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Triathlon Forum
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The downside of horizontal dropouts
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hgrong
Jul 2, 09 20:10
Post #1 of 28 (872 views)
The downside of horizontal dropouts
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Swapped wheels between my road and tri bikes last night. Didn't think much about it.
About ten miles into my ride today on the tri bike I had to hit the brakes to avoid a car. All of a sudden I hear a loud clunk and my back end starts to fishtail. Luckily I was in a place where I could immediately pull over and figure out what the hell was going on. I hop off, look at my rear wheel, and notice that the wheel had come out of the dropouts. The cassette was still connected to the chain, but the skewer was about two inches behind the dropouts and the brake arm was resting one the tire, holding the frame up and keeping the derailure from smacking into the pavement.
Obviously, I must not have tightened the quick release as much as I should have last night. It scared the crap out of me. Needless to say, the QR is now about as tight as I can get it. But I spent the rest of the ride nervous that I was going to 'ride out' of the dropouts again.
So, just as a public service announcement, make sure your QRs are tight! Bikes handle better when the frame is firmly connected to the wheels.
Biff Carbon
Jul 2, 09 20:20
Post #2 of 28 (862 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [hgrong]
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Just went from vertical dropouts to horizontal. Based on rear wheel swaps, I kinda miss the verticals. Also have seen set screws in the horizontals get bent if the wheel is not sitting properly before the skewer is tightened. And then, there's your situation....
Between "lawyer tabs" and verts in the back, your skewer can go belly up and you're still okay. Have to be a bit more vigilant with horizontal dropouts.
"Nevermind the blood. Hows my bike?..."
Tai
Jul 2, 09 20:41
Post #3 of 28 (837 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [hgrong]
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gotta love how hitting brakes combined with the contact patch of the tire creates a perfect scenario to cause the tire to try to rotate around the braking point, thus rotating right out of the rear drop outs. Happened to me once too, my GF as well. Tighten those babies down!!! Or better yet get a BB mounted brake as it changes the whole scenario and the wheel wants to rotate up, versus up AND back.
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shumphries
Jul 2, 09 21:07
Post #4 of 28 (815 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [hgrong]
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Had almost the same thing happen when I hit the brakes once stupidly after my rear tire flatted suddenly. Back wheel came right out and back end of bike fishtailed. It is a bummer to be looking straight ahead and see your rear wheel come sliding around into your vision. I pay much more attention to making sure it's on tight now.
(This post was
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Bum
Jul 2, 09 22:28
Post #5 of 28 (741 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [shumphries]
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Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike.
gabbiev
Jul 3, 09 6:30
Post #6 of 28 (654 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Bum]
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Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike.
Why? They allow considerable flexibility in wheel placement. Practice a little, and rear wheel changes are no harder or slower than with vertical dropouts; use a good quick release and your wheel won't slip. Vertical dropouts at best represen a design compromise.
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 7:19
Post #7 of 28 (611 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Bum]
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they aren't there for safety or convenience
they are there to go faster =)
In Reply To:
Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike.
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
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Cheap Disc Wheel -
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Tire Crr Data -
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Tiki
Jul 3, 09 7:25
Post #8 of 28 (600 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [gabbiev]
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In Reply To:
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Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike.
Why? They allow considerable flexibility in wheel placement. Practice a little, and rear wheel changes are no harder or slower than with vertical dropouts
Taken a look at the wrenching abilities of today's typical triathlete? I'm thinking "flexibility in wheel placement" isn't really a big concern, since the sport's newbies just ride their race rig to work every day.
Horizontal dropouts, like aero seatposts, won't be around much longer below the VERY pointy end of manufacturer's product lines. They make no sense for 99% of riders, including the vast majority of today's tri'athlete'.
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"I will endure rain, cold, lack of showers and all discomfort until the finish. I will fix any mistakes, do whatever it takes and continue to the end." Lee "Fuzzy" Mitchell
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 7:36
Post #9 of 28 (581 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Tiki]
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I'll take that bet!
