Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study (Page 2): Lavender Room: Slowtwitch Forums

Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]

Apr 23, 24 11:30

ThisIsIt wrote:

Seems to me what they should have done is matched the cis "control" subjects (because they shouldn't have been as hard to find) to the transgender subjects on training type, training volume and history, and body weight, but I still think they would have been dogged by their groups being too small.

The authors know this and stated it repeatedly. It was a cross sectional study, and cross sectional studies have weaknesses.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]

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timbasile

Apr 23, 24 11:32

Post #27 of 37 (238 views)

ThisIsIt wrote:

Even then, all they would have proven is a comparison between untrained or at best moderately trained groups. Which, for this study, would be equivalent to figuring out if you should admit trans athletes into your Friday night beer league, for which there are far fewer stakes, and I suspect, more acceptance anyway.

The real question - as to Olympic or National calibre athletes, is a much harder issue to study.

Last edited by: timbasile: Apr 23, 24 11:33

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [trail] [ In reply to ]

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ThisIsIt

Apr 23, 24 11:42

Post #28 of 37 (223 views)

trail wrote:

Granted he only used the term "suggests" which is always a great bailout. I use that term in like every other sentence in my daily work so in case I'm wrong I can bail myself out...

It's also appropriate to use if that's all you can know from the data.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [timbasile] [ In reply to ]

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trail

Apr 23, 24 11:45

Post #29 of 37 (216 views)

timbasile wrote:

The real question - as to Olympic or National calibre athletes, is a much harder issue to study.

I'm not sure that's the real question. This is talking about public policy that's, as we speak, trickling down from the IOC level down to NCAA and then high school. And even below. The cohort of those affected is far greater than just Olympic/National level athletes. For young trangender athletes they could be affected before there's ever even an inkling of "Olympic" potential. And, on the other side, low level DIII CW NCAA players who will never reach anything close to national status could get dominated by TW. (if there is indeeed a large advantage in that cohort).

It seems unfair allow TW women compete with CW until they reach national/Olympic status then suddenly kick them out. Unfair to both CW and TW.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [trail] [ In reply to ]

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chaparral

Apr 23, 24 11:57

Post #30 of 37 (210 views)

trail wrote:

It seems unfair allow TW women compete with CW until they reach national/Olympic status then suddenly kick them out. Unfair to both CW and TW.

I don’t think most people playing sports in high school are doing so because they think they will one day play in college or the Olympics. That is a real niche group. I think if you told a trans athlete they will not be able to compete in the Olympics, but they could play high school, they would probably be cool with it. So I don’t see how it would be “unfair”.

Really playing sports at that level are not just competition, but also other social aspects.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

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trail

Apr 23, 24 12:12

Post #31 of 37 (204 views)

chaparral wrote:

So I don’t see how it would be “unfair”.

If you played well enough to reach elite/Olympic level, but then were suddently told you could not because you were "too good" you might consider that unfair.

I think of Caster Semenya again (not transgender). What was done to her at times was inconsistent and unfair.

Sporting rules should be largely consistent across ages, gender, and gender identity. Where it makes reasonable sense to do so.

There is no solution here that isn't at some level "unfair" to someone. Pretending that everything can be hunky dory to everyone is, I think, not a clear-eyed view of the issue.

Last edited by: trail: Apr 23, 24 12:13

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]

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trail

Apr 23, 24 12:15

Post #32 of 37 (200 views)

ThisIsIt wrote:

It's also appropriate to use if that's all you can know from the data.

Though in his case I think it would have been worthwhile pointing out some other possible suggestions, not just his one "preferred" suggestion.

Like maybe the TW were, at least in part, fatter because of the effect of TW getting fatter after transition. A known physiological effect of cutting off T. "Dad bod" is a thing.......CM often get fatter in middle/old age for what's pretty well established to be the exact same cause...just natural reduction in male hormones instead of forced.

Last edited by: trail: Apr 23, 24 12:17

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

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manofthewoods

Apr 23, 24 12:16

Post #33 of 37 (197 views)

chaparral wrote:

trail wrote:

It seems unfair allow TW women compete with CW until they reach national/Olympic status then suddenly kick them out. Unfair to both CW and TW.

