Hey, I hear you, but private label manufacturing is not quite what I was discussing.
Yes there are distributors who do that, but we were (or I was) discussing the difference between cheap goods made abroad vs those that are MADE and manufactured domestically and that you can verify are.

Certainly some domestic companies muddy the waters through private label but this was not part of the discussion or would still fall into the produced abroad category.

Out of curiosity what is your professional expertise to call me poorly informed?

Pactimo
MAAP

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Totally understandable. I too get frustrated when I don't like to hear something. It's most of our human nature to resist ideas we don't like.

Doesn't make those opinions or ideas wrong, nor does it make your opinion or ideas wrong.
Your opinion is that $80+ jersey is bad value, I 100% recognize and understand your opinion. You are entitled to that and your opinion is absolutely not wrong, because it is yours built out of your experience.

Primal Wear usually has some on sale, that's what I buy.. very happy with all of mine.

I didn't get frustrated, I just ran out of fxcks.

You fail to realize that and are spreading your misinformation about workers in the US being treated fairly and nobody else in the world is treated fairly.
You fail to even try any of the brands I mentioned but condemn everything made anywhere else.

Are there problems, yes sure, they are everywhere, you just deny any that affect you.

So please direct your misinformed views away from me and toward the people that are buying your BS, my neighbor just handed me a fxck and now he's out too.

Ahh, yes, I did miss represent your comment with the word "frustrated", for that I'm sorry.

That saud, I don't understand where your hostile tone is coming from and again, for whatever is causing that, I am sorry for you, I empathize.

I am/was simply trying to have a discussion based around the initial prompt, I have in fact not spread any "miss information" except perhaps the one I referenced at the onset of this post.
Civil discourse of ideas is incredibly important, it saddens me when people can't engage in dialog in a productive manner.
I truly hope you have a good day and enjoy your riding in your jerseys, whatever ones you value, that is your prerogative as I said throughout this discussion.

I'm sorry for the people believing your misinformation. People are taken advantaged of all over the world, not just outside the US.

Stop replying to me and trying to make yourself look righteous, there are few people believing it.

Open you mind to many possibilities and see the world through other people's eyes, not just your narrow point of view.

I am absolutely open to seeing the world through other people's eyes.
Infant I would encourage you to take a breath and go back and read through our discussion if after doing so you still feel I am the one who has not freely admitted to other views and opinions I will gladly hear your critiques. But I have om many occasions acknowledged yours abd others perspectives as being whole valid and correct. Because perspective and opinion are very individual.

I am in no way trying to seem righteous, I am far from righteous and have no pulpit to stand on that is for sure. But, I do enjoy open and courteous discussion and can recognize when someone clearly just needs a hug.
So here is sending a hug my man. (Edit: or lady, didn't mean to assume, I certainly don't know you or your gender identity)
The world, and everyone in it isn't always out for a fight. I for one am not. Im just here to discuss

Just stop trying to make yourself look better.

We've wandered off topic so far just because you think everyone that buys from a lower cost place is buying from abused workers.
You refuse to admit it and made it justification for overpaying for products.
You believe that paying high prices in the US ensures workers are *not* being taken advantage of.
You believe that paying low prices some place else ensures workers are being abused and the products are sub-par.

This is misinformation at it's best, twisting low prices into cheap products and poor working conditions.

That fact that by your own admission, you haven't tried any of the products mentioned shows you don't know the quality of anything.

edit *not*

JaretJ, I am very sorry you feel all those things and got that from my discussion points, however I don't think any of that is an accurate representation of anything I have said at any point.
Again, I would encourage you to take a deep breath and go read through the conversation.

I have at no point said anyone buying lower cost items is buying from abused workers. In fact exactly the opposite is true. On multiple occasions I agreed with you and others that there exist good and bad actors in all places, across borders and across price spectrums.

I have also never said buying in the US ensures workers are not being taken advantage of. Again exactly the opposite is true, I admitted there are bad companies and actors in the US and all places. My purchases do not guarantee it, but I do buy from companies I trust, this is not a guarantee, but a hope on my part for ethical practices.

