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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [pwai] [ In reply to ]
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pwai wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:


I don't see how ex-pros are any different from the rest of us.

Racing is fun!!

It's fun to race against the best of your category.
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I think the main annoying factor is not the "ex-UCI pro" part but the "ex-dopers" part, which still disturbs.
Jalabert was EPO positive in 1998, retrospectively tested in 2004. This became public later on (2013 I think).
Vino had to justify relations with Fuentes and Ferrari, and was convicted in 2007 for blood doping.

Yeah I was pissed to have to stand on an awards stage next to Jalabert.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Here we go again with this.....

I don't understand why people get bent out of shape.

Ex dopers race and the reason they were able to get into a position to do PEDs is bc their engines are HUGE. Bigger and better than 99% of the people that have ever posted on ST and then they were able to dope.

If the majority of people whining about them racing even had a chance against them I could understand but the majority of people railing against it don't have the engine to be in contention with them, don't possess the bike handling skills to hang going downhill, don't possess the p/wt ratio to hang uphill and haven't put in the hours or time over the years to compete with them.

These two are probably around 5w/kg on the climbs even at their age bc they were 6.5+ w/kg when in full on pro mode. How many of us have 5w/kg hanging around in our back pocket at 50+.

These two were riding 800+ hours year for > 15yr and probably spent a good chunk of that at 1000+ h/yr. A well structured Ag athlete is in that 500-750h/yr range w/ a lot more life stress and a lot less recovery availability.

Some people have an abundance of genetic talent, some of those were further enhanced. some people have an abundance of time, some have both, some have none.

At the end of the day you have to go out and make YOUR best race happen regardless of who else is in the field or whom you're competing against.

I hear this sentiment but my belief, with triathlon, is that somebody without a ton of natural talent can get quite good at the sport by putting the hours in. Triathlon seems to reward the you get what you put in mindset more than a lot of other sports. I really believe that someone with average talent can put in the work required to turn pro. So that's why it irks me if someone with above average talent doped. Clearly someone without a lot of talent could dope too & could climb to a decently high level in this sport. Plus you reap the benefits of doping for years after. I don't think we should be tolerant to dopers. There are claims that there is a good amount of AG doping in the sport. I think sentiments like this normalizes it. I would like to see a more strict policy for those who are caught. The age group categories are large and diverse. There's always going to be people competing with varying levels of talent. Fine. What separates it for me is someone who decides to cheat. The clean talented person should win. The first clean talented or average talented person that finishes right behind one of these cheaters will never know if they actually would have been beaten if they had both done things the right way. The margins are thin in AG racing. Doping for years on the bike sets you up well in a sport where you spend a ton of time in the saddle.
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
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mattsurf wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
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There are a bunch of "purists" losing their shit over Lachlan Morton taking on some of the bikepacking courses and taking down records. He just took over a day off Mike Halls Tour Divide record and had to announce that he wasn't going for an official record due to being ineligible because of his film crew following him. Some of the folks don't like a Pro Tour guy messing on their bikepacking heroes.
Personally I think it is awesome.
Lachlan Morton completes Tour Divide route in 12 days, 12 hours, and 21 minutes - Velo (outsideonline.com)


I love what Lachlan is doing.

I also think that Christoph Strasser is brilliant, and love what he is doing in TCR, RAM etc, however, he had so much media attention, for much of TCR there was a car just ahead of him, when he stopped, there was a film crew in the supermarket, dot watchers were following his every movement - is it really that different to what Lachlan did on the Tour divide?

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I think there are a couple of reasons that Strasser gets accepted so easily, the first being TransCon is in Europe and the Euro's don't seem care as much about star power,associated media that comes with it.The cycling culture,all cycling,is ingrained in their culture so they have a different mindset.Strasser is seen also "as one of us" by the Ultra-cycling community and I liken him to Yiannis Kouros in ultra-running running where he is just in his own world and so different "rules" apply.You just have to say "Strasser" and the cycling world knows and adjusts the conversation accordingly.

In the USA and Canada (and to some extent here in Oz) all that stuff is more frowned upon and Lael Wilcox felt the ire of the purists when she had her film crew follow her for the Tour Divide a few years ago.It got pretty silly and you could see it play out in her documentary. Just stupid for my mind.

People get all tribal about their chosen sport,niche in that sport and/or their favourite athlete (think Lionel) and they will defend their "Tribe". You can see that it the undercurrent of comments when TransAm Bikepackers take on RAAM and vice versa. All this talk about one couldn't do the other. It is silly and is why I love that Strasser and Morton are doing what they are. The level of competition is rising dramatically with the inclusion of these guys in Bikepacking and the "old ways" of doing things in the Mike Hall era are coming to an end. We punters who are following the development of Bikepacking can learn a hell of a lot from what the elite cyclists are bringing in all aspects of that niche of unsupported cycle races.

To the topic at hand concerning Vino and Jalabert,during the coverage of La Vuelta here in Oz last night, Simon Gerrans was talking up Vino's recent Ironman age group win in Nice and told of training with him in the past. He mentioned that going for the "morning run" with Vino was hard as he left nothing out there and always pushed the pace,putting the hurt into everyone.He spoke very fondly of that time.I would be interested to know if, in triathlon, the Euro's are more "forgiving" of past dopers and Pro Tour guys in the age group ranks than the folks from the USA/Canada.
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Sep 14, 23 16:59
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:


To the topic at hand concerning Vino and Jalabert,during the coverage of La Vuelta here in Oz last night, Simon Gerrans was talking up Vino's recent Ironman age group win in Nice and told of training with him in the past. He mentioned that going for the "morning run" with Vino was hard as he left nothing out there and always pushed the pace,putting the hurt into everyone.He spoke very fondly of that time.I would be interested to know if, in triathlon, the Euro's are more "forgiving" of past dopers and Pro Tour guys in the age group ranks than the folks from the USA/Canada.