Regarding your last sentence...
Does the "social aspects" include hanging out in the girls locker room? Pretty much every boys fantasy. If you have a HS daughter, probably not a enchanting prospect.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]

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trail

Apr 23, 24 12:20

Post #34 of 37 (195 views)

manofthewoods wrote:

Does the "social aspects" include hanging out in the girls locker room? Pretty much every boys fantasy.

1) This hasn't seemed to have been much more than a fear to this point. There are thousands of TW in schools at this point, and scant evidence of boys faking TW status in order to "get in the locker room."

2) I was a fully red-blooded young male, that was never my fantasy. My fantasies about women mostly involved them voluntarily revealing themselves to me, not me fabricating some ruse to "get one over" on them.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]

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Nutella

Apr 23, 24 12:41

Post #35 of 37 (183 views)

manofthewoods wrote:

Nutella wrote:

manofthewoods wrote:

Nutella wrote:

manofthewoods wrote:

sphere wrote:

Interesting findings, VO2 max in particular.

Quote:

A groundbreaking study that was sponsored by the International Olympic Committee and released late last week sought to compare a range of athletic abilities between trans athletes and their cisgender counterparts. The finding that trans women athletes are at a relative disadvantage in many key physical areas relating to athletic ability and perform worse on cardiovascular tests than their cisgender counterparts

Quote:

Objective The primary objective of this cross-sectional study was to compare standard laboratory performance metrics of transgender athletes to cisgender athletes.

Methods 19 cisgender men (CM) (mean±SD, age: 37±9 years), 12 transgender men (TM) (age: 34±7 years), 23 transgender women (TW) (age: 34±10 years) and 21 cisgender women (CW) (age: 30±9 years) underwent a series of standard laboratory performance tests, including body composition, lung function, cardiopulmonary exercise testing, strength and lower body power. Haemoglobin concentration in capillary blood and testosterone and oestradiol in serum were also measured.

Results In this cohort of athletes, TW had similar testosterone concentration (TW 0.7±0.5 nmol/L, CW 0.9±0.4 nmol/), higher oestrogen (TW 742.4±801.9 pmol/L, CW 336.0±266.3 pmol/L, p=0.045), higher absolute handgrip strength (TW 40.7±6.8 kg, CW 34.2±3.7 kg, p=0.01), lower forced expiratory volume in 1 s:forced vital capacity ratio (TW 0.83±0.07, CW 0.88±0.04, p=0.04), lower relative jump height (TW 0.7±0.2 cm/kg; CW 1.0±0.2 cm/kg, p<0.001) and lower relative V̇O2max (TW 45.1±13.3 mL/kg/min/, CW 54.1±6.0 mL/kg/min, p<0.001) compared with CW athletes. TM had similar testosterone concentration (TM 20.5±5.8 nmol/L, CM 24.8±12.3 nmol/L), lower absolute hand grip strength (TM 38.8±7.5 kg, CM 45.7±6.9 kg, p=0.03) and lower absolute V̇O2max (TM 3635±644 mL/min, CM 4467±641 mL/min p=0.002) than CM.

Conclusion While longitudinal transitioning studies of transgender athletes are urgently needed, these results should caution against precautionary bans and sport eligibility exclusions that are not based on sport-specific (or sport-relevant) research.

The study does not, and, cannot account for as Martina Navratilova calls them "failed male athletes." Those who are actually "pretty good" at a sport, but relish winning over basic dignity and sportsmanship (sportspersonship). Scientific study aside; Sorry if that offends, but I'm not in the minority on this.

Do you really think there are men that are willing to go through two years of hormone therapy just so they can be mediocre female athletes?

Do you have an example of this?

I'd say Lia Thomas did pretty good against females

She had the 6th fastest time in the nation before transitioning so I don't think she qualified as "failed".

