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New bike - now which wheels!
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Patiently waiting on a new Trek SCā€¦ considering some different options on wheels. Experience with Zipp 454/858 and the Super-9 disc. But super curious on others thoughts for comparables with HED or Swisside? Any opinions / experience here?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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I have Zipp wheels, disc and 858 and a couple of Chinese made cheap training wheels. Zipp wheels are overrated in my opinion. Some wheels are not as expensive as Zipp but faster. Iā€™m sure other people will chime in but my advice is donā€™t get caught up on name brand like I did. I was a newb and I thought name brand wheels are absolutely faster than other wheels. Unfortunately, I didnā€™t know Slowtwitch back then and had no one to helped me. Good luck!!
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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Are you looking for an all around set out just race day only?

I'd agree with the comment above regarding zipp. Perfectly fine wheels, but there are so many options that are great now that kind of makes it hard to justify Zipp prices.

HED, Hunt, and others are all really good with slightly lower price points. If you want to go the route of off brand generic, there are a lot of china direct options that have compelling value, but with less flare and possibly service.

I think the bigger thing is rim width and depth. I'd be looking for a pair with an internal width of at least 21mm. Front wheel 60-80mm. Rear 75-full disc. Wheels and tires are going wider.... So best not to be way behind.
Last edited by: wildh24: Jan 28, 24 12:37
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [wildh24] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - looking for race wheels, and Iā€™ll also grab a full disc as well - or at least will take a look at them. Racing on mainly 70.3 courses, some rolling hills, some flats.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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AndyDawson01 wrote:
Thanks - looking for race wheels, and Iā€™ll also grab a full disc as well - or at least will take a look at them. Racing on mainly 70.3 courses, some rolling hills, some flats.

Are you keeping the stock bontrager for training?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [wildh24] [ In reply to ]
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Thatā€™s the plan yes
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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So many options. So many great options.

My GF and I ride Aerocoach, Zephyr fronts and she has the standard read disc and I have the lighter ultra version. We have one Zephr rear also.

If I was buying a new set today Iā€™d most likely buy Princeton and then Swisside.

Money isnā€™t a factor, so Iā€™m not looking for value, looking at solely what I want to ride.

Also, if wondering, we both ride P5D and are located in the USA.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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s13tx wrote:
I have Zipp wheels, disc and 858 and a couple of Chinese made cheap training wheels. Zipp wheels are overrated in my opinion. Some wheels are not as expensive as Zipp but faster. Iā€™m sure other people will chime in but my advice is donā€™t get caught up on name brand like I did. I was a newb and I thought name brand wheels are absolutely faster than other wheels. Unfortunately, I didnā€™t know Slowtwitch back then and had no one to helped me. Good luck!!

^^^this

Unless you have money to burn I wouldn't bother. At the very least buy second hand. I have a $800 rear disc and would bet good money it is no slower than a $3k zipp or Dt Swiss
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Pwraddr] [ In reply to ]
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Pwraddr wrote:
So many options. So many great options.

My GF and I ride Aerocoach, Zephyr fronts and she has the standard read disc and I have the lighter ultra version. We have one Zephr rear also.

If I was buying a new set today Iā€™d most likely buy Princeton and then Swisside.

Money isnā€™t a factor, so Iā€™m not looking for value, looking at solely what I want to ride.

Also, if wondering, we both ride P5D and are located in the USA.

The Princeton options are interesting. Would love to see the data on the new offerings.

You bring up a point on this in terms of cost. To the OP, it kind of depends on your budget and/or your objectives. I could afford the super high end stuff but personally just can't overcome my value bias in things, and always end up sourcing rims and building myself. For the first time I just ordered a pre built set of Ali from a seller that was very good on the communication side. For $1400 (on sale and small package deal) was able to buy a 65F/75R carbon spoke build AND a rear disc. Star ratchet hubs with ceramic bearings (common sized bearings so easy swap if they are poor quality).

So again, I think it depends on what you want to spend or are trying to achieve. I wouldn't compromise on the rim specs though. 21 internal minimum width.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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HED, in my experience, has exceptional customer service and an American made product that is outstanding. Call them and see what they can do for you.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [wildh24] [ In reply to ]
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wildh24 wrote:
I could afford the super high end stuff but personally just can't overcome my value bias in things, and always end up sourcing rims and building myself.

