Bike Shops
Coaches
Fitters
Race Calendar
*NEW* Running Stores
Stack & Reach
Training Log
Triathlon Clubs
MAIN
INDEX
RULES &
LEGEND
LOG
IN
Search
this forum
this category
all forums
for
All words
Any words
Whole Phrase
(
options
)
Newsletter Signup
Slowtwitch Forums
:
Triathlon Forum
:
Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire!
Tri Forum
Classifieds
Lavender Room
Jobs
The Womens
Print Thread
VegasTrilete
Oct 30, 09 9:37
Post #1 of 24 (1730 views)
Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire!
Can't Post
Like many here, I have been dissapointed in not making any progress in my swimming. In fact, my times indicated I was regressing. I am late in a taper so all I was trying to do the past couple of weeks was to just get things cleaned up a bit. It has been said that getting some good on-deck coaching is ideal. I will do that next year for sure. Put in the time, both in the water plus the study of good swimming.
I have been reading much of Doug Stern's posts, RIP. Now he was a coach. One just can not find even one post of his that was ever disparaging towards others. Even when people would "call him out". Always positive and instructive.
A couple things recently helped me out. He stated that volume does not cause shoulder pain, but improper technique. Well my left shoulder was progressively worsening as the volume took its toll. Also, in one post a couple years old, even Rappstar admitted to suffering from what he called "cross-overitis". Bingo!
Read some material again from Cecil Colwin. He wrote that after the entry, one should enter in line with the shoulder then extend diagonally out away from centerline, then start the wrap and pull. Watched many of the best swimmers on the teams that train at the pool I swim at. And thats what they all do.
This week have been swimming frequent, but short. 2000 scy a day. Have seen a great improvement. And the left shoulder is much improved. But the indicator is whether the times are improving with no additional effort, but merely with technique improvement. It feels that I have increased my reach and improved the roll. Plus I am not in much hurry to start the pull but am controlling the hand and forearm angles much better.
Yesterday finished my 2000 with a 1000 pull. No paddles but just with a pull buoy and innertube around the knees. Swam a 15 flat at what felt like an E2 effort. The first 500 in 7:33 then a negative split. Comparred to the fish, that is very slow, but for me it felt like I had discovered fire.
docfuel
Oct 30, 09 9:49
Post #2 of 24 (1695 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I, too, am prone to crossover-itis. I have been doing the same- feeling as if I'm reaching outwardly. This seems to improve my catch, enhance the first part of my pull, and help connect my hip & shoulder rotation to the pull. Now I feel that, if I can connect my kick to all of this....?
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
monty
Oct 30, 09 9:56
Post #3 of 24 (1672 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
That is usually how it works in swimming. You read or are told to do this or that, and you think you are doing it, or at least trying, and then one day it is Eureka!!! That is why it is so important to be able to watch yourself on video. What you may think is a wide pull, is still actually a crossover stroke. I see that all the time with folks that I work with. I usually have to tell them 5 or 6 times to keep widening the stroke, until they feel like they are a crab in the water. It's just that when you do something so wrong, for so long, and your brain thinks it was right, it takes awhile to reporgram it. I even still get those ahh ha moments in the water, from some long ago thing an old coach had told me.
It's good that you figured it out in your taper, but now you will have to forcefully continue it during the race. The brain does not like to work much on raceday, so you really have to kick it in the pants to overide all that earlier programming...Good luck....
tigerchik
Oct 30, 09 13:10
Post #4 of 24 (1473 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Good work, Caveman!
_____________
mmm, pi!
Boudreaux
Oct 30, 09 13:57
Post #5 of 24 (1391 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Read some material again from Cecil Colwin. He wrote that after the entry, one should enter in line with the shoulder then extend diagonally out away from centerline, then start the wrap and pull.
given this thought, do we still want the thumb to brush the thigh just prior to exiting the water (actually, sitting here at the desk, I don't know whether I brush my thigh or not...just remember 25 years ago...so I'll bet I do)
"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
bmanners
Oct 30, 09 14:08
Post #6 of 24 (1373 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
You move your arms when you swim ? Does that not create drag ? I keep my arms down by my side and just wiggle my shoulders in the direction I want to go.