I think I may have misunderstood your, and Martina's, point. I don't think there are any men transitioning just to win more but if your point is that a more high level athlete might have a different response the data on that is mixed. Lia did well but under the new rules would not be allowed to compete. June Eastwood was a top male runner. When she transitioned there was lots of concern about her dominating, she didn't. She had one decent season then faded. She also competed under the old rules of only a single year of HRT. Based on her more recent performances she did not do well after 2 years of HRT. The only other person I can think of is Pippa York. She transitioned after she retired but has talked about how there is no way she could be competitive as her Vo2 dropped like a rock and she could not recover while on HRT.

My quick Google fu...
"Her rank had moved from 65th on the men's team to 1st on the women's team in the 500yard freestyle, and 554th on the men's team to 5th on the women's team in the 200yard freestyle"
So, yeah, as a male a good swimmer. Great? No. Arguing that was a "fair" situation, and a high point for women's swimming - a uphill battle for sure, especially if you trained for years to get a scholarship and/or podium place in meets against Lia.

I have never argued that Lia was fair or a high point for women. I am glad that FINA and the NCAA changed the rules to insure it does not happen again.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [trail] [ In reply to ]

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velocomp

Apr 23, 24 17:59

Post #36 of 37 (150 views)

trail wrote:

timbasile wrote:

The real question - as to Olympic or National calibre athletes, is a much harder issue to study.

I'm not sure that's the real question. This is talking about public policy that's, as we speak, trickling down from the IOC level down to NCAA and then high school. And even below. The cohort of those affected is far greater tyhan just Olympic/National level athletes. For young trangender athletes they could be affected before there's ever even an inkling of "Olympic" potential. And, on the other side, low level DIII CW NCAA players who will never reach anything close to national status could get dominated by TW. (if there is indeeed a large advantage in that cohort).

It seems unfair allow TW women compete with CW until they reach national/Olympic status then suddenly kick them out. Unfair to both CW and TW.

I tend to agree with your first statement. That Olympic and National caliber is not the real question. I think what is forgotten is that everyone takes the seriousness and competitiveness of sports differently. I grew up playing rec ice hockey, because that is all my parents would pay for (an money wasn't an issue). But I took my play very seriously and was a very competitive kid. Other didn't take it as serious. When I got to high school, I played on a multi time state championship team. In college, I played intermural but always took it seriously, while others not so much. And as an adult I played on many co-ed and rec teams of various sports. While just for fun, I took it seriously, for fun. I would have been upset had teams in co-ed had trans-women dominating the league. Does it matter? No, but that doesn't make it right. And had I been a female looking to compete in female leagues, it would bother me. For many, maybe they don't care, but for some it does matter and should be protected. For trans females, time and time again, it has been said they can continue to compete in the "Open/mens" category. I think that is the fair resolution for any age.

I guess all I'm saying is that at every level, there are people that take sports and competition seriously and fairness should always be considered.

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Re: Strength, power and aerobic capacity of transgender athletes: a cross-sectional study [trail] [ In reply to ]

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monty

Apr 23, 24 18:16

Post #37 of 37 (145 views)

timbasile wrote:

The real question - as to Olympic or National calibre athletes, is a much harder issue to study.
I'm not sure that's the real question. This is talking about public policy that's, as we speak, trickling down from the IOC level down to NCAA and then high school. And even below. The cohort of those affected is far greater than just Olympic/National level athletes. ///

But I think that Tim did put out the first question that has to be answered, and if the answer trickles down from there, well that would make it a straight forward policy from top to bottom. Now if you have separate rules somewhere in the middle, say like colleges and up, high schools and down, then I think that is fine too. But like you said, someone is going to get hurt in any scenario, so you just have to pick who and what group that its going to be. Personally I believe in high level sports they should be kept separate, lower level I really havent thought too much about it to have a strong opinion.

On the one hand as you said, if you let young kids cross over, then at some point the pointy end of them have to be told they are at the end of the line. Or you just set the standard at the very beginning, then no confusion later on. But as I think about it, why make a rule that would affect most youth amateur sports for just a couple that will rise above the top?? It's a tough situation, all I know for sure is how I feel about high level and pro sports here...

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