The 24 spoke front wheels on disc bikes would be a good thing to avoid think... But if you are value conscious, you might be on an old rim brake bike.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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Yoeleo wheels have 2 sets for triathlon bikes thousands of miles 1/3 cost of zipp or enve from china in 4 weeks they are a tour France supplierā€¦. Good people to deal with check them out on line
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [rhudson] [ In reply to ]
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rhudson wrote:
Yoeleo wheels have 2 sets for triathlon bikes thousands of miles 1/3 cost of zipp or enve from china in 4 weeks they are a tour France supplierā€¦. Good people to deal with check them out on line

Who at the tour is riding Yoeleo ?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
wildh24 wrote:
I could afford the super high end stuff but personally just can't overcome my value bias in things, and always end up sourcing rims and building myself.

The 24 spoke front wheels on disc bikes would be a good thing to avoid think... But if you are value conscious, you might be on an old rim brake bike.

Yep...on a Gen 2 speed concept. 16 hole front. šŸ˜‰

Are concerned about torque and needing more spokes?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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AndyDawson01 wrote:
Thatā€™s the plan yes

Why?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.

Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.

For sure. Would be nice! Just keep a set of training rubber on one and race rubber on the other.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [wildh24] [ In reply to ]
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wildh24 wrote:
Are concerned about torque and needing more spokes?


No, it just seems odd that nearly all the TT disc wheels appear to be poorly designed for their task. It's weird because... don't people still care about aero? Is anyone testing them? I understand that disc TT bikes are the thing now, and pretty much all you can buy, and that won't change anytime soon... but no one even seems to be trying to make them as good as they could be.

The main task difference is that the front disc wheel needs to handle braking torque. That might be a lot of torque too when braking is involved, but I question whether the potential of disc brakes is wasted on a TT bike. I've personally done an endo in a race when I was trying to stop to avoid a crash. That was with old Campy Record sidepulls, that absolutely suck for braking power compared to modern caliper brakes. But still if it's properly adjusted and you grab them hard, a forward endo-faceplant is the result... just physics. Where it's nice to have powerful brakes is when you need to use them a lot for a long time... and having the braking force not heat up your rim/tube/tire is sensible. So on MTBs and maybe road bikes it makes sense. On TT... not so much...

Sorry, I'm drifting. The task is making the TT disc front wheel handle braking torque while being as aero as possible. Torque is lever arm and force, simple enough. So triplet lacing with a big flange with tangential lacing on the disc side will do this the best, with the least stuff churning in the breeze. And yet I see 24 spoke small flange front hubs even by the big manufacturers. Zipp uses 20 spokes, but still small flange hubs... and they even radial lace the non-disc side even though the hub is beefy enough to transmit a good amount of torque.

The only sensible one I've seen is the Specialized Roval. Triplet lacing with a big DS flange, and radial on the little NDS flange, 14-7. Maybe not perfect, but at least they put some thought into it, while I'm not sure what the other companies are doing... but it looks like they are using off the shelf MTB hubs...


Last edited by: rruff: Jan 28, 24 18:55
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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Having had many of the name brands you've listed (no knock offs as I treasure my life) I really would look long and hard at Swissside. JP Ballard does incredible work and these wheels are amazing. I have a couple of sets and you really will not do better than Swissside or DT Swiss. Hubs, wheels, cutting edge and up to date aero tested products make them a buy worth every penny.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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If it is project one it may be too late, but could have been worth the wheel upgrade to the aeolus 75ā€™s? They are a fine wheelset. Thatā€™s what I did
And run them for club races and smaller events. Bugger races I bought a dt swiss disc for. I have had zipp in the past. They are ok but meh
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I went the 'easy' way and went for the Bonty RSL 75s. Add in my Roval CLX IIs from my road bike and I'm covered for the options I need there.

By all accounts the RSLs handle well with crosswinds too (like the CLX) and for me then that is bar far the most impactful part of the wheels compared to any otehr similar in terms of aero - the additional time I'm down on the aero bars will offset any microsecond speed difference between the wheels.

And as a bonus the bontys were incredibly good value compared to anything else I could have bought.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I got ya now. Yeah I can definitely see your point. I wear thinking you were advocating needing more than 24 spokes on the front... In which I was scratching my head a bit.

I had one of the early sets of Reynolds 20 hole xc MTB wheels on a cdale lefty. It was flexy and problematic. I voted to never do less 28 on a MTB wheel again.... But that's a bet different beast.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.

