As a side note, consider how the lack of faith in the program might cause you to lose the self-confidence needed to get the most of the last weeks of training and perform at your best on race day.

This lack of faith is something worth addressing IMO, one way or another.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Well yes it’s a concern. I’m trying to be open to what I’m used to. And have emailed asking his thoughts on tempo work and the lack of it heading into a half. I like to understand the why’s. Confidence is a big thing I agree

I'm in a similar boat training for Daytona rn. Self-coached through ~2.5 years of triathlon with a running background. Had always done a lot of 70.3 specific pace work on the bike & have never had issues with endurance or running off the bike. Started with a new coach & now it's all VO2 + FTP work on the bike. Still have a month to go until the race so we'll see if we transition from that to race specific work. I was honest when we started up that I want to get better. I know I've gotten really efficient at my current power but, honestly, the way I had been training wouldn't really have me making any big gains on the bike. I wasn't really training to push more power. We're doing workouts/sessions I've neglected for years. I like the longer reps at 70.3/140.6. I also don't need them to get better. The FTP workouts with reps in the 10:00-20:00 range end up averaging 70.3 pace for ~2 hours with the recoveries in a 2.5-3 hours ride. I don't think I'll have issues holding that pace straight during the race. It'll honestly be welcome, with all the intensity we've been doing.

It sounds like you've talked to your coach but maybe just re-ask if you're going to do specific pace work as you get closer to the race/what their philosophy is on that.

So a lot of your long rides are mostly Z2, fairly cruisey, a few efforts, but you're not finishing feeling cooked?

There are 100s, no actually 1000s, wait, actually 10s of 1000s of ways to slice the cake.

Some coaches do a lot of vo2, some assign a little. Some assign a lot of tempo/sub threshold work others only a little.

What I would do if it were me and I was 4 weeks out from Busso (great race btw, love it there except for the flies, love Perth and WA as well) would be look at my data from a comparison year(s) back and see if I was making roughly the same gains in the duration needed for the bike leg AND think I could run well off of that.

If you're starting from a really high level and have been doing a lot of threshold/SS/tempo type stuff prior to working with this coach than a vo2 block may be good stimulus.

My advice is talk to your coach, literally schedule a time to chat, in person or on the phone, and have them walk you through the plan.

Hope that helps

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

This question doesn't mean much without a definition of what you mean by tempo. High sweet spot/threshold are two definitions people sometimes use to mean tempo. 3h zone 2 is defined as below tempo by many.

How is your coach defining the zones, whatever thru may be, and what testing is he doing to set it confirm the zones? And how does that relate to your definition of tempo?

The long rides atleast yep. The other rides are indeed killers at times.

Well true zone 3 - around 80% ftp.

I’m making gains in short course and my run as well. However this is the first hit out with longer stuff so will see I guess.

I have a response

Hey mate it’s a really good question and well worth asking!
Anyway I asked if we don’t do much tempo because it is sometimes seen as a grey zone’

His response :

‘….. tempo is pretty much grey zone where we don’t necessarily want to spend too much time. It’s useful for specific training and for dialling in intensities and “getting used” to race pace, but it’s not essential to train a lot of tempo to be able to race at tempo on race day. It’s also pretty fatiguing to accumulate too much time there, even though it may not really seem like it at the time. Hopefully doing less tempo helps you go into race day fresher compared to previously.

Physiologically we get better training benefits from working sun-threshold/threshold/vo2 which is why you’ll see more of that in there’

Well, I am not an expert but feel it can depend on the hours per week you can expend.

Part of me feels like you’re not necessarily going to be able to do X if you’re never doing X. Like, if you need to crank out 800kj/hr for a few hours I would hope at some point in training you do it. Not always, but sometimes.

To me vo2 raises the vo2 max when threshold as a % of vo2max gets too close. Then threshold when threshold is a bit lower as a %. Back and forth to get where you want to be.

I did 3 hrs tempo today. It’s hard. Just with gravel and gearing sometimes pure z2 can’t be done as easily. Good for getting used to consuming calories and carbs.

His response is pretty much in line with most modern training theories. Always a good idea to ask the coach, even if for nothing more than a confidence boost.