VegasTrilete
Oct 30, 09 14:35
Post #7 of 24 (1331 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Your question is best answered by the coaches and swimmers, for I am of all, the least qualified. I am merely grateful to have improved my feel for the water it seems in a more than incremental step. But as Doug Stern wrote, "swimming is a life-long pursuit". And this pursuit will hopefully continue to progress, step by step.
Boudreaux
Oct 30, 09 14:41
Post #8 of 24 (1313 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [bmanners]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To:
You move your arms when you swim ? Does that not create drag ? I keep my arms down by my side and just wiggle my shoulders in the direction I want to go.
Are you trying to be an asshole...or do your smart assed comments just make you seem like one.
Jerk.
"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
lightheir
Oct 30, 09 14:56
Post #9 of 24 (1287 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [monty]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I had a question about this wider reach, though -
I notice that there's a big pocket between your arm and your neck when you reach away from the head. I've been trying to eliminate that by reaching straight ahead while pressing my bicep to my cheek on the forward reach, while taking care not to cross the centerline.
What is your opinion on this "pocket" between the arm-neck on the wider reach? Or am I doing it wrong?
craig taylor
Oct 30, 09 14:58
Post #10 of 24 (1280 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
at the risk of starting a swim technique debate....
..most world class distance freestyle swimmers tend not to scull outwards at the beginning of the catch - which is counter to what the OP says, if I'm reading his post correctly.
Similarly, there has been a trend towards less emphasis on 'finishing the stroke' to full extension (or the associated 'thumb brushing thigh' emphasis).
Those trends aren't universal, and there are certainly a number of coaches who are still teaching outward scull at initiation of the catch, and finishing each stroke with full extension....but if you spend some time on youtube or floswimming, you'll see that those two components of the stroke are absent when you look at most elite swimmers, and not emphasized (or sometimes discouraged) in many programs.
furiousferret
Oct 30, 09 15:04
Post #11 of 24 (1270 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Grats on the improvement....I think you hit it head on when you said its better to do a few 2k swims a weeks than 1 or 2 really big swims a week.
Boudreaux
Oct 30, 09 15:13
Post #12 of 24 (1256 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [craig taylor]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Thank you Craig; that answers my question.
I'd been thinking about altering my entry a bit and seeing what a somewhat more outboard entry/scull would do over time, but was questioning the line of the pull at the end of the stroke.
"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
monty
Oct 30, 09 15:25
Post #13 of 24 (1237 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Craig is right in that in world class swimmers, there is not as much emphasis on the sweep anymore..BUT.. You are presumably not world class, and perhaps that motion is setting up your stroke to have a better high elbow pull. It is obvious that it did something positive, so I would not worry too much about what world class guys do at that point. I think what is happening is that you are getting a better catch by doing a little skull, and thus moving a larger volume of water. World class guys are catching that water much sooner, and with less air turbulance than the rest of us, so some of them can get away with a quicker catch phase. I say stick with what you are doing for now, and really try and feel the volume of water you are moving. Keep the elbow high in the pull, and dont force the speed of the stroke to where you start to slip off the water. You will notice in the pool that you will take fewer strokes while doing the same speed or faster if done properly....
craig taylor
Oct 30, 09 15:49
Post #14 of 24 (1198 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [monty]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
The OP has a race coming up, i'm not sure if Boudreaux is racing soon, or not. We definitely agree that further monkeying with the stroke close to a race is not a great idea - but if someone is done racing for the year, it's not a bad time to modify things.
Also agreed that just because world class swimmers do something, it isn't always a good idea for novice or age group swimmers. Personally, I think that applies much more to the concept of high elbow or early vertical forearm swimming than other concepts - that's a tough skill to teach, or to learn. I think a cleaner initiation of the catch (ie. little or no scull) and an emphasis on 'front quadrant' swimming (rather than finishing the stroke) are probably easier for most people to achieve than other aspects of world class swim mechanics....and there certainly isn't only one version of world class mechanics.