What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [wildh24] [ In reply to ]
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wildh24 wrote:
I had one of the early sets of Reynolds 20 hole xc MTB wheels on a cdale lefty. It was flexy and problematic. I voted to never do less 28 on a MTB wheel again.... But that's a bet different beast.

The deep aero rims are completely different... heck the structure is such that wheels with only 3 spokes (big carbon spokes, but still...) have worked very well for decades. You do still need good lateral bracing and stiffness, but there is plenty of space in 100mm dropouts to achieve that with less than 24 Cx-ray size spokes.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.

What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes

Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.

Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Mudge] [ In reply to ]
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Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.


Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.



Umm yeah. Iā€™m not arguing that bikes and wheels are meant to ride across the ocean. I assume you arenā€™t arguing that bikes and wheels arenā€™t meant to be used for cycling.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Jan 29, 24 7:31
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.


Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.



Umm yeah. Iā€™m not arguing that bikes and wheels are meant to ride across the ocean. I assume you arenā€™t arguing that bikes and wheels arenā€™t meant to be used for cycling.

I'm arguing that various bikes have different purposes, and should be ridden primarily for those purposes. If someone has race wheels or a race bike that they don't train on, who are you to judge that it's a "right total waste"? FWIW, you have it twisted. If you have limited income, you don't risk destroying your race gear by frequent use.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.

This is a good idea. I learned it hard way. Went to a bike rally with a rear disc wheel, crashed and buckled Zipp Super 9. Definitely, I should have kept it for races and used training wheels but back then, I didnā€™t have any extra wheels for training purpose. I do a lot of races in a year so disc wheel gets used a lot. Ended up spending a lot of money to buy another one.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Michaelatkison] [ In reply to ]
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Michaelatkison wrote:
HED, in my experience, has exceptional customer service and an American made product that is outstanding. Call them and see what they can do for you.

+1 for HED. My Vanquish wheel set has been one of my best bike-related purchases.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Mudge] [ In reply to ]
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Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.


Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.



Umm yeah. Iā€™m not arguing that bikes and wheels are meant to ride across the ocean. I assume you arenā€™t arguing that bikes and wheels arenā€™t meant to be used for cycling.


I'm arguing that various bikes have different purposes, and should be ridden primarily for those purposes. If someone has race wheels or a race bike that they don't train on, who are you to judge that it's a "right total waste"? FWIW, you have it twisted. If you have limited income, you don't risk destroying your race gear by frequent use.


Agreed. One doesn't do all their running in carbon plated race shoes....

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Mudge] [ In reply to ]
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Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.


Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.



Umm yeah. Iā€™m not arguing that bikes and wheels are meant to ride across the ocean. I assume you arenā€™t arguing that bikes and wheels arenā€™t meant to be used for cycling.


I'm arguing that various bikes have different purposes, and should be ridden primarily for those purposes. If someone has race wheels or a race bike that they don't train on, who are you to judge that it's a "right total waste"? FWIW, you have it twisted. If you have limited income, you don't risk destroying your race gear by frequent use.


Got it. Agree to disagree that bike equipment should become museum pieces. Iā€™ve never once ā€œdestroyedā€ a bike wheel by merely using it for its intended purpose.

At least for me, this is a decision in economics. I wouldnā€™t have an issue buying carbon plates run shoes for $300 and limiting use. I limit use of my trisuits to very limited training and races. But for me, when it comes to a pricey wheelset, I personally choose to enjoy them as much as possible. To each his own.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Jan 29, 24 19:17
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Mudge wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
AndyDawson01 wrote:
Why not? I have a personal preference to keeping a set of wheels I only use for races.


Because I donā€™t understand why someone would spend that much on a wheelset and keep them in their garage except for a few times/year.


What about those people who have an entire dedicated race bike if they only use for races šŸ˜± yikes


Right total waste. If you have untold income, fine. But equipment is meant to be used.


Equipment is meant to be used for its rightful purpose.

One doesn't drive nails with the butt of a screwdriver handle just because it's in the tool box.



Umm yeah. Iā€™m not arguing that bikes and wheels are meant to ride across the ocean. I assume you arenā€™t arguing that bikes and wheels arenā€™t meant to be used for cycling.

Loop
I'm arguing that various bikes have different purposes, and should be ridden primarily for those purposes. If someone has race wheels or a race bike that they don't train on, who are you to judge that it's a "right total waste"? FWIW, you have it twisted. If you have limited income, you don't risk destroying your race gear by frequent use.


Got it. Agree to disagree that bike equipment should become museum pieces. Iā€™ve never once ā€œdestroyedā€ a bike wheel by merely using it for its intended purpose.