The caveat is in how you arrived at your FTP value and how that relates to your metabolism changes at different %'s. A criterium racer taking a ramp test is going to end up training far too hard. Opposite for someone who eschews speed work in favor of Z2 only. Ideally you'd want to base your training off the most specific numbers you can get for an event, in this case previous 70.3's.

Big picture though it should be fine. 70.3 efforts are balanced enough that you need as big of an article base as you can get but also a fairly high lactate tolerance which can be effectively built by VO2 work as well.

Hopefully doing less tempo helps you go into race day fresher compared to previously.


That to me is telling

Sounds like maybe you told him you went into previous races not fresh. Is that possible?

Oh I went in fresh I was ok had good bike legs. Run is hit and miss. My bike training in lead up was thur tempo rides up to 2hrs trainer and tempo sat as well broken 3 hrs. Perhaps I over tempo’d lol but I did race well as far as the bike went. I did have a good run off that build up as well but that isn’t always the case. I guess that’s why I find it very different to do next to zero tempo in the lead up. That 2 hours I did the other week as a one off killed me and it shouldn’t , hence the worry

I'm a fairly strong biker, often top 10. My best HIM finish time by 20mins was the one where I 'underbiked' and nded up with an overall position higher than my bike position. Taking 10mins off the bike requires a huge effort. Blowing 10mins on the run just needs you to lose it at the 19km mark.

So going in with a lot of training at 270w is leading you to race at that level as you are used to that feel, and you'll end up blowing on the latter half of the run as you're never doing a 15km+ run in training off the back of 2 hours at tempo.

I guess everyone responds differently and more than one way to skin a cat, but I've always done better on the bike when the program has incorporated tempo and Z2 rides were reserved for recovery weeks. So long rides at the moment might be 100km inc 8 x 15m efforts with 3 min recovery. So that's 2 hours of efforts. That's got to be more beneficial than 3 hours cruising? I've also found shop rides to be really beneficial. Don't do them when on a program, but they would typically be 50km balls to the wall.

i am similar. I mean i have 6x3 mins v02 mixed in, which is very new to me on a long ride. Well trust the process and see i guess ...

Knowing the Busso course pretty well, are you training to power at the moment? If so, how accurate is your FTP?
I know each coach has their own methodologies, but there is a skill to be able to ride to your targeted race power on the day that requires some practice at riding at that race power beforehand.
My coach would often sprinkle in race paced efforts on my long rides leading into race day. Eg 3X 20 mins at 85% FTP with 5 min recovery...(85% FTP being the generally agreed power target for 70.3 races, some will push a bit more, some a bit less).
There is something to be said for the specificity of learning to ride at the actual pace/power you will be wanting to hit on the day.
4 weeks out from Busso you realistically have two long rides left so these would be the key rides to do this on....depending on your recovery profile you could also do a longish ride one week out and have a shorter taper....but I would be nervous if I was not doing anything specific for race day in these sessions...

2 long rides over the last 4 weeks before a 70.3 is that the usual way of training?

What do you consider a long ride in time?

Intensity?

For reference, we have been doing a *little* tempo, just not as much as im used to. Youre right we have 2 long rides left. One is described below. EG:

-sat COMING is 3hr ride with 6x3mins v02 within. rest z2
- sat just gone, was z2 3 hours z2 however last 30mins tempo with 6km run off the bike. (i was naughty did 2hrs worth of tempo, not 30mins)
-sat previous i raced a race sunday so no hard sat ride.
- sat before was 3 hours, with 2x1hr tempo (rest z2)
-sat before was 3hours z2 with 3x30 tempo
-sat before was a race (short)
-sat before was 2hr ride, threshold intervals within

So there hasnt been a huge amount. I often did thur rides up to 2hours all tempo, sat long and all at tempo with small rests. Now, my thur is more sweetspot / v02/ threshold mix.

yup

So 18mins of work and the rest is Z2?

There are three weekends left before race weekend and for us that would normally be two long ride each weekend with a run off the bike and then generally starting the taper and so not much of a long ride that final weekend pre race.