I have also never said that paying lower prices ensures workers have poor conditions or the like. I have merely contended that if we always search for the lowest possible price we will potentially lower the quality of most goods and increase the probability of less than optimal working pays and conditions.

I have at no point given anything but my opinion, so this can not be construed as mis information, but your misrepresentation or perhaps just a miss recollection of the discussion points could be viewed that way for sure (hence my corrections here)

Finally, I have at no point admitted I have not tried any of the brands mentioned. I did say I have brands I am loyal to, but I have lived a long and mistake filled life. Sometimes I have bought goods and paid for services I was disappointed by. But you live and you learn.

Again, I am all ears if you feel I did say or represent one of those things i encourage you whole heartedly to re-read our thread and point out where I did say those things with full contextual quotes so I can see my errors.

Final point I will dispel. I am in no way posting to try to make myself look good, who am i? Know one gives a rats ass who I am so what do I care what I look like on here?
I am simply a person having a conversation. I am not sure why you have taken some of my comments in such a contentious way or perhaps personally, but such is the problem of text based formats of communication, I have no control over how you interpret my words, nor do you have control over how I interrupt yours, but why I do know is it appears you have received my words wrong and I am very sorry for that. I hope your day gets better from here and I certainly hope you do not view everything as an adversarial interaction because I would imagine that could be an exhausting way to live.

I am not your enemy, I am simply a guy trying to chat.

Or, as Abraham Lincoln said "am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"

All the best

Everything to do with cycling is a rip off. Bikes being sold for $20k that have literally $200 worth of carbon in the frame and forks, cycling kit is no different. I will say the genuine team kit (Lampre) I have (got it 2nd hand) is still in great condition, 6 years down the track. Replica stuff lasted a few years and then was done, but it was cheap, so potentially worth it? Love my Cycology kit, but bit disappointed in the quality, the elastic on one of the tops has gone and the fabric on my bib has worn, people were complaining they could see my balls.... that hasn't happened with my Lampre kit, which is much older, but still going strong. A case of you get what you pay for? That said I'm never gonna pay $300 for a cycling bib.

On the one hand, STeveA is probably full of shit

On the other hand, if there had been a "Rock Against Sweatshops" Punk Rock show someplace, I probably would've played it

A Punk who no longer wears Chucks because Converse is a NIKE Brand and their sketchiness got to me [doping, sweatshops, releasing female athletes who dared to have children, and so on] is a rare thing indeed [I'm in VANS full-time for casual shoes]

****

I buy almost all of my casual clothes from Goodwill and such, not because I'm cheap or poor (I was poor once, believe me) but because I want to support their programs and initiatives

When it became clear in 2020 that I would be working from home for pretty much forever, I donated nearly all my dress shirts, slacks, ties, and suits to an org who "dress up" people coming out of homelessness and back into the workplace (who I found thru Back On My Feet) - I saved a few suits for funerals, because I had a feeling I'd need them, and I was correct

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Hi Rand, I'm not sure what I did to deserve you comment saying I am probably full of shit, but I'm sorry if I offended you as well for some reason?

On another note I wasn't part of the punk rock scene so your reference may fall a bit flat on my end, but I am sure even though I don't get the specific reference it is a fully valid input and opinion, thanks for your contribution.

You don't get to call me "Rand" yet - use me FULL username, please LOL

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Sorry RandMart, truly not sure what I did around here to create so much ire towards me. I did not know usernames worked like that. I have not been a fan of digital communications and perhaps this is a sign that at my age I shouldn't try to step outside my comfort zones.

Very sorry to offend

Post 10 (saying jerseys from China are cheap and brings domestic quality down)
If I ho buy a cheap jersey from China, that means a domestic company that focuses on high quality products makes less and thus might have to reduce the quality of their product.
The Chinese cheepo sees this and brings their quality down a bit more, not enough to make me jump back to the more expense domestic, but enough to make more or lower prices.
It's s viscous cycle of dragging down quality of consumer goods

Argue with my opinion all you want, it's still an opinion.


post 20 (implying if you buy from someplace cheaper is hurts our wages)
It's easy to say I need to stretch every dollar, but all that does over time is compound the problem, drag down domestic wages across the board and make it harder to afford everything.

post 26 (from your tone earlier this implies quality is high domestic and not other places)
I for one would gladly pay a little extra for a kit that gives someone else a good living wage AND moves us forward towards getting higher quality across the board.