At least for me, this is a decision in economics. I wouldnā€™t have an issue buying carbon plates run shoes for $300 and limiting use. I limit use of my trisuits to very limited training and races. But for me, when it comes to a pricey wheelset, I personally choose to enjoy them as much as possible. To each his own.

I guess weā€™re in agreement. I donā€™t think bike equipment should become museum pieces, either.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Mudge] [ In reply to ]
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With a rim brake bike, riding a set of trainers made sense as braking could be poor especially in wet mountains roads on carbon. With disc brake bikes, I donā€™t see a reason to have multiple sets for a tri bike. No Iā€™m not gonna ride a rear disc everyday but I will run an 80 deep DT Swiss. I donā€™t think you can beat the work done by the guys at Swiss side. That being said, I will buy a wheelsfar disc because I canā€™t see spending more than $1k on a rear wheel I only ride a few times per year for .5 watts difference IF THATā€¦
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure of the ETRTO standards for 2024 on bike wheels but I do know they are moving wider & many such as Zipp are not quite on the internal width game plan from what I understand. DT Swiss is a "trending brand" much like Enve was a few years ago. Hard to go wrong with quality like HED but some don't like spoked disc wheels & the no-"whomp whomp sound effect" of HEDs...which really has zero effect on the performance itself. However, one to also look at that is getting good reviews is a newer company called "LIGHT BICYCLE" wheels. They are Chinese & not to be confused with "Lightweight" wheels (the uber exclusive overly priced brand from Germany). But the internal widths of the LIGHT brand are current and one of the wider ones you'll find out there. Zipps are quite narrow on the internal width.

Zipps are due for a price reduction in their wheels to keep pace I think...overpriced for sure. DT Swiss / Suisseside are not a whole lot better in price. Better or as good of wheels out there for much less. I'd check out LIGHT and very much check out HED. Sam Laidlow rides HED, Armstrong rode HED, the Big Four rode HED. Has to be fast right? Lionel rides HED.
Last edited by: Rocky M: Jan 30, 24 9:31
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Agree, how on earth Zipp (Sram..) or DT Swiss justify their prices is bewildering! It's not as if there is any research and development costs to cover...oh wait yeah, they mimicked a 150 ton whale that travel 5 mph through water for their latest wheels that were absolute rubbish.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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When I was looking at new race wheels last year I really wanted the Parcours disc/chronic set ($2100) but the DB disc was forever backordered. Both have wide internal and external rim width to flush fit 28mm tires. Something many companies don't offer for disc wheel.

I ultimately got three wheels from three different manufacturers - 80mm DT Swiss, Revolver trispoke clone for front and Prime disc wheel. After looking at retired technology HED and Zipp disc wheels collecting dust in my garage there was no way I was going to spend a lot for a DB disc.

The trispoke/disc has been an outstanding combination for windy races.

Have fun with your new bike! Post a picture when you get it set up.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Riedinaustin] [ In reply to ]
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What tire are you running in the Prime Disc please?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
What tire are you running in the Prime Disc please?

Last season 25mm Goodyear Eagle F1 SS R tlc with Vittoria Airliner. About the same RR as gp5000 tl but easier to mount and fits Airliner in case of blowout. I may use something different this season.
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Riedinaustin] [ In reply to ]
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Is anyone tried Parcours?
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [Skipp80] [ In reply to ]
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Skipp80 wrote:
Is anyone tried Parcours?

I wonā€™t dilute the overall debate here but happy to help if you have any specific questions
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [AndyDawson01] [ In reply to ]
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Well if you want a like new set of HED race wheels, tubeless compatible, at a steep discount:


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._string=hed#p8069890
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Re: New bike - now which wheels! [_canadian] [ In reply to ]
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_canadian wrote:
Michaelatkison wrote:
HED, in my experience, has exceptional customer service and an American made product that is outstanding. Call them and see what they can do for you.


+1 for HED. My Vanquish wheel set has been one of my best bike-related purchases.

+2 for HED.
Vanquish 4's on my road bike
Vanquish 8's on my TT bike (+ Vanquish Disc for race day)
Ardennes on my wife's road bike

I've had experience with the Jet Black+ line on my last TT bike as well

Every single wheel was fantastic. Not one issue with the lot of them.
Cheaper, better quality, most are made in the USA.
(and I think if you searched this forum, you'd find that they actually test fastest anyway)
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