Dan,

1st, pricing a fit over $100 for something that will likely take an hour or so is outrageous. Most physicians dont make this much money, and their invesment is much higher than that of a fist camp (12 years of school at 5000x4+15000*8 here in canada.)

For me to pay over $100 US for a fit, that is almost $160 CDN. I have a friend who has been practicing medicine for 28 years, and doesnt make that much money for the same amount of time.

You are telling me that going to a camp for a weekend justifies charging this amount of money for an hour or so of labour? Hell, if i can get away with that, sign me up right now, ill drop out of school and become a professional fitter.

That said, it is a commodity in demand. Prices will be jacked up because of supply and demand. Its like the comment on the Renn vs. Zipp discs, and their 800-900 dollar price difference. They arent that different in construction, yet the price difference is outrageous. Thats because people will pay that. I am sure that Renn could charge upwards of 600+ for their disc, and sales wouldnt drop very much, if at all.

I think if you realistically look at the time that it takes to do a bike fit, and the experience that you need in order to do a "professional" fit, and compare it to other jobs with comparable experience, you will find that charging $100+/hour is outrageous.

The average salary of a new University graduate is $30000 out of school. This person (in canada at least) has spent over $25k on school, plus many many hours working and studying to make this measly amount of income. If you were to bill $100/hour for bike fittings, you would be looking at an income of 6 figures. The time that it takes in hours of work are probably similar.

Or another comparison. The highest paid nurses in canada with a univeristy education and over 20 years of experience make just over $35/hour. Compare this to someone who has taken a weekend long fit camp, and has been fitting bikes for a few years. There is no valid comparison.

your assumption that people will pay outrageous prices for fits does not apply to everyone and realisitcally, not even most of the people in triathlon. I also dont think that paying that much money for a fit is justified, unless possibly you are a pro athelete.

Just my $.02


-Kevin

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Dan,

Are you planning on having camps on the east coast?

Kevin, I'm not rolling in money, but I've already paid over $100 twice for a fit on a tri bike that I ordered over the phone using the "give me all these different body measurements" approach. I'd gladly have paid $200 when ordering the bike if I could have been assured I was getting the right bike & the right fit. $200 barely buys me a car tune up & I spend a lot more time on my bike!

My problem is I suspect that if I went to a third highly regarded fitter I'd get my position changed again. From the casual triathelete's perspective, bike fitting seems to be a black art. I'd welcome an industry standard IF (big if) it would result in a recognized group of experts who had discovered a consistently correct method of fitting individual with varying physical traits and goals.

My comments:

1) I agree that a common method of standardization of fitting technique measurements is a good thing, although probably it will be very difficult to get any agreement with how bike manufacturers are willing to measure their frames.

2) A given is that FIST is a scientifcally valid method of doing bike fit and offers certification to pro bike fitters(and also interested individuals outside the industry) at a national or international level. This is a very good thing for the Joe Average AG tri-geek. However, unless proven beyond doubt, the FIST method shouldn't be held up as the only way of doing things any more than 78 degrees should be held up as the only way of riding. The are no doubt other ways of doing things that can get to the same destination. Let FIST speak for itself. If it's that good we will follow. No need to trash the other guy.

3) If there is any weakness in the FIST approach(as I understand it), then I have to agree with Gerard when he posted that he prefers to get his fitting with a PT or someone else with anatomical/biomechanical training because of certain musculoskletal problems he suffers from. This could also be done by a kinesiologist or chiropractor, etc. It's fine to plot positions based upon measurements, but there are people with certain musculokeletal conditions for which the general rules do not apply. Read my post today on the woman with the scoliosis/Harrington rod. Other problems can be physiological/anatomical short leg lengths, hypo or reversed cervical lordosis, muscle flexibility irregularities, etc. These people generally can not and should not ride in an aggresive position. No cookbook technique system will work for every individual but a good system approach would likely work for 90% of the general triathlete population, but for a minority of others it won't. Most pro bike fitters would be unfamiliar with biomechanical screening techniques unless they've had some additional form of training in this area.

4) It probably wouldn't be that hard if you consulted with someone trained in this area to come up with a basic standardized biomechanical screening test that could be taught to pro bike fitters. They would check flexibility, measure neck ranges of motion, assess leg lengths, assess foot rotation, etc. and suggest possible fit implications because of this. This could then be added to the course or offered as an extra supplement.

5) I'd love to take the course myself sometime. Just gotta somehow justify it since I don't work in the industry.