In Reply To:
Horizontal dropouts, like aero seatposts, won't be around much longer below the VERY pointy end of manufacturer's product lines. They make no sense for 99% of riders, including the vast majority of today's tri'athlete'.
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
Tiki
Jul 3, 09 7:46
Post #10 of 28 (571 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [jackmott]
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I'll take that bet!
You're already seeing signs that manufacturers are tired of dealing with their seatpost issues. It's only a matter of time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I will endure rain, cold, lack of showers and all discomfort until the finish. I will fix any mistakes, do whatever it takes and continue to the end." Lee "Fuzzy" Mitchell
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 7:48
Post #11 of 28 (568 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Tiki]
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doesn't matter
consumers will still want aero seatposts on mid level bikes
if only because a round tube sticking out of an aero frame looks ugly.
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I'll take that bet!
You're already seeing signs that manufacturers are tired of dealing with their seatpost issues. It's only a matter of time.
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
R10C
Jul 3, 09 8:08
Post #12 of 28 (553 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [jackmott]
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Dude...aero posts are fast.
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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 8:12
Post #13 of 28 (543 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Record10Carbon]
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Dude...aero posts are fast.
that sums it up right there!
i mean, this is a world where people get excited about ceramic wheel bearings!
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
roady
Jul 3, 09 8:13
Post #14 of 28 (538 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [gabbiev]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike.
Why? They allow considerable flexibility in wheel placement. Practice a little, and rear wheel changes are no harder or slower than with vertical dropouts; use a good quick release and your wheel won't slip. Vertical dropouts at best represen a design compromise.
unless you're also using the bike fixed, is flexibility in wheel placement really that important? I'm not really convinced that having a super-small gap between the tire and frame is really any faster anyway?
I'm in the 'worst design element ever' category--except I like the flexibility to used it fixed. Otherwise, I don't see a benefit--and while it doesn't happen often, a steel internal cam skewer wrenched down can still slip. And, while rare--if it happens it's going to be at the worst possible time (in a race).
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 8:19
Post #15 of 28 (530 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [roady]
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I gotta believe someone saw it faster in a tunnel, because
1. its a pain in the butt to deal with as a bike maker
2. its not a feature with obvious visual appeal, that you would do just because it looks cool (aero seatpost)
In Reply To:
I'm not really convinced that having a super-small gap between the tire and frame is really any faster anyway?
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
blur
Jul 3, 09 8:20
Post #16 of 28 (529 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Bum]
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"Horizontal dropouts have to be one of the worst design elements I've ever seen on a bike."
I've had no problems with my horizontal dropouts, but there is an element of poor design, at least on this bike (happens to be a Quintana Roo Lucero, maybe an '06): I
always
keep the wheel as close as I can get it to the seatpost, no matter what wheel I have on the bike, and there is still a pretty good gap between the wheel and the seat post. I keep the adjustment screws backed out as far as they will go, and I'd just take them out completely if I could get them out. Seems to defeat the whole purpose of the horizontal dropouts!
R10C
Jul 3, 09 8:39
Post #17 of 28 (505 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [blur]
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Who cares if they are functional - or if you have a grease stain on your hand and one side of your handle bar. Who cares if one hand wheel changes with vertical were faster....Horizontal are "Blessed by Gerard" and thus they are the solution to the problem that we all had (if we knew it or not). Knowing the brilliance of Gerard all of the other heathons copied his work...and did a shitty job of it.
(Note - Cervelo's drop outs do get your wheel in nice and tight)
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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 8:41
Post #18 of 28 (500 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Record10Carbon]
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ive got an old old japanese steel frame that has horizontal dropouts but they bend at the end, which would potentially prevent catastrophic disaster if the skewer failed.
In Reply To:
Who cares if they are functional - or if you have a grease stain on your hand and one side of your handle bar. Who cares if one hand wheel changes with vertical were faster....Horizontal are "Blessed by Gerard" and thus they are the solution to the problem that we all had (if we knew it or not). Knowing the brilliance of Gerard all of the other heathons copied his work...and did a shitty job of it.
