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Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals
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nanban_ronin
Apr 15, 24 10:57
Post #1 of 9 (529 views)
I'm seeking some advice or feedback on how to structure my training for the next 20 weeks. I am doing a marathon in 14 weeks and 70.3 in 20 weeks and ideally would like to do well at both.

My goals:

1. In 14 weeks - BQ at a hilly marathon on 7/28/24. 3:05 is the BQ time for my AG, but last year's qualifiers had to be >5min faster than the cutoff time due to high numbers of BQ applications.
2. In 20 weeks - increase bike fitness for a 70.3 (9/8/24). Improving my bike time is where I am likely to see the biggest improvement in my 70.3 time.

I would love to improve my swim, but I don't think I can dedicate additional pool time beyond 2-3x/week.

My constraints:

1. Starting in 5 weeks: traveling for 10 days in mid-May, so will primarily run during that time.

Current plan:

Weeks 1-5: Bike training block (2 workouts, 1 long ride, 1-2 EZ rides) + 3 runs (2 EZ, 1 long run, progressively increasing mileage) + 2 swims
Weeks 5-6: Traveling, primarily running 5-6 days/week
Weeks 7-14: Run block (2 workouts, 1 long run, 1-2 EZ days) + 2 bike days (1 EZ, 1 long ride) + 2 swims
Weeks 15-20: Triathlon training (3 runs, 4 bike rides, 3 swims)

I've also considered continuing hard bike training or just general triathlon training for the full 20 weeks, making sure to do longer runs necessary for marathon and hoping my current run fitness gets me that BQ time in 14 weeks.

About me:

AG

35-39

Last 70.3 race (Oceanside 1 week ago, 4/4/24):

Swim: 40m
Bike: 2:50 @ NP 189w (2.78w/kg)
Run: 1:22 (6:18/mile)

Marathon PB (from June 2022, only marathon ever)

2:50 (at an altitude of 4500ft [not acclimated]. Training plan - running 3-4x/week, swim/bike both 2x/week)

Current bike FTP

215w (3.16w/kg)

Current Garmin Vo2 estimates:

Bike: 56
Run: 61
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [nanban_ronin] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn
Apr 15, 24 11:50
Post #2 of 9 (507 views)
I've always put a 70.3 run around open marathon pace. I would say that you could go sub-2:45 or so. A 2:50 @ altitude is definitely worth something close to that. You should BQ no problem. What you've outlined looks pretty good to me. Running comes with the biggest injury risk so it's hard to run the miles required for a marathon & do much else. I think you check off the BQ & then ramp up the true tri training. A couple maintenance swims/bikes each week in marathon training. Then get consistent after you race. Think you're right that there's more reward for whatever biking you can do. You could take 20 more min off of your bike. You probably have to swim 4-5 days/week (15k-20k) for a couple years to swim sub-30. Focus on the bike. Once you've done the marathon you can get in some good swim/bike quality. With 10ish sessions/week you don't really have to do a ton of junk miles/truly easy sessions. Think the outline looks pretty sound.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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nanban_ronin
Apr 15, 24 22:34
Post #3 of 9 (425 views)
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and encouragement! I never thought about 70.3 running pace to roughly equating marathon pace. I don't know if I can take 20 min off my bike with a 5 week block; that might have to come during the winter. But I might consider dropping a run workout for a bike workout during my marathon build so I can keep some momentum towards building better bike fitness.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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waverider101
Apr 16, 24 0:15
Post #4 of 9 (410 views)
"With 10ish sessions/week you don't really have to do a ton of junk miles/truly easy sessions."

I need recovery and slower sessions, or at least sessions with a very long introduction and warm up, when I am at 12-15 hours.

If I wanted to improve my bike I would not be driving my car anywhere. Commute everywhere on bike as much as possible plus some sessions.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [nanban_ronin] [ In reply to ]
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cp10
Apr 16, 24 13:14
Post #5 of 9 (309 views)
I've done the opposite with the tri first and marathon 6 weeks later. I think it's really tough to get the most out of both races doing the marathon first. Recovery timeline will vary person to person, but I'm destroyed after a hard marathon. Soreness for me goes away in 3-5 days, but it takes me more like 2-3 weeks for my legs to start feeling "normal" again. I wouldn't count on gaining all that much fitness in the period in between the two races.