I would argue the complete inverse, from an economics perspective the cheap overseas Ali express crap is grossly under priced and that is exactly the problem.
The dragging down of consumer expectations slowly takes us all with it.

post 31 (implies buying non domestic degrades quality)
Listen, it's fucking hard to skip put on the cheap thing and intentionally spend a bit more, but it's especially ially important with these nonessential goods otherwise we gradually degrade things to point where we can't even decide these to spend sbit extra on essentials like food and stuff for sear h of higher quality because we simply can't afford it anymore.

post 33 (implies US companies all pay a fair wage and nobody else does and somehow buying domestic makes better goods)
Money is a difficult thing for people to talk about, but the reality is, most if not all of us on this thread could spend a little extra to ensure someone gets good working conditions and a fair wage. The side benefit from a theory perspective is that we might all end up with higher quality goods in general.

post 39 (bad actors don't get return orders and are weeded out anyway no matter where they are from)
An informed consumer base voting with their dollars would/could weed out the bad actors and reward those who make good products with good practices.
The problem is, we the consumer are all so cost focused it is and endless race ti the bottom both domestically and internationally.

You seem to think that a high priced domestic company has good products and pays fair wages.
I have purchased from several high priced companies and have gotten crap
I know a few high priced companies that pay their workers crap

Hi Jaret,

Absolutely you are correct in post 10 my word choice was much to broad and did indicate all cheap jerseys from China. That was absolutely my mistake.

As for tge rest, as you clearly note in each one they "imply". Any implication from the contextual reading of something is an implication derived from the reader not the writer. That is a foundational concept of text communication.

Again, I agree with your context of post 10 that is correct. But as for the rest, I can in no way control how you interpret my words.
My words are my words, how you interpret them or what you feel Iimply by them iss up to the reader.
I did in fact not saying any of tge things you said I did in your previous post.

Once again, I don't know why you have so much hostility in you and why it is currently directed at me, but I certainly hope i am the only one you take it out on.

I love all the Rapha clothing. Super comfortable, looks great, lasts a long time. I know people like to make fun of the brand but I think it's worth the money.

Checkout The Black Bibs. Jerseys are about $40. Plenty good enough. Same with the bibs, which are little more expensive. Are high dollar Assos or whatever “better”? Sure - IME it doesn’t matter much, certainly not enough to justify the cost.

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*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"

This thread. Wow....

Perhaps to calm the thread down a bit I'd like some advice please. So one of the things I hate is scratchy neck when I'm cycling. Can anyone recommend at jersey without a tag on the neck. But then I alsoi like being able to hang it up to dry.

So if people can discuss the merits of hooked versus hookless jerseys for a bit that should help bring us all together....

Yeah it kind of went haywire.

You can get some nice jerseys for under$80.

I really like giordana and ale. FRC is a great cut and material. I've never bought one at MSRP. Bike closet, steep and cheep, eBAY etc. Most pieces I've bought have been under that $80 mark. No tags for the person who asked.

I too could care less if it's somebodies club or race jersey. If it's comfy it's fun to throw on random stuff. I'm more into he looks.

Eliel is also a nice gear. Can sometimes find them on eBAY. They used to have an outlet store on eBay and you could get great stuff for $20 +/-, but I'm not sure it's still in operation.

Same for Tri kits. eBay or Facebook buy sell groups. Have some great pieces. Spaero, WATTIE, ALE. Bought either new or barely used for under $100.

Anyway...not sure if you're willing to hunt, but it's a way to get quality stuff for a lot less.

This is changing quite quickly now. Brands are moving full frame production (even weaving carbon strands into sheets) back to Taiwan or moving to Vietnam.

At least you owned what you said, I can respect that.

I have no hostility, you became a drinking game a long time ago.

Most (if not all) of my jerseys have the size info printed inside = no tags; without looking, I'd say they're mostly Voler or Primal?

I use a clothesline to dry them in the laundry room - not a hook - then put them in the closet on a hanger

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin