Well, no more whinging from the east coast teams about having to go to Tempe. Now it's the western teams time to bitch & moan.

Side note: My alma mater, Montana State University Billings, dropped the program in late January under the guise of "budgetary constraints." The school never was able to recruit a full team (while DII on paper they ran the program as a DIII). They had a coaching change. Went to hire a coach at a stipend amount (around $11K annually), and then conveniently dropped the program at the proper time as to not have to refund USAT the grant $$$.

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

That program dropping has put a major damper in things with the fight to get to 40 schools. There's about ~10ish programs currently that are really struggling to actually make actual ncaa compliance. Just fielding a team isn't good enough for NCAA compliance standards, that's really the elephant in the room at this current time. It's not getting 40 schools, it's getting 40 schools to actual compliance that is going to be the bigger hurdle. NCAA begins it's review process in the winter of '24 (after championship season for tri THIS year).

Continues to show if your a program and your only going "half in" your only going to get a half in / half out job from said coach/program....Shocking that all these programs that do bare min to support the programs are struggling to field a ncaa sport in one of the hardest recruiting sports in all of sports.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Can you shed light on what some of these compliance issues are? I'm sure there is an academic vein to it but what else.

On a side note I love your posts on the NCAA and DL stuff

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

To be compliant within ncaa, tri must meet following standards:

4 finishers in 4 races against other NCAA team. However other ncaa team must also have 4 finishers.

*finishers* is current default process however that is being asked to be changed to starter due to flats/crashes/lap out issues.

So a big issue right now is if you do a dual meet vs another program and they aren’t compliant you just lost/wasted an event for your own program even though you were compliant. Teams only get I believe 5 events + champs + spring season (usually 1 event).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You could have a coach in a 5 team meet insist on having the lap out rule really throw a wrench into compliance, especially given the spread of talent in the sport between DI and DIII. Seems like it may be good for them for that meet, yet ultimately bad for the movement as a whole long term.

Am I reading that correctly?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yes, right now there are DL events during the regular season that only are 1 loop. So there is no lap out issue. Only at Regionals and Nationals are there lap out rules (this past year regionals took out the lap out rule due to course issue in the west; thus east regional had to take out lap out rule; but it was a 2 lap course so harder to get lapped out at that distance vs 4 laps etc); currently they can kinda get around it with 2-3 different races and the top talent race A wave and B wave is everyone else

The reality is that the sport isn't deep enough to support the sprint distance format (there's not even enough recruit talent to fill out the D1 rosters let alone the D2/D3 programs). It needs to move to a super sprint prelim/finals (happens in TF/swim) so that's really where the sport needs to go if you want to make full time status.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I tell everyone of my friends' kids that swim and or run that there is more scholarships/discounts to college in triathlon than there are girls racing the sport. If they want to go to college and do a sport triathlon is the way to go.

The reality is for all but 2-3 of the kids I know they aren't going to go to college to swim or run. You can throw a ball at any club swim meet and with 1 throw hit 13 hs senior girls who can swim faster than 5:30 for the 500.

The reality is a lot of HS females who swim say 5:20 for the 500 have the engine to run a sub 19min 5k with some training.

If they can do that, there are schools that want you for their triathlon team but don't want you for the swim or xc/track& field teams

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Do you have a sense of why schools with large endowments that focus more on Olympic sports, in general, aren't interested in triathlon? Is it that they would jump onboard only once triathlon becomes an official NCAA sport? I'm just thinking of those strong academic types, like the Ivy's, that could dominate collegiate triathlon if they wanted to. Why isn't Cornell interested in starting a program with Taylor Knibb as their recruiting pitch? Strong education + Olympic pathway.

There is certainly a segment of AD's of schools that want others to do the legwork to get it to NCAA championships status and then they'll be interested; until then it's not even a real consideration. The costs are 100% on the schools at this point, when it becomes an ncaa championship sport, then the NCAA covers the travel costs for the ncaa championhip event. So there's a lot of moving parts. There's justifiable reasons why schools are waiting it out, and it's why every school that drops out is suddenly a kick to the gut, especially again when the real issue isn't the number of schools- it's the number of compliant schools as suggested from above. Right now that's the real battle we are facing, and then when you are at what 39-42 schools overall, to have 100% compliance just isn't realistic imo, thus you really need like 50 schools to then have full compliancy at like 42 schools. To think every program is going to be 100% compliant before you have to showcase your sport to NCAA's PTB; that's a very very hard ask.

The main issue for NCAA tri is going to be flag football in the coming years. They will have the NFL investing millions of dollars into programs and that's likely going to be a much more sexier sale to AD's when your local NFL team will provide you with 6 figure grant money vs what is offered with in tri (USAT doesn't offer anything close to that).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You're already seeing that popping up at the HS level. Maybe not the money but the draw. Local HS that my HS XC team runs against had 23 females on the xc team in the 2022 season. Had 11 girls for the 2023 season losing 10 girls to flag football and 2 to graduation. Even Cheer lost girls to flag football.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

How do you think this gift impacts the NCAA movement? $850k can go a long way.

Do you think more schools/teams that are on the cusp of folding staying? more schools coming onboard?

https://www.usatriathlon.org/...aa-women-s-triathlon

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

HUGE news and a big thanks to Dave Alexander for the gift.

(Check your email and I gave you my thoughts on it)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I always appreciate your texts, emails and all the thoughts/efforts you into this thread and the NCAA movement.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

It’s just really hard when you know the reality you’re facing. A gift of this magnitude should totally be applauded and appreciated.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

With the doom & gloom (not to mention frustration) hovering around NCAA triathlon due to dropped programs & those on life support, I find this magnanimous & monumental gift a much needed boost of positivity. Add in this weekend's draft legal races in Claremont, and I am hopeful the existing programs can make the necessary progress to be NCAA compliant.

