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Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote
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Have been trying to use the race analysis function of BBS to see what power I would have needed to bike on par with the winner of my AG at IM Lanza. Something is definitely not quite right, this feels like one of these Zwift races were some people are pushing 9W/KG. Here is what I have done - feedback welcome, I must be doing something wrong:

- I biked 5'57, 203W AP, 218W NP. BBS gives me an average CDA of 0.34 which is bad, that said I had no disc wheel, a road bike front wheel (side winds - it helped on descents), and obvs there was a lot of climbing and sitting up

- The winner of my AG (45-49) biked 5'20. Now I am decent cyclist, have been in the wind tunnel and I have won and podiumed at other Ironman races but I can accept that maybe my choice of equipment wasn't ideal (so say CDA of 0.31 - 10% better), and maybe I could be a couple of KG lighter (my fat percentage must be 14%, I know it could be a bit lower)

- Still if I do that, I would have needed over 320W to match his time, according to the race analysis function of BBS. That is over 50% higher than my power on the day. To be clear I biked 2.9W/KG at 0.81 IF, this is telling me that I would have needed 4.6W/KG (at 0.8 IF that is an FTP of 5.75 - Pogacar's estimated FTP is around 6W/KG!). I remember Dan Plews in his course record at Kona biked 3.5-3.6W/KG

- My confusion is further compounded by the fact that the same guy who won my age group (45-49) reports in an interview of having finished 12th AG in Kona in 2022 with a bike time of 4'42 - for which I would only have needed around 3.1W/KGS - fully achievable for me on a good day.

Where are my calculation letting me down?

I suspect the BBS analysis function is just completely wrong. Even with 0.28CDA (impossible with all the climbing) and 5KG lighter (at some point you become a skeleton cam't be healthy), the required watts still make no sense.
Last edited by: ItaloBritt: May 19, 24 7:42
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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For a 180km course with 2400m elevation, doing 5:20 (33.7 km/h average) it's impossible to need 320w. I've never used Best Bike Split and the only CdA I get is from mywindsock, but that sounds more like ~250w at best.

BOP pros may have done 250-270 for 5:10 splits.

You should have been faster on 218w normalized. Maybe you went too easy on the climbs and didn't get speed in the descents despite the power.
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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Those average CDAs seem out of whack. A 0.34 is more a sit up/road bike position whichmaybe correct for the climbs. Granted they may be a large percentage of time on the course, but still....

It looks like about 10 guys went that fast.

I suspect your needing 320watts to go that speed is questionable.
Last edited by: marcag: May 20, 24 4:41
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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I would look at the splits from those around you (Strava? Usually in races I get “rode with” tags) and try to compare against previous races. I’d also look at multiple people at the front and see what I can glean from their Strava.

You said you’re not implying anything but the focus on one guy (including listing his back story) allows people to very easily infer the same thing. Perhaps rephrase the question:

Why was I so slow for this power?
Were my peers producing similar numbers?
Was the front of the race exceptionally different?

I have raced Lanzarote before and the wind is no joke. Plus it picks up as the day goes on so being slower is a compounding disadvantage. Additionally, the road surface is pretty slow in several places. I would suggest looking at the course settings on BBS for a start, then start making cohort comparisons.

After all that then you may find yourself in line with others and can really question the person you have in mind. Or you may find that you’re the exception and you’ve gotta investigate why - did you have a brake pad dragging? Other equipment selection?
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [Ing.] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense good answer thank you - I'll check splits and segments, it's the best way to go about it. I didn't think I was a lot slower than expected as my time came in within 4 mins of the BBS prediction. I am only just starting to suspect that their time analysis model works well to calculate local sensitivity (ie power 1-2% higher or lower), but anything more it goes completely astray. As I was thinking if that's the case then the pros, where the winner biked 4'50, would have had to average 500W or something, so it's clearly a case of incorrect calculations. Thinking differently, the time of the winner of the AG is 11% below mine, which isn't a lot, but BBS is telling me I need over 50% more power to achieve a similar time, which is absolute BS.
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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i would say there is not much difference between 4.42 in kona is about 5.20. in lanza 5.20 is a pretty good amateur bike split but not crazy i would say its about in the 3.4 watts per kg range. not knowing weight position equipemnt .
a good bike split in lanza is about 5.30 much slower is not really that great anymore but you had a good run .


haug was 5.17 y day and 4.42 2022 in kona. so thats rather similar
ps edited as i had initialy gotten haugs kona time wrong by 10 min
Last edited by: pk: May 19, 24 14:34
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [anakinpm] [ In reply to ]
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thanks I think it's pretty clear BBS is completely incorrect. Everybody's answers helped me address this. With a little bit more power I could actually bike 5'20, it's not as crazy as BBS implies.
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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done edited you are right thanks
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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You can easily find the power data of the winner of your AG in strava. He averaged 248W for the course with the NP around 270W I guess. These are good numbers but nothing crazy. He is a strong triathlete, very consistent and dedicated.