(Note - Cervelo's drop outs do get your wheel in nice and tight)
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
R10C
Jul 3, 09 8:44
Post #19 of 28 (491 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [jackmott]
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I miss the days of the old forward horizontal drop out where you had to wonder before a sprint if your wheel was going to pull out or not....
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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.
jackmott
Jul 3, 09 8:46
Post #20 of 28 (487 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Record10Carbon]
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I miss the days of the old forward horizontal drop out where you had to wonder before a sprint if your wheel was going to pull out or not....
I was too young in those days to sprint hard enough to do that
also I was playing nintendo anyway
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses:
http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear:
http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel -
http://www.wheelbuilder.com
Tire Crr Data -
http://www.biketechreview.com
gabbiev
Jul 3, 09 8:52
Post #21 of 28 (472 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [roady]
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Hmmm--to me, it sounds mostly like user error than anything else ;) Why go through the cost of buying a good aero frame and wheels if you don't want to optimize the entire system? FWIW, I've never had a issue with a wheel slipping in my Cervelos, and I can put out some serious peak watts. Also, back in the day when all bikes had forward facing horizontal dropouts, there wasn't a rash of wheels slipping in dropouts. I believe that one reason why vertical dropouts became so popular is that they coincided with chainstays becoming shorter--couldn't easily remove/insert a wheel in the old forward dropouts with short chainstays.
Again, use a good skewer, practice a little, and the whole issue of horizontal dropouts becomes a non-issue, at least from a usability perspective.
roady
Jul 3, 09 9:04
Post #22 of 28 (454 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [gabbiev]
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Hmmm--to me, it sounds mostly like user error than anything else ;) Why go through the cost of buying a good aero frame and wheels if you don't want to optimize the entire system? FWIW, I've never had a issue with a wheel slipping in my Cervelos, and I can put out some serious peak watts. Also, back in the day when all bikes had forward facing horizontal dropouts, there wasn't a rash of wheels slipping in dropouts. I believe that one reason why vertical dropouts became so popular is that they coincided with chainstays becoming shorter--couldn't easily remove/insert a wheel in the old forward dropouts with short chainstays.
Again, use a good skewer, practice a little, and the whole issue of horizontal dropouts becomes a non-issue, at least from a usability perspective.
trust me--I understand the 'pilot error' comment, as it's what I would say! And while there weren't 'a rash' of wheels slipping 'back in the day', I'm sure you remember that it did happen.
I think the other variable here is the hub. An allow hub axle w/no knurled ends (like the older Zipp hubs) can slip. I almost needed a cheater-bar to undo the QR the last time I had this happen! Granted, it's slipped twice in probably 100 TT's--I don't want to overstate the problem.
I guess I don't buy the 'optimized' part because I'm not sure I believe that closer is better. I'm open to the idea, but I'd like to see some hard data w/the wheel at say 2mm and 5mm over a range of yaw angles w/a dummy attached to the bike. Until then, I'm leaving mine about 4mm away....
R10C
Jul 3, 09 9:08
Post #23 of 28 (444 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [roady]
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I would like one other factor in this study. My Cervelo has MANY gouges and scratches in it from the tire picking up objects and ripping them through the wheel cut out. How many flats, and how much friction is possible with FOD can be created on a roadway that just isnt there in a wind tunnel....I think your 4mm is spot on.
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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.
Kenney
Jul 3, 09 9:12
Post #24 of 28 (436 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [jackmott]
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Doesn't anybody have rear entry horizontal drop outs anymore?
Litespeedx3
Jul 3, 09 23:54
Post #25 of 28 (333 views)
Re: The downside of horizontal dropouts [Record10Carbon]
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Have your screws turned in during riding due to vibration which causes the wheel to not be aligned on the next change? Both of the Cervelo's at my house did this and I know of a few other brands with the same issue. I'm so glad that my Kueen K has a vertical setup, now if only they could fix the @(*&Y%# seatpost.
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