But diagnosing or fixing a swim stroke via internet is really tough, even with video, and it's hard to go wrong with your advice.
phog
Oct 30, 09 17:55
Post #15 of 24 (1107 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You move your arms when you swim ? Does that not create drag ? I keep my arms down by my side and just wiggle my shoulders in the direction I want to go.
Are you trying to be an asshole...or do your smart assed comments just make you seem like one.
Jerk.
Someone just doesn't know when their leg is being pulled. Just how far did you try to swim before you caught on.
I'll bet Finman can do it!
bmanners
Oct 30, 09 19:55
Post #16 of 24 (1019 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [Boudreaux]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
You move your arms when you swim ? Does that not create drag ? I keep my arms down by my side and just wiggle my shoulders in the direction I want to go.
Are you trying to be an asshole...or do your smart assed comments just make you seem like one.
Jerk.
Wound up a little tight are we not ?
lhogben
Oct 30, 09 20:23
Post #17 of 24 (983 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
One of the best cure for crossoveritis is surfing! The board forces you to not cross over. Only problem is I swim like I have a surfboard underneath me at times.
olddude
Oct 30, 09 20:56
Post #18 of 24 (960 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Congrats on finding a more comfortable stroke even though as said just before a big race.
The coaches I've had emphasize entry shoulder width or just wider and a straight pull
keeping the elbow high and bending perhaps half way through the pull stopping at the hip
continued pull past the hip is wasted energy because you are pushing up on the water and
forcing your lower body lower in the water and doesn't contribute to forward motion. With the shoulder width or just wider entry
you hit cleaner water than under your body. With the straight pull must take care not to
pull too deep and thats where the bent elbow occurs approx half way through the pull.
Go to youtube and search Michael Phelps and watch his arm movement. I'm no world class
swimmer but this has helped my swimming to the point I'm usually one of the top 5 out of
the water in my AG if not #1
Just my humble offering
VegasTrilete
Oct 30, 09 22:53
Post #19 of 24 (908 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [olddude]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Thanks, to you and all! Hope to do the best I can. In that phase 2 of the taper, so am not feeling exactly race sharp. Mysterious twinges have occurred, but that is to be expected. No need to panic but since am inside the 10 day window, all I have to do is to rejuvinate. Helps to know the swim will be a more efficient an effort to set up the bike, to set up the run.
VegasTrilete
Nov 9, 09 16:45
Post #20 of 24 (683 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [monty]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To:
That is usually how it works in swimming. You read or are told to do this or that, and you think you are doing it, or at least trying, and then one day it is Eureka!!! That is why it is so important to be able to watch yourself on video. What you may think is a wide pull, is still actually a crossover stroke. I see that all the time with folks that I work with. I usually have to tell them 5 or 6 times to keep widening the stroke, until they feel like they are a crab in the water. It's just that when you do something so wrong, for so long, and your brain thinks it was right, it takes awhile to reporgram it. I even still get those ahh ha moments in the water, from some long ago thing an old coach had told me.
It's good that you figured it out in your taper, but now you will have to forcefully continue it during the race. The brain does not like to work much on raceday, so you really have to kick it in the pants to overide all that earlier programming...Good luck....
Monty......did exactly what you told me in the race yesterday. Swam agressively and always kept thinking of technique. It probably helped also, because of a bad knee, I swam every day this past race week (except the day before the race), including 3 times in the wetsuit at Lake Mead. Reprogramming as you rightly call it.
Was able to hold a good postion behind a pack after the turnaround and was absolutely shocked to see 1:01 on the watch as I hit the ramp. This for me is a breakthrough and I know that with some coaching and better swim training, more flaws corrected and improved performance is achievable.
Much thanks
Conrad
daveinmammoth
Nov 10, 09 13:59
Post #21 of 24 (489 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Some people (OP I think) are talking about the entry/extension under water before the catch and some are talking about the catch/start of pull....
For entry at shoulder line - agree.
For extension - I think the hand should stay in line with the shoulder and that the shoulder should roll more midline as you extend so the hand should move more midline if anything. I disgaree with the "extend diagonally out away from centerline". If you have a history of swining wide on recover then entering diagonally across midline like many do, then you may feel like you are moving out when you correct when in fact you are staying in-line with the shoulder.....(hope you can follow that).