Just my $.02.

"if you KNEW that your position would be fixed you'd not balk at a higher price, because the hours you spend riding in an uncomfortable or slower position are worth a LOT more in aggravation or misery costs than the price of a good fit"

______________

That's the key - if you KNEW. How after a FIST fit would I KNOW? Does FIST incorporate computrainer or wattage to show me that I'm better off? I can easily tell the comfort in just a few hours of riding - but what did it cost me in speed, or power or aerodynamics - or can I have both comfort & speed - and what about ability to run afterwards. If FIST can quantify these things - then it would certainly be worth more.

I think you should change your perspective when comparing what people make and how much they are worth. A better way to do things would be to look at yearly salary and overhead. I doubt if Tom D. or Dan E. or anyone else would make as much as a doctor or a lawyer per year by doing fittings, even if they did charge $350, I could be wrong, but it's definitely a more valid comparison than per hour. I may make $1000/hour, but it doesn't put diddly squat on the table or cover my expenses if I only work 1 hour per year. If these guys provide a good service, that's hard to come by, they should be able to live without starving. They have overhead, such as simply covering the costs of learning how to do this right. Bottom line is they have to make a profit big enough to survive, otherwise it's not worth doing.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

I don't think we can compare people who fit bikes to people in other professions. At least not here in the good old USofA. It's all about supply and demand. If I owned a bike shop, I'd hang a sign out in front that said "Bike Fittings-$200" If I didn't get anyone to fit, I'd drop my price. If I couldn't fit people in for a month because I had that long of a waiting list, I'd change the sign to "Bike Fittings-$250".

I also think the price will be regional. If there are 5 guys in my town that are great fitters, I'm going to pay less. (Unless they are price gouging, but that's another post.) If there is only one, well, I'll pay a premium.

I also think that hopefully I only have to have it done once is a factor. With most professions I'm paying for a service over and over again.

Now I'm starting to ramble. So I'll stop here.

Jeff

Kevin,

First off, if you're worried about money you should have gone to Western, but that's another thread, and a joke.

Second, I agree with you. The prices being tossed around are ridiculous. But look at the bikes people talk about on this board. The prices are wacky. Thousands of people will spend this much or more on a fitting in the hopes that it will give them an extra 3-4 watts or whatever to brag to their friends about. These people are willing to pay and heck, if it makes them happy why not let Tom, the Dans and others pocket some extra cash. From what I hear, few have become filthy rich running a bike shop.

People who deserve to be charged through the nose are those who scour E-Bay or mail order places for a sweet deal on a bike and take it in to the shop to get retrofit. They are paying cash for a service which in most cases would have been included in the shop's margin when you bought the bike. Support your LBS.

Notice that you , cerveloguy and I (all Canucks) are laughing pretty hard about the prices here. I thought our economy was supposed to be the hot one these days...

i have a question for "Kevin_Queens." you're in a wintery area, and i imagine you can't yet ride on the road. when will you start riding? what month? and how much, in hours, will you ride per week from then on, more or less?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Does FIST incorporate computrainer or wattage to show me that I'm better off?"

it can incorporate wattage, but not to show you that you're better off. one of the areas in which FIST delves is in paraphernalia, and what the use of it gives you and what it doesn't. the short answer is, yes, FIST covers the use of a computrainer as a fitting aid. but, FIST also tells you what a computrainer WON'T do.

you might think, hey, i'll ride at 74 degrees, then 80 degrees, both rides at a constant resistance setting (CT's ergometer mode) and check my heart rate during both sessions. the lower the heart rate, the more efficient the position. but in real life the CT won't demonstrate that. you won't see a variance in your heart rate for reason we explain in the FIST workshop. on the other hand, the CT is valuable for two reasons:

1. it allows you to ride under load, and it is recommended that the fit session take place on a fit bike outfitted with a resistance function (like a computrainer), or on your own bike if it's to be fitted with different components and positions as the session progresses. the load ought to approximate real life conditions, and one can extrapolate, or at least take an educated guess, at a resistance that approximates riding at the subject's AT, or ironman pace, whatever. the CT allows you to fix the resistance at that watt setting.

2. for a variety of reasons which i won't go into now, the spinscan feature ought to show a power wave of different amplitude after a proper tri bike fit versus the wave exhibited off a road bike fit.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

first of all - dan said 50 -75... where did you get 100?

second - that is not unreasonable as a value. in a free market... pricing is based on supply and demand, vaue, and cost plus margin. compareing to non-related services is silly.

third - when i find myself reacting negatively to price... it is usually because of unrealistic expectations, or i am cheap, or i am not prepared (it is not in the budget)

fourth - renn is cutting cost by reducing service and by chpopping a layer out of the distribution channel. there is also very little r&d late in the development curve.

fifth - i know plenty of folks from high end carpenters to photographers who charge more than that per hour - and with out a college degree.

This is a one time consultation and should be charged at a higher rate. Realistically you will probably see shops throwing it in as a loss leader when they sell a high end bike. Most shops already view mechanical service as a loss leader (read: no profit) At that point the reason to be ceritfied is soley to show some assurance of quality.

You're totally right Jeff. It's a market based economy. I also like your point about prices also being regional. I make a lot less money living here in the rural boonies than if my office was in Silicon Valley or Manhatten. But then my house costs a heck of a lot less also.

If a fitter can get $350. for a fitting then by all means go for it. I just don't think that in most areas this is a reasonable price to charge based upon local economies.

I don't think you can look at the fit as something that comes with a normal billable hourly fee. That is what MDs get for seeing patients. When they actually perform surgery, the cost is alot higher, in order of many thousands of dollers and up. That is what the bike fit is analagous to, surgery on your position. It is charged a flat rate as a service performed. You don't pay the cardiologist 10000 if it only takes him 3 hours to do the bypass surgery and 15000 if it tkaes him 3.5. The same holds true for the bike fitter.

tommy

I live in the boonies but quite close to Kevin. It's a high of -14 C(-3 F) today with a low tonight about -24 C(-10 F) tonight. I have tomorrow afternoon off and will take my dog with me for a cross county ski for a couple of hours in the forest trails near where I live. The air is so crisp and clean in these cold temps and the scenery is quite beautiful. Couldn't live where you do in a desert. Tried it in New Mexico for awhile and it drove me nuts without forest, lakes and a change of season. Just thought it was too boring without the extreme variation of climate.

To answer your question our bike season starts about mid April or so, when we begin our first group rides. From about mid May to mid October is the peek season. This continues thru until about mid November when it starts to get cold again. In the early/late parts of the season we wear tights/gloves. Our summers are quie hot and humid in July/August. Winter month riding for all but the hardiest is on the trainer, although I do know a guy who commutes to work on his bike every day of the year regardless of the weather

Slowman,

How might John Cobb's method of fitting be compared to FIST? Generally the same or very different?

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ShaRRky

Ms. Kansan, -dan said those of you that only expect to pay 50-75, insinuating that the price should be much higher than that. Also, the talk on the other threads have been around "150-200" - Tom Demerly.

I didnt mean to open up a huge can of worms and disagree with everything that dan said. I was trying to point out that the cost seemed quite extrmeme if the sport is a hobby, or something to do, and not the major component of your life (ie pro, semi-pro, elite age grouper, etc)

I am part of the university team down here. When i talked to a few people and we found that the price for a bike fitting using power, computrainer, etc, along with years of background, in kingston was $85 Cdn, most people hit the roof. They thought it was outrageous. In our league (series, whatever you want to call it) there are around 200 athletes, many of which either compete at the elite level, or could if they wished. (one guy i run with runs a 15:30 5k, and his swim is pretty impressive too, i havent seen him on the bike yet), and yet i can assure you that many of them have never been professionally fitted, or would think about paying the money any time soon, (with the exception of a few "bulldog" athletes from hamilton, and one guy from our team who is a competitor at Jr. Nationals)

I consider myself average. I think i spent more than average on my bike, which in hindsight i hope pays off. Paying 150-200 US for a bike fit, plus travelling costs to a person like me sounds very high, and slightly unessecary.

I had a pretty sweet job this year, i was working at the hospital, making $14/hour, which for me was awesome money. It would take me 2 days, not including tax deductions to afford the fit alone, not including travelling costs.

I realize that Triathlon isnt a poorman's sport, but as there is talk of opening up the sport to a younger crowd, trying to get more media coverage and extend the demographics of those who do the sport, i personally dont think that charging this much money for something so "essential" is going to encourage growth.



In reply to your question dan, as cervelo guy said, there is still TONS (and i mean tons, like 4-5ft piles on the side of the road) here, and it was -15C yesterday, with windchill, somewhere around -20-25. We have an outdoor triathlon in march as the championships to the university series. I most likely wont head outside until april. I am trying to spend a few hours on the trainer every week, but with class and homework, it becomes tough. When school ends and summer starts, probably 6+ hours/week. It isnt a lot compared to some, but its a lot i find for me.

