know that several folks have mentioned that the difference between the "twitchy" geometry and the "plush" geometry is neglegible(at least to a rider of my caliber), but seeing the numbers helps me.
triarcher
Oct 29, 09 20:00
Post #58 of 61 (194 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz]
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That was extremely helpful! Im a numbers kinda guy. This puts everything into focus for me. Your descriptions really brought it home.
Boudreaux
Oct 30, 09 3:39
Post #59 of 61 (167 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz]
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Nutnz - while your analysis and chart are very good, I hesitate to use terms such as "racy, slower and plush"...
A somewhat more relaxed geometry is not inherently "slower" in any sense of the word - indeed, a more racy "twitch" setup may be less fast for most folks. (You do mention setup here; which is important).
Just for grins, I'll use a personal example: Tarmac Pro vs. Colnago C40, each set up with almost the exact numbers. The Tarmac, while a good bike, was never comfortable to me over the long run. It handled quickly, but was nervous compared to the Colnago. I can hop on the Colnago and ride hard all day - and enjoy every minute of it.
Not once has it ever crossed my mind that the Colnago is less of a "race" bike...in fact, it is arguably more of a "race" bike.
I'm stronger because of it.
"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
cyclenutnz
Oct 30, 09 12:51
Post #60 of 61 (133 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Boudreaux]
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That is entirely the point I'm making - that the characterisations are fairly meaningless when we're talking differences of a couple of mm or a few points of a degree.
Having said that - I've felt more at home on well executed steep angled bikes than I have on some slacker but less well done bikes.
Just having a slacker HTA doesn't on its own make a bike more stable.
The Colnago CT1 I had handled beautifully, but not a race bike at all - felt like all the power went sideways when I stomped on it. But that was a frame design fault, not geometry
triarcher
Oct 30, 09 13:05
Post #61 of 61 (128 views)
Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz]
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That is entirely the point I'm making - that the characterisations are fairly meaningless when we're talking differences of a couple of mm or a few points of a degree.
Having said that - I've felt more at home on
well executed steep angled bikes than I have on some slacker but less well done bikes.
Just having a slacker HTA doesn't on its own make a bike more stable.
The Colnago CT1 I had handled beautifully, but not a race bike at all - felt like all the power went sideways when I stomped on it. But that was a frame design fault, not geometry
What other factors do you find contribute to steep angled bikes being well executed and slacker bikes less so? What would have made the slacker bikes "better"
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