For the catch/pull - I like straight back along mid-line. I did watch some Thorpe video that looked like his catch included a sweep inward toward midline (very different than the initial outward sweep many of us were taught years ago...).
For the end of the stroke - some of us were taught to finish strong/brush the thigh/fling water up....all of which seems to be the opposite of current teaching. I do think you want to keep the pull going toward the back end of the stroke but you need to keep your hand vertical by extending your wrist (you don't want to push water up at the end). Its hard to find info on the back half of the pull, though.....
Dave
dougnut
Nov 10, 09 14:30
Post #22 of 24 (450 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [daveinmammoth]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I came across this video while reading Matt Fitzgerald's blog (while it was active)...was my "Eureka" video as far as high elbow and pull...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3ctBUV08_o
VegasTrilete
Nov 11, 09 10:22
Post #23 of 24 (300 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [daveinmammoth]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Dave
Good tips. However the change I made, it did seem to cure my crossover, probably my worst "flaw" I had. And worse on the left. That's the side where I broke the collarbone years ago. The left shoulder would get sore with volume, probably because it crossed over the most causing a dropped elbow and undue stress on that shoulder.
The final swim training and the swim itself in the race, I had no pain. And that extension away is probably not as dramatic as it sounds. Probably just enough not to crossover as the rotation into the wrap and pull begins. Part of the extension I changed into was to set up an ulnar-flexion of the wrist for the inward sweep.
The pool times I did going in showed a great improvement. Whatever times I do in a short course pool, seem to equate to a wetsuit swim, and they indicated a 63. Because I got behind a perfect pack with spot on navigation and calm sea conditions, well that gave me the 61.
I am now very enthused about my swimming. I know I can improve more. The season is now over. Just over 10 months of structured training. Now, NO nothing for two weeks. And no running at all for 6 weeks. Hiking yes. But the first thing I'll do after two weeks is easy swimming. Probably 90% drills. The focus will be high elbow recovery, particularly on the left, the "low-flying wing".
On a side note. This down time is also the time I take to become bike mechanic. All my bikes get cleaned and overhauled as necessary and then put away. The wet suit gets cleaned and any of those small tears repaired and it too gets stored away for next year. These things and many of the other neglected things of life are addressed. But as far as bike mechanic, yesterday I came across a bike on Craig's List. It won't be for me but for my older brother in town here who is not a competive athlete but rather a life-long fitness advocate. He runs, and rides a mountain bike but has no road bike, which I have always encouraged him to get. And the bike I found for him, a Peugot Super Vitus 980 Triathlon race bike. Circa I believe 1989. The paint and chrome almost perfect. Had barely seen the road. One of those transitional bikes between the era's, 700s with a 6 speed freewheel. So I'll completely overhaul it, upgrade to a 7 speed, and he'll have a 20 pound vintage road race bike.
Conrad
daveinmammoth
Nov 11, 09 10:45
Post #24 of 24 (281 views)
Re: Swim flaw found......or the discovery of fire! [VegasTrilete]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
All very nice and I hope you enjoy your break. I missed Silverman this year and was very sad about it (back issues).
Re: shoulders. I have not heard anything about cross-over = shoulder issues. I've heard about an internally rotated shoulder on recover with thumb down = bad, internally rotated shoulder on entry (thumb 1st) = bad, and from other sports (skate skiing) - I've heard a wider hand on the push phase with the polls = ? wider pull in swim? = bad. I'd think a wider extension after entry would also stress the shoulder more (but again my guess is your "wider extension" is actually just in-line and feels wide vs. cross-over.) I'd think a more extended elbow on the pull would = more stress on the shoulder. I really haven't looked that much into it though....
Good luck with your continued swim progression - sounds like you are on track.
Dave
Print Thread
Are equipment rules important?
What organization's rules do you seek to comply with before you purchase bikes, wetsuits, etc.?
UCI
USA Cycling
UCI/USAC
WTC
USAT
WTC/USAT
ITU
All
None
MAIN
RULES &
LOG
