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Road Bike Frames....plush racers?

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triarcher

Oct 27, 09 12:31

Post #1 of 61 (1355 views)

Road Bike Frames....plush racers?	Can't Post

Is this even possible? This category of bike is perplexing and goes against what I know about road bikes. Please set me straight because I need a bike that can do everything. I'm not a person that can really afford two bikes and if I can only have one then I want a damn good one. I have a tri bike that is a little big (55cm) but I got for a stupid low price and I'm planning on selling it to get a proper fitting road rig that I can do long training rides, tris, benefit rides and possibly some road races. Of course most of my time on this bike will be training and I live in a flat area. I'm looking hard at the LOOK 566 Rival. It has received glowing reviews but the only issue I have is this.....I don't want to buy another bike in a few years.......as I get stronger/faster/better will I regret getting a bike like this (taller head) instead of a more racey geometry? I will only have one shot at this so I want to make as close to the right choice as possible. This geometry seems like a logical fit but how it relates to tangible benefits is slipping me. Any help or ridicule is welcome.

(This post was edited by triarcher on Oct 27, 09 12:35)

de-tri-mental

Oct 27, 09 12:41

Post #2 of 61 (1331 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow,
you sound confused.

First off, there is no bike that can do all things equally well. Period.

Good for you that you still get stronger/faster/better (I am right now looking hard at touring bikes... all the signs of getting weaker/slower/worse).

And SURE, you won't be buying another bike in a year...not!

I see that I am the wrong person to reply to your post, but want to commetn that if you are an American you should at least be patriotic and don't buy French!
___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Boudreaux

Oct 27, 09 12:51

Post #3 of 61 (1303 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Two bikes which will always be better than you are; and the used market is depressed on both:

Cervelo R3 or the RS
Colnago C50

I'd buy a C50 from a Sunday rider and never look back.

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09

cyclenutnz

Oct 27, 09 12:55

Post #4 of 61 (1293 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tall head tube does not mean anything with regard to "racy geometry" - it's a fitting element not a handling one (though if you have a short HT and massive spacer stack it becomes a handling issue).
The angles of the 566 are nicely balanced - intended as an all day bike. If you get sized up and have the stem right down on the HT then buy the smaller size so you have room to move if you think that is likely. But remember there is a lot that can be achieved with stem angle too.
You might one day think you had outgrown it but there would be no detriment to your speed.

de-tri-mental - you needn't worry, the 566 is taiwanese.

jyeager

Oct 27, 09 13:02

Post #5 of 61 (1277 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think I know exactly what you are getting at.

The truth is that how fast you can ride a bike in a race has nothing to do with how steep the head tube is, how short the wheelbase is, or how harsh the ride is (all features we equate with 'racing' bikes).
You can get a bike thats design elements give it a predictable ride so you aren't twitching all over the road when you reach for your water bottle and that's pretty compliant on the road and you can still move this bike down the road quickly.

As far as being 'racey' vs. 'comfortable' that's why road bikes have drop bars. It gives you 2 positions. You can ride more upright on the tops when touring or spending a long day in the saddle and you can use the drops when feeling like hammering or when racing.
And for that matter you can keep a 2nd $30 stem around to add even more adjustability between the 2 purposes (or just turn your stem around).

I would suggest a nice carbon frame designed more along the lines of the hobbyist rider. I think Trek's bikes might fit the bill. Consider a Trek Madone bike or frame from ebay.

triarcher

Oct 27, 09 13:10

Post #6 of 61 (1267 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's a nice way to put it. So you are basically saying that if I wanted a more aggressive position out of this type of frame that it's possible if I'm careful with the sizing.

Tri Slow Poke

Oct 27, 09 13:16

Post #7 of 61 (1245 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Based on what I've read, I would givethe 566 a HARD look if I were in the market!

Did you not know that in a race all runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
- 1 Corinthians 9:24

Cannonball

Oct 27, 09 13:47

Post #8 of 61 (1208 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'd give something like this a good hard look if I were you. It looks pretty plush, kind of racey too, not so sure about taller head but maybe if you asked nicely. The geometry is definitely a logical fit and has apparent tangible benefits, you'd probably get more than one shot at it as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today is the second day of the rest of your life if you started keeping track yesterday

triarcher

Oct 27, 09 14:17

Post #9 of 61 (1171 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Cannonball] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's awesome!

de-tri-mental

Oct 27, 09 14:36

Post #10 of 61 (1142 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry for my lashing out, so to stay on topic:

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/...w-look-566-road.html

Hope that didn't steer you towards the bike, though.
___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

cyclenutnz

Oct 27, 09 14:48

Post #11 of 61 (1122 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here's some burble I wrote earlier this year for someone else about the Roubaix vs Tarmac, it should cast some light on your current dilemma.