On Lanzarote it very much depends on how well you know the course, how well you manage the terrain, the weather - this year it was very friendly in comparison to other years I participated. There are lots of descents where you can win minutes by just staying more aero.

BBS predicted 7 minute faster split for me but I can improve a lot in bike handling and see the prediction quite accurate.

Слава Україні 🇺🇦✊
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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I concur with the others, you post reads like an accusation.

In any case I think you're missing one key element - that's the skill element.

Outdoor riding isn't just about watts and CDA, there's a large skill element.

Look at LCB when she did superleague - I'd wager her watts/kg was near the top yet she was slowest.

180k around Lanzarote a skilled rider will gain tens of minutes in a poor rider, same watts same CDA. Cornering speeds, gear changing etc. It all adds up.


Seems to me that you were beaten by better cyclists, there's not much to to understand.

The fact you don't even seem to consider that the skill is a factor makes me think this is probably the issue.

Good luck.
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [CreativeInkling] [ In reply to ]
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I was top 10 in Nice so your comment reads like a poorly informed one. And yes some people just go a bit too fast.

By the way my original post has been edited.
Last edited by: ItaloBritt: May 20, 24 14:47
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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ItaloBritt wrote:
By the way my original post has been edited.


It is quite hard for me to see what has changed. But the winner of your AG averaged 3.1-3.2W/kg overtaking you by almost 40 minutes. I do not take the absolute power here because the only almost flat section was an appendix on the way to Tahiche and back. The rest of the course were either uphills or downhills. So, my interpretation of the time difference (even taking into account around 10% average W/kg difference between you and the AG winner) is more technical than physical. A saw too much people with way higher expectations than they achieved on their first attempt on Lanzarote. Your AG winner is an exception of this rule but he has been on the island many times before, had training camps there and was in a very good shape on the race day.

Again, nothing personal - just my thoughts. I did the race 4 times and will be doing it again the next year.

Слава Україні 🇺🇦✊
Last edited by: oleks: May 20, 24 23:59
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [CreativeInkling] [ In reply to ]
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CreativeInkling wrote:
I concur with the others, you post reads like an accusation.

In any case I think you're missing one key element - that's the skill element.

Outdoor riding isn't just about watts and CDA, there's a large skill element.

Look at LCB when she did superleague - I'd wager her watts/kg was near the top yet she was slowest.

180k around Lanzarote a skilled rider will gain tens of minutes in a poor rider, same watts same CDA. Cornering speeds, gear changing etc. It all adds up.


Seems to me that you were beaten by better cyclists, there's not much to to understand.

The fact you don't even seem to consider that the skill is a factor makes me think this is probably the issue.

Good luck.

Feel better now?
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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I did 5:13. 275w NP and 255 avg. at 83kg it’s 3,3w/kg. First 140km was around 10w higher NP given the profile and wind on the course.

From Strava segments I see I lost easily 3-5 minutes on steeper downhills to top guys given I took those relatively easily. I had no recon and my memory didn’t serve well from race 2 years ago.

Uphills and strong headwind 300-320w, flats 260-270.

What I wonder is what does it take to ride 4:35??? 😳😳
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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If you need one more datapoint:
9 years ago on a pretty windy (even by Lanzarote standards) day,
275W NP (259W AP) was good for 5:36 at 85kg
This was with a rear disc and a 90mm front wheel.

It's a fantastic race isn't it? If I ever come out of retirement, it would be for another go at Lanzarote...

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
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Re: Hey ST - help me reverse engineer the bike split of my AG winner at IM Lanzarote [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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Can't comment on the 45-49 guy but I can give you my numbers for context as I raced in Lanza as well. I rode 5.14 which was quickest in 40-44 at 269W normalised and 76kgs = 3.5w/kg. Average was 249. I used a P5D with deep front and full disc rear, my set up is reasonably clean and it's pretty much the same set up as I'd use for a flat race except I used an aerohead helmet without visor for cooling so I probably lost a few watts there. It sounds like your wheel choice wasn't ideal. Did you vary the power much ie. push harder on the climbs and headwinds and ease off on the tailwind sections? For my average I was hitting the climbs at around 300-310 and sailing the fast sections at 230 or lower if possible.

I know from speaking to a couple of the pros and faster age groupers that were in the range of 280+ normalised and mid 60 kgs = 4.4 ish for a 4.55 ish ride. The winner Kenneth Vandendriesche also publicised his data on insta (4hrs 50, 270AP, 286NP, 65kgs) and I think his was a fairly solo ride as he didn't swim in the pro pack
Last edited by: Dan The Man: May 24, 24 1:23
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