France & Jalabert situation :
1/ As a former worshipped champion, Jalabert is sort of untouchable in France and still receives tons of support and praise. He's still commenting the Tour de France every year on public TV. During triathlons, he's cheered like a half-god, gets a lot of positive attention from the speaker and the public, and you can hear "allez Jaja" everywhere along the run.
2/ There has been actually more coverage in the general media about Jalabert being "Ironman world champion" (of his amateur age group, not always mentioned) than about Sam Laidlow being the 1st french pro world champion.

Most people seem to be happy such a celebrity is racing alongside them. Some triathletes (me included) are uncomfortable with him winning his AG, but I think we are a minority. He doped, got caught, denied (using the "they doped me without me knowing, i didn't do it" strategy), lied, never apologized, said he doesn't regret anything, and of course never became a clear advocate of anti-doping.
Last edited by: pwai: Sep 15, 23 2:49
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Now, he trains like a mad man. I have rider friends in Monaco who say they see him more often than the riders. He is constantly on his bike. I suspect that has a lot more to do with his performance than a blood bag of the past. Some ex pro cyclists often have a LOT of time on their hands. This is a bigger factor than their past. Now, is he on a AGer special regimen ? That is another story and could have a lot more impact the the stuff 20 years ago.


Given how serious he is currently, why would you think he is not currently taking blood bags? Obviously he has the experience and expertise at it, and the Astana team medical resources at his disposal, and there is zero chance that autologous blood bag doping would get caught by WTC, so why would anyone think he is not currently doping? His morals have changed? He clearly is intensely serious about the competition, so I certainly wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he has suddenly decided to abstain from performance enhancing techniques that he has known his whole career.

Separately, whatever came of the Spanish cyclist who was caught doping and came over to triathlon and quite quickly became top of amateur field. He seemed to disappear as quickly as he came onto the scene. I remember at one Kona podium the second place finisher wore a DOPERS SUCK white t-shirt next to him. Who was that doper and what happened to him? Why'd he vacate the scene so suddenly?
Last edited by: kny: Sep 15, 23 8:33
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
marcag wrote:
Now, he trains like a mad man. I have rider friends in Monaco who say they see him more often than the riders. He is constantly on his bike. I suspect that has a lot more to do with his performance than a blood bag of the past. Some ex pro cyclists often have a LOT of time on their hands. This is a bigger factor than their past. Now, is he on a AGer special regimen ? That is another story and could have a lot more impact the the stuff 20 years ago.


Given how serious he is currently, why would you think he is not currently taking blood bags? Obviously he has the experience and expertise at it, and the Astana team medical resources at his disposal, and there is zero chance that autologous blood bag doping would get caught by WTC, so why would anyone think he is not currently doping? His morals have changed? He clearly is intensely serious about the competition, so I certainly wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt.

Let's just say I'm not nominating him as a candidate for sainthood.
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:


Separately, whatever came of the Spanish cyclist who was caught doping and came over to triathlon and quite quickly became top of amateur field. He seemed to disappear as quickly as he came onto the scene. I remember at one Kona podium the second place finisher wore a DOPERS SUCK white t-shirt next to him. Who was that doper and what happened to him? Why'd he vacate the scene so suddenly?


Here's a little background on that story:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/..._his_point_4440.html
Last edited by: ntl_tri: Sep 15, 23 9:38
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Re: Ex-UCI pros win AG's at Ironman WC Nice [pwai] [ In reply to ]
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pwai wrote:

France & Jalabert situation :
1/ As a former worshipped champion, Jalabert is sort of untouchable in France and still receives tons of support and praise. He's still commenting the Tour de France every year on public TV. During triathlons, he's cheered like a half-god, gets a lot of positive attention from the speaker and the public, and you can hear "allez Jaja" everywhere along the run.
2/ There has been actually more coverage in the general media about Jalabert being "Ironman world champion" (of his amateur age group, not always mentioned) than about Sam Laidlow being the 1st french pro world champion.

Most people seem to be happy such a celebrity is racing alongside them. Some triathletes (me included) are uncomfortable with him winning his AG, but I think we are a minority. He doped, got caught, denied (using the "they doped me without me knowing, i didn't do it" strategy), lied, never apologized, said he doesn't regret anything, and of course never became a clear advocate of anti-doping.



And Sam had to respond to some journalist putting them in the same basket:
https://www.trimes.org/2023/09/sam-laidlow-vs-jalabert/


Sam (translated by me): 'I appreciate the publication, but I don't want to be associated with someone who cheated in sport. I've worked way too hard for this to happen. He may be a great athlete, but we clearly don't have the same values'


Most of the comments I've seen following Sam's response are in support of him, and critisizing the media who try to 'ride' Jalabert's public notoriety, but also Jalabert for not being vocal about the smaller status of his win (age group, not overall) and having a big ego that he needs to feed.
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