I am trying to justify paying for a bike fit, and as you stated, i basically want to know why i am paying what i should pay, what i will get out of it. How do i know that i am getting the "best" fit at a FIST certified place, when i could go somewhere else and possibly get it for much cheaper. I most likely will take the trip to T.O. to see dan at enduro sport. From what i have been told, his price is $70CDN, which i find reasonable, esp. if it does improve my splits and comfort on the bike. If his price all of a sudden skyrockets to $100-200+, i may rethink this, and find somewhere else that can do it cheaper, and maybe just as well.

I was going to write earlier that with the license # of CFU thing, they are centrally regulated by a board or something like that, (and i think government recognized??) whereas bike fitting, if i saw FIST certified and HADNT read/heard about either you or slowtwitch, i wouldnt know what the hell it meant, and comparing their prices to those of other places, probably would wonder what the heck is up with the price (assuming that the FIST price will be in the range that was quoted earlier, and on other threads.)

That may be the solution... a standardized fitting method, employed by EVERYONE: bike shops, companies, etc. However, i dont think it will happen overnight, and it wont be easy to achieve. Until that time comes, and hopefully a standardized price can be agreed upon that is reasonable to all involved, people will continue to play the market to see what it can bear, and average people like myself will continue to bitch about high prices. If i cannot be assured of some major benefit to going to a FIST certified place, or any other place for that matter charging large sums of money, i probably will try and find somewhere cheaper, or someone who gives a guarntee on their work, ie, 1 year trial period type thing.

Dan, you said that the goal of FIST was not to drive the prices of a bike fitting higher, but already it has seemed to have done that. Tom, who was talking about charging approx. $75 in past weeks is now talking about $150-200. I have to ask the question, by being FIST certified, who are you trying to help, the bike shop owner so that they can improve profits by allowing them to charge more money, or the people who ride the bikes by giving them a good service at a reasonable price? You stated that both Dan and Tom probably didnt have to be at the camp, they already had the knowlege that you could have given them, and both their rates i though were reasonable ($70CD & $70US). If their prices now skyrockey and double or even triple, then i dont think FIST was a success.

Ill stop rambling now.

-Kevin


P.S. I understand that a M.D. and Bike Fitter should and do bill differently, i was merely trying to make a comparison to the rates that were charged by different professions with different levels of skill.

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Discussion of economics and including John Cobb in the mix is interesting. I had John paint my bike and then do a fitting a few years back. Total bill was $200. Most striking about the fit job was while the fit was ongoing UPS arrived with a large box that turned out to be an autographed yellow jersey from Lance Armstrong thanking him for his help.
Latest catlog quotes $300- $1500 for a paint job and fitting is anywhere from $200 on up depending on the venue.
My fit was great as was the paint job, however now because of the reputation, my bill could be in excess of $1000 for the same services. I truly doubt that the quality would be different (already excellent) only the rep of the fitter. Much to be said for a standardized fit philosophy and pricing according.
Also met Dan in Austin many years ago when he did the QR road shows, the sessions on fit and bikes in general reflect an evolution into the sophisticated approach (my uneducated view) now known as FIST. My next bike (Yaqui Marila DL) will be sure to incoporate the FIST approach.

Thanks,

fal7

"How might John Cobb's method of fitting be compared to FIST?"

i don't know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

okay, let's assume, then, that the snow will melt and that you'll be on your bike in, say, mid april. you appear to be a good candidate for this. i'd like to know, for an inquiry i'm conducting, whether you'd be willing to voluntarily stay off your bike entirely, no racing, no training, indoors or out, for two months, starting april 15 and going through june 15.

what i'd like to know is, in american dollars, what might i have to pay in order for you to do that? and i'd like to know how many hours a week you'd normally be intending to ride during that time.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If you go to the FIST dealer info on this site, you will read the following.

Chapter 6. (5:15PM to 6:00PM) What are the economics of tri bike-fitting? How does this differ from performing a road bike fit? What will the market bear? How is this best executed?

I think that FIST is definitely an attempt to standardize fit in the industry, and in some sense dan's efforts are admirable because no one else really seems interested. However, I also feel that the camp cannot help but be helpful to the shop in terms of being able to charge more by calling themselves "certified". For example, I set up a new bike shop, I go to fist, and I am certified. Now I can market myself as a fit "expert", but I don't know very much more than I did after reading this site/bicycle sports site in detail. Something to think about, anyway.