Long for us would normally be 3.5-4 hours for a 70.3 build-that’s aiming for a race day bike split of around 2:20ish…..

this week....yep

yep - busso im usually just over 36kmhr average, under 2:30. Would love to be 2:20 and be able to run!

hmmm.. My best Busso bike splits mid 2.2x have all been off the back of programs with fairly hard bike sessions. 3+ hour rides with quite a few efforts, generally feeling cooked after each ride, much like a 70.3 race. Pretty different to what you're doing. I'm not a coach, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but I'd be wanting to be doing a lot more than 18m of efforts unless this is a recovery week?

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

I can only go with what my coach believes in (very successful coach)...
This last 4 weeks is all about icing on the cake and specificity.....
I am not sure what your tempo work zones are (% FTP)....
If it is your first 70.3 then there is still a fair bit to learn....
And now is not the time to question your coaches approach to things.
Trust the process.
But really start to think about a race day plan....what bike target power you will hold etc....executing a good 70.3 takes some discipline. It is so so easy to go out way to hard on the bike and the run depending on your strengths.

I reckon just go with what your coach has set you, see how you go. And as Amnesia said, focus on raceplan, know what HR/Power you need to be at for the bike, know what pace you need to run at, and be disciplined to stick at it. i.e if you're planning on running 4.30 pace and are running at 4.15 as you feel good, have the discipline to slow down. That feeling good stage lasts about 7km. I'm talking from experience here!

your coach should know what you need, if he has determined that for your profile, your strength and weakness that is your training for succeed in the 70.3 you need to be confindent in the plan

the bike leg of the 70.3 could be done with an if of 0.8 to 0.9 easily. Your z2 would be up to 0.75, and your sweet spot between 0.9 to 0.95, and you have also training to mantain z2 rides with vo2max efforts in between

so you would be more than prepared to ride the bike leg. But Z3 tempos may not add nothing to your training, only to coach you to have experience in the race pace

sweet spot = high z3

This is what we have (ignore the power, thats from someone who weighs 50kg!)

fully agree with him

If I’m running 4:15 off the bike then I have way too much energy lol

Also that workout doesn’t seem to bad at all 10x6 tempo with 3 mins easy between, I’d take that!

Also I agree amnesia high z2 can sort of be not far off z3 In itself. In training I know my hr and power with my history of long course. My legs tend to go before my hr goes so I know what I can hold and run ok after a heavy diet of tempo. Will hold the same and see what happens. Here’s hoping for calm winds and a flat ocean on a cool day

The 70.3 goes super nice and early so you often miss the worst of the wind and heat! It’s a great course and a great day!

Are you used to racing with power?
I say that as for Busso I set my computer up with %FTP as my top number…aiming to hold 85-88% for the race. Think I have had second fastest bike split in my age group before there…..

Yep used to power, I have a power range. Last year I was well above that and slogged out a slow 5:23 average km run. And I have had power for years. I should know better. But first 3/4 of the bike, the higher than normal power felt easy. Last 10 kms heading back into town. Uh-oh. Good feelings gone. But yeh, used to power. Need to cool my jets on it and embrace lower power so I can run.
88% is very high ! That’s more my oly pace lol.

be confidente,
and after the race take conclusions

as I already said, the training plan is ok, you should follow it... if not, change of coach (but the problem is you, not the coach).

LOL, if 88% if your Oly pace then your numbers may be a little wrong. Technically an Oly should be around 95-100% of FTP, assuming you can run well off that intensity over that duration!
Good luck, I hope you report back in this thread with a race report.

It's highly individual, but 100% would be a "straight to the ambulance" ride for most and not an intensity pushed off of a hard swim into a 10k run. 95% isn't far off that.

90% is my usual target with a 1:01 to 1:05 duration of effort. For back-of-packers it will likely be even lower.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Ok great

Thank you for taking the time to post the detailed information

If you're doing in Oly bike (~1h bike) at 100% of your FTP (1h max output) then there's something wrong with you FTP test.

IamSpartacus - where are you riding tomorrow? We are doing Joondalup to Muchea if you want to join us, a variety of abilities.

I’m at the other end ! Mandurah. Cheers for that Invite though! You still group ride for busso training ? Of spread it out a bit so your not quite a peloton?

Ah bit far!

There's a range of abilities, still riding like a peleton, but will split into small groups and the efforts seem to work well. No-one is riding easy for the efforts, stronger guys at the front, others at the back holding on but roughly sticking to power. It's more or less sticking to the plan, just not exactly.