70.3/IM training can get you in really solid marathon shape alone. If it were me, I'd approach it like training for a 70.3 with longer long runs once you get within the last 2 months before the marathon. I'd try to keep 3x swim/bike for as long as possible, can lower the intensity on the bike as needed to compensate for the increased run load. Recover hard after the marathon and start getting some super easy swims/bike in that first week after. Then it's more about maintenance and getting some 70.3 race pace type workouts on the swim/bike in the last few weeks. Run fitness will be there for the 70.3, so less is more and would err on the side of recovery there.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [waverider101] [ In reply to ]
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nanban_ronin
Apr 16, 24 16:28
Post #6 of 9 (278 views)
waverider101 wrote:
"With 10ish sessions/week you don't really have to do a ton of junk miles/truly easy sessions."

I need recovery and slower sessions, or at least sessions with a very long introduction and warm up, when I am at 12-15 hours.

If I wanted to improve my bike I would not be driving my car anywhere. Commute everywhere on bike as much as possible plus some sessions.

I've honed in on 2-3 workouts/week, everything else at Z1 or Z2, with some harder efforts sprinkled in my long rides/runs in my initial build phase.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [cp10] [ In reply to ]
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nanban_ronin
Apr 16, 24 16:37
Post #7 of 9 (272 views)
cp10 wrote:
I've done the opposite with the tri first and marathon 6 weeks later. I think it's really tough to get the most out of both races doing the marathon first. Recovery timeline will vary person to person, but I'm destroyed after a hard marathon. Soreness for me goes away in 3-5 days, but it takes me more like 2-3 weeks for my legs to start feeling "normal" again. I wouldn't count on gaining all that much fitness in the period in between the two races.

70.3/IM training can get you in really solid marathon shape alone. If it were me, I'd approach it like training for a 70.3 with longer long runs once you get within the last 2 months before the marathon. I'd try to keep 3x swim/bike for as long as possible, can lower the intensity on the bike as needed to compensate for the increased run load. Recover hard after the marathon and start getting some super easy swims/bike in that first week after. Then it's more about maintenance and getting some 70.3 race pace type workouts on the swim/bike in the last few weeks. Run fitness will be there for the 70.3, so less is more and would err on the side of recovery there.


I agree, I don't think I'll be gaining fitness after the marathon and my plan is to recover and then do one race-specific block, similar to your suggestion.

What I've read is that marathon success correlates more with weekly mileage and less with the length of a weekly long run, so I am inclined to ramp up the mileage leading up to the marathon. But I've definitely considered just doing a 70.3 plan and a longer long run over the next 20 weeks. I think I would have done this if I didn't have my dual goals of improving my bike fitness and BQing, and was just focused on merely finishing the two races.
Last edited by: nanban_ronin: Apr 16, 24 16:37
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [nanban_ronin] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn
Apr 17, 24 5:01
Post #8 of 9 (202 views)
Yeah just using 20min to show where the gains can be made. Not meant to be literal but you're a strong runner. I don't think a safe BQ should be much of a problem for you so any extra time on the bike will only help your 70.3 chances. I've found 70.3 run pace & open marathon pace align well. There's a pretty good chart on one of these threads but 1:22 @ Oceanside tells me you can run sub-3 np.
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Re: Balancing Marathon & Tri Goals [waverider101] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn
Apr 17, 24 5:07
Post #9 of 9 (193 views)
Yeah, again, not meant to be literal but you can stick some sort of quality in most sessions with the proposed plan. You can aim for a little less overall volume & up the quality a touch or do a good amount of volume & maybe scale back the quality in some areas. I liked this interview on Scientific Triathlon where a Polish coach talked about training Kona qualifiers. Their athletes averaged 13-14 hours/week over the 6 months before qualification. I think sometimes we overcount hours or do a high # of hours over a small # of weeks & forget where our averages live. Consistent 13-14 hour weeks can get you very fit. Kind of the ballpark OP is talking about on 10 sessions/week. The coach talked about being able to up the bike intensity a touch because 1) injury risk isn't as high on the bike & 2) the overall volume allows for it. When OP turns to triathlon training the 4 bike days can all be pretty hard, provided the rest of the training makes sense. They can already run well. 1 run session/week is plenty to maintain.
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