Comparing the 54 Tarmac to the 52 Roubaix we have a 5mm shorter stem with 2mm fewer spacers (which you wouldn't bother with in RL). So essentially they fit the same. The Roubaix has an 11mm longer wheelbase, but the WD is close enough that no one would know the difference. Both have trail in the right region though the slacker setup of the Roubaix wouldn't require as much attention as the Tarmac.

So is there a real difference in these bikes? If I were reviewing for a magazine then I would know that the Roubaix is oriented at a more recreational rider and that would likely colour my impression of the bike. So I would say that the longer wheelbase combined with the slightly lower BB (=lower centre of gravity) meant that the Roubaix really carved through fast downhills. I also would be comparing to a 52 Tarmac which makes the Roubaix look a lot less aggressive - much taller HT, much longer WB etc - but that's not valid as they (the 52's) don't fit the same (having said that - same stem length with 23mm spacers isn't all that different - it's just that the 54 is much closer).

Given that the Roubaix now shares the tapered steerer and other design features of the Tarmac I would be surprised if a true blind test (always dangerous with bicycles) could detect meaningful differences. Spec may have tweaked the layup of the Tarmac to be a little harsher but really it's just the steeper HTA that distinguishes them.

The Tarmac was originally built with much racier geometry. It was descended from the Allez line which was a real USA Crit bike - steep HTA, short wheelbase etc. Then one day Serotta said to Spec - this is how you build a bike that people will want - and so the Roubaix was born (this would be one of Serottas biggest mistakes, along with dropping the CSi from the range). The Roubaix was a hit and put Specialized on the map with road bikes, so more people started looking at the Tarmac as Spec became a brand you could be seen on. And so it was discovered that very few could ride the Tarmac as it was. So last year they lifted the HTs and went for a more traditional road geometry. Of course then the Pros got snotty and so this year there is also the Pro version with the old HT lengths.

triarcher

Oct 27, 09 15:11

Post #12 of 61 (1098 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Interesting...Thanks for posting that. Makes the frame classifications seem more like marketing. Comparing pure numbers puts it into light for me thanks!!

Dave in Canada

Oct 27, 09 16:26

Post #13 of 61 (1048 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can't say enough about my Cervelo RS. It is an amazing machine, the comfort is only surpassed by the handling. When I am riding it I never have issues with the handling. In fact I sort of forget that it is a "plush" bike. When I am done riding I realize just how plush it is as I feel great post ride.

As I move on to some more serious training over the next year I know I will see gains as a result of the 'plush' benefits allowing me to workout harder the day after a long ride and even to add a second long ride to big weekends.

Dave

Boudreaux

Oct 28, 09 3:38

Post #14 of 61 (969 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Dave in Canada] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

BINGO! And I'll betchya that you never get off thinking "gee, I sure wish this bike was faster, (stiffer, deeper, more twitchy, etc).

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09

JoeO

Oct 28, 09 8:01

Post #15 of 61 (870 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The rake looks pretty different between the Roubaix and the Tarmac. That would have a lot to do with the stability too, wouldn't it?

triarcher

Oct 28, 09 8:17

Post #16 of 61 (852 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Dave in Canada] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The RS is A little out of my price range. I'm setting a cap at 2500.00

tmiles

Oct 28, 09 8:38

Post #17 of 61 (841 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cyclenutnz] [In reply to]	Can't Post

So when I read reviews that the Scott CR1 has become more "plush", and the Addict is their twitchy racer - you are saying that as an average rider I probably will not be able to tell much of a difference? I ride a P3, and have never owned a road bike, but am considering getting a road bike and potentially participating in Crits.

With no experience as to what "twitchy" is - - I am wondering if I would enjoy the Addict for century rides, etc....? I am inclined to want to get the racier machine, knowing full well that I am not a suitable engine at this point, but am looking to improve.

thoughts?

thanks

cdw

Oct 28, 09 9:35

Post #18 of 61 (801 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll reiterate this just in case the others have not made the point. No bike can do everything well. A good road bike will be good for recovery rides, longer rides and group rides. A properly designed tri bike will allow you to achieve a good, aerodynamic position and be stable when riding on the aerobars.

Plush is a function of your seat and tires. Put some 28c tires on your bike with latex tubes and add a neoprene seat cover and you have plush.

What tri bike do you have now? Bike sizing is silly. I've ridden from a 51 to a 58.