Wishing all the best to the teams that made the trip to central Florida.

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

I wonder what happens if NCAA tri can't get over the line in the next 2-3-4 seasons getting ~ 50-54 schools to get 40 compliant.
What happens to USAT if it fails?
The biggest thing seems to be how do you reach those swimmers that run some but aren't going to go swim at D1 or are burnt out on swimming or those HS runners that also club swim but are B A AA type swimmers and probably aren't going to college to run. That pool (see what I did there) has got to be pretty big. Reaching them though......

If I'm a coach at a year round swim club, IDK if I'm super happy about one of my kids whom I may need for a relay being less involved in swimming and more involved in tri. Especially a small(er) club like where I grew up in where we only had maybe 30 kids on the HS side.

IDK if I'm not happy that they are expanding their possibilities either, need to put myself on deck in their shoes to a greater degree

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

You want to go from emerging sport to championship status at the 10 year mark; that’s sorta the finish line and timeline. However the ncaa likely won’t cancel a women’s sport for mainly title IX implication. Ncaa rugby has been stuck in emerging sport status I think for 17 years and they have ~15 schools. The main issue is that obviously AD’s and college presidents get tired of paying for everything including post season travel; ncaa covers *post season* travel costs when it’s championship status. So then you’ll lose schools at a likely higher clip.

I think the main issue is that with recruiting such a limiter for the smaller D3 schools, usat can’t really do much to improve the situation. And so the likes of the big schools with 6 figure salaries who have no worries are pretty much tied to making it or not on the small schools who are part time programs. It’s an interesting dichotomy.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Do I understand this correctly?

At the NCAA national championships this year the Div I, II,and III, field all start together in the same race field?

Due to the nature of draft legal racing that could really change the race outcome significantly for the Div II and III (and possibly Div I teams)

Also, seems weird that the Div II and III winner will cross the line in the mid of the field to win their national championship.

The potential for a mid level Div II swimmer that is a great biker would "gather" up many Div I great runners/mid bikers and deliver them farther up the field than their talents would warrant.

Why wouldn't they have 3 separate races...Div I, II, III and have enough time between the fields to allow for each division to not have their races significantly affected by the other Divisions race.

So to be more *accurate* it's not the NCAA Championships *yet*. I think the official name of it currently is Women's Triathlon National Championship (and we can't use NCAA logo *officially* even though sometimes I'll even call it "NCAA Tri" Champs) You can't name it an "NCAA" championship until it becomes an actual championship status sport (of which the NCAA is then obvious the "host"). It's also why at the current status, the sport can kinda have it's championship setup however it wants. In '22 it was 3 waves with each wave being D1 / D2 / D3 all separated. This year because we are so close to being moved to NCAA status, it was done as a 2 wave event. 1st wave was the "qualifiers" who were from any Division (obviously the more D1 talented teams were able to qualify more D1 teams), and the 2nd wave was the "everyone else". Now at NCAA Champs, they will only run 1 wave, there's no "participation" trophy wave; they aint in the business of paying for all that travel.

When the NCAA takes it over and it's an official NCAA Championship, there are no divisions, until each divisions has apprx 30 schools to then have it's own division championship. Thus this year it was reasoned we need to be ready for that and understand *this* is the format they are going to use from this point forward, so might as well get used to it. Thus why wave 1 was the "qualified" wave and wave 2 was basically the non-qualified wave (it also helps cover the costs as currently "we" are footing the bill; once it becomes ncaa, NCAA covers the championship costs- location costs, travel costs, all costs associated).

Obviously in the early years the overwhelming majoirty of D3 schools will never make it to NCAA championship once it's full status sport. There's talks of having an "Coaches Association" National championship, in which case the coaches group can basically "name" D2/D3 "coaches association" natonal championships. It won't obviously hold the same weight as NCAA title, and some AD/s'Prez aren't going to pay for travel for that "non official" title, but it's atleast the alternative. Within that format, essentially NCAA Regionals will be the final event for most schools (similiar to XC right now where overwhelming majority of teams end their season at NCAA postseason regional site).

The format will likely be ~70-90 racers (closer to ITU/usat JE cup race limits); So roughly 8-10 teams of 7 + 15-20 "individuals".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Got it....

I'm familiar with NCAA fencing (with 45 college programs) and that is the way its done (one championship, no Div championships).....its a big deal if a Div III fencer makes in to the NCAA championships since it does not happen very often....

That does eliminate the opportunity for Div II and III triathlon teams and individuals to chase a national title or podium, which can be a carrot for those teams and athletes in those divisions which could help a bit in recruiting, no?

The main issue right now is that there is so few recruits out there that at the D3 level, you basically are "creating" athletes (either from single sport or simply non-athlete turned triathlete), and so they may or may not even have that drive or understanding of the championship picture. And that is the biggest hurdle to overcome, having a carrot of nationals or not may not even matter; it's still a roster management issue for many schools.

Maybe for the top D3 programs will start to be affected due to likely missing out on recruiting for "national championships", but the other 75% of the D3 schools, competing at nationals or not isn't even a recruiting point of view honestly (and I say that as a coach at a D3 that is one of the struggling programs).


ETA: But to look at it from another angle. When you become a ncaa championship sponsored sport, you now look more appealing to AD's and college presidents. So I don't necessarily think the sport could be stuck in the "1 all divisons national championship" for the next 30 years. I think it would actually accelerate more schools to picking up tri, which then would almost assuredly cause 2 national title events.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

LaSalle (A10 school in Philly) adding women's triathlon?