Honestly, I was able to set myself up quite well using a video camera, tripod, and a bunch of internet printouts. I look precisely like many of the pictures I have seen called examples of "good fit". The videotape shows that I do not rock or bob improperly. This cost me exactly nothing.

As far as a "science" of fit, I respectfully request that people look up Keith Bontragers (who has a good science background) paper on fit. His point: the various fit systems are innacurate in different ways because they all make assumptions that do not apply to to all people. For example, the idea of knee over pedal spindle has no basis in biomechanics...it just so happens that most people will do alright in roughly that position. More food for thought.

Philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Dan,

For me to do that, you would have to cover the costs of my "big" race on July 6th ($250 CDN), + the additional pains of sucking @$$ in that race as well. (Probably a new set of zipps or hed's or something along those lines (dont know exact $$$ figures)

I most likely wouldnt do it, unless there was a really really lucrative benefit. I have my first 1/2IM on July 6th (been doing sprints up till now) and i think i need to spend a lot of time on the bike in order to do well.

Im hoping to put 6+ hours until the end of april after the snow melts, then somewhere around 8-9 after i get back west and school is finished (end of april), and am trying to get 2-4 on the trainer right now (school makes things a little tougher).

Would i voluntarily stay off my bike... possibly, very unlikely, but possibly. If i spent the time running it might work, but there would have to be a real benefit to not train for that long on the bike.

Hope this helps,

-Kevin

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

well, here's what i'm getting at. when i press people on this issue, it's remarkable what a high price they put on their riding time. they usually say, "i wouldn't do that deal. there's no price." then i say, "how about a hundred thousand dollars?" they reply, "well, yeah, in that case, perhaps." to which i reply, "okay then, it's more than a thousand dollars, and less than a hundred thousand."

two months, that's usually worth about $20,000 on average (i've asked a lot of people this question). it seems like a lot of money. but then staying off the bike for two critical months is a very big sacrifice.

then you take the hours on the bike, say 30 hours a month, 60 hours total, divide it up, that's more than $300/hr. "actually," you might say, "i'd do that deal for $5000." okay, then it's $80/hr. either way, the price a person puts on his bike riding hours is very expensive, and it's always a HELLUVA lot more than the price someone puts on what he's willing to pay, per hour, to have himself fit properly on his bike.

personally, i put a VERY high premium on what my bike riding time is worth to me. that's why i'm willing to spend what it takes to have the right equipment under me, and by "right equipment" i'm almost NEVER talking about performance-based stuff, but comfort-based stuff. power and fitness equal, performance is measured by how much time you'll spend in a good aero position, and the right saddle, right cycling shorts, right aero bars, is key to that for me.

also key to that would be the position i'm riding in. before it was my business, i spent an AWFUL lot of time working on my position because it was so key to my misery index while on the bike.

i go thru this exercise with people to get them to remember why it is this is of interest to them. if i was to ask them about the price they put on a good fit 50 miles into a 70-mile ride on their tri bikes, the price is very high. when i ask them that question off the bike, as they're typing on their computers, all of a sudden the price goes down a bunch.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Man I couldn't figure out where you were going with this until you said how much would it cost, good one. I have to apply this to my field of work.

you could ask the same question about anything...
why didnt you spend the $xxxxx on a new car when your old one breaks down, etc

What i was trying to say in my last post, is that it is a hell of a lot of money to pay for a fit for an amateur athlete, esp. one who is MOP, or is on older equipment.

If i am riding a $500 CDN bike, and am new to the sport, or if i have a wife, 2 kids, a car with payments and a mortgage, $200 is a lot for me to spend in comparison to the other things in life for a bike fitting, when it could be achieved for cheaper.

By raising the prices so high, it doesnt encourage growth in the sport. You tell me this...what makes more money 20 fits at $50 a pop or 2 fits @ $200 each? I can almost guarntee you that if the price is lower and more reasonable, more people will stop bitching about paying for it and actually go and get it done.

Also, Dan, when you say that you are trying to put the best under you in terms of bike, etc. you are a kick ass athlete who HAS been at the top. Most of us havent, and will never get there. Its a little different in our shoes than in yours.



-Kevin

P.S. The difference a good fit makes might only be a 1 or 2 minute difference on your TT/Split time. Then you are looking at $200/minute...which is a lot more that the fit it worth!

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."