Chad

Boudreaux

Oct 28, 09 9:43

Post #19 of 61 (795 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [tmiles] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Get a bike upon which you can spend hours. Get hard. Get good. Learn to ride.

When, and if you want to race, it will serve you well. When you get good enough that a bike will make a difference, you'll know it - and you'll know which bike you need.

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09

triarcher

Oct 28, 09 10:35

Post #20 of 61 (746 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cdw] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I understand the difference in tri vs road....My tri bike is an 05 55cm Quintana Roo Kilo. It's touch on the big side, I feel like I want to get more forward and lower but I'm maxed out with current seat post. But that's not why I want a road bike as a do everything bike. If I can only have one bike I want it to be comfy for my everyday training but still agressive enough to race tri's and possible road races. I'm not going to own multiple wheelsets or change tubes and tires everytime I'm gonna do a different type of ride. I was just asking if these Plush racers are what they say they are....and why. And honestly I think road bikes are are not just good for recovery rides, longer rides or group rides. I get routinely smoked by road bikes without aero gear so sorry I don't buy that. My goal is to put in the work to get faster which is riding ALOT, riding alot on my tri bike is not a fun thing for me right now.

triarcher

Oct 28, 09 10:36

Post #21 of 61 (745 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [Boudreaux] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's da plan Boudreaux ;)

cdw

Oct 28, 09 10:59

Post #22 of 61 (738 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

And honestly I think road bikes are are not just good for recovery rides, longer rides or group rides. I get routinely smoked by road bikes without aero gear so sorry I don't buy that.

So what is it that you are not buying? A road bike will offer you an upright position that can be ridden all day, but going to an aero position will mean aerobars, different handling, lower head tube and likely a steeper seat tube angle to rotate your whole body forward over the aerobars. Just because people pass you on road bikes doesn't mean that you won't be faster when properly positioned on a tri bike. I could ride my road bike without aerobars in a tri and still beat 90 percent of the other racers, but the tri bike gets me the other 4-8 percent. So yes, if fitness is your limiter right now then it doesn't matter if you ride a road bike, but once fitness is not, or it is as good as you have time to make it, then it comes back to proper positioning and equipment.

A QR Kilo has either a 76 or 78 degree seat tube. If you have a Kilo then it is not your bike that is holding you back. Personally, I like about a 50/50 mix of road/tri bike because my tri position is very aero but sacrifices any sort of comfort to get there.
Chad

triarcher

Oct 28, 09 11:17

Post #23 of 61 (726 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cdw] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not buying that road bikes are only good for recovery rides, longer rides or group rides. I never said my bike is holding me back, I said strength is and I plan on putting alot of miles in this winter. What will hold me back from getting where I want will be a sore back from my tri bike after putting in the miles I have planned. My Kilo has a 78deg seat tube. And yes, that is exactly what I was saying....My fitness is my limiter. There is no arguing that, my original question was if these "plush" racers will allow me to comfortably train but still be racey enough for triathlons and possible crits.

cdw

Oct 28, 09 11:39

Post #24 of 61 (708 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [triarcher] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There is no arguing that, my original question was if these "plush" racers will allow me to comfortably train but still be racey enough for triathlons and possible crits.

Well then the question is a little vague. How racey is racey enough? Can you put a set of aero wheels and shorty aero bars on a road bike and go fast in a tri. Sure. Will you be FASTER on a tri bike with correct positioning. Yes.
However, if your back is sore from your tri bike then that is a position problem, not a road vs. tri bike problem. A sore neck and more pressure on your tender parts are the cost of a fast aero positon. A sore back is not. A too-large frame does not cause a sore back either.
Chad

triarcher

Oct 28, 09 12:11

Post #25 of 61 (692 views)

Re: Road Bike Frames....plush racers? [cdw] [In reply to]	Can't Post

But I have a bad back from a weak back :) I'm sorry I don't get a sore back from my tri bike. I was just using it as an example. I'm slow ok, and I don't want to be slow. My fitness needs to improve and to get where I want I have to put alot of miles in. We all train more than we race so for someone like me, who can only really have one bike, it makes more sense to me to have a road bike that I can ride for hours that is still raceable. The alternative for me right now is to keep pounding on the tri bike which is not the most comfortable thing to spend hours on eveyday. I've already made up my mind...I'm selling the Kilo and getting a road bike....In my research I've come across these plush racers and they look great on paper.....but with my previous (limited) knowlege of road bike geometry I've only known tourers and racers. When it's time I will have another tri bike but I have a long way to go. I got this Kilo for a super deal and could not pass it up. Otherwise I was going to get a entry level road bike. I completed my first ever season on it and I learned alot about what I need to work on....right now it's not aero anything.

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