I imagine they were comparing themselves against the disc P5 and not the rim brake one. I also really want to see a comparison between all the new TT bikes.

Yeah, Kiley needs to do another crowd funded test
Not his first priority but would be good

Bikes included?

- Hanzo
- P5disc
- P3x
- new QR
- Argon 119
- new Trek Speedconcept
- specialized shiv tri
- Orbea Ordu

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

This is the secret to the cycling internet. I've been saying this for years...

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I think Dan referencing Linkdin and Giant sort of gets to the first principles.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The more I think about doing on of these the more I think it's an ok idea to find out which is The Fastest Bike yet it's a better idea to find out which bike(s) tend to do the better/best under a wide range of riders.

Doing a 1 off test tells you a ton about that rider, something about riders like that person but less and less as you get further away from that rider in morphology/positioning/storage carrying etc. The test we did with Kiley was awesome. Yet I see a test where each bike is set up for rider A then rider B as the way to go. Now you're looking at what does Bike A do under 4 riders when set up for them, or as close as each bike can be

Just need around $15k in funding plus bikes/riders. You work on those parts, I can get the tunnel time and map out how it could/should work.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

i'd go further yet. if it was me and i was deciding what bike i was going to buy, i would take all the bikes inside of aero acceptability (all the bikes that i felt were likely to get me to the finish of a race within, say .05 or 1.0 percent of each other), and i'd consider them all equal candidates. then i'd look at ease of travel, ease of tire change, tire width capacity, hydration and storage, lighting and electronics, ease of adjustment, what the pursuit position is like. then... i'd like at price, and whether i can buy the bike with the parts i want; or whether i have to buy the bike with a lot of parts i don't want that i have to sell or trade in. then... i'd see how i can get it. how does it convey to me and i what condition (built? built to fit? in a box?)

all that stuff has now become sufficiently important to me that i kind of count all bikes equal that meet an aero threshold. i reckon that the real truth - my truth - is pretty fungible above that line. since i can't really know whether a speed concept or a QR V-PR or a speedmax or a P5 disc or a ventum is the best bike for me, i would treat them as basically equivalent and my decision is now based entirely on these other factors.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

1% time (which it sounds like you mean) is a pretty big chunk of time (2.5-3 min for an IM). It translates to around 2.5-3% power or 5-10W for most (faster) people. Not a small difference if we're only looking at differences in the frame set - I would imagine only the very worst performing newer frame sets would fall outside that margin in most conditions. That difference is even big enough it wouldn't be too hard teasing out that difference with just a Garmin and a decent powermeter outside if one wanted to.

i agree with you. i absolutely wrote with precision, knowing what that time meant. here is why i wrote what i wrote:

1. once you get inside of a certain level of aero performance, i just don't have confidence in the data provided via aero testing for me. and i'm not doing that, "everybody is different" cop-out. i just suspect that if 2 different people get on 4 different bikes, and each of those bikes is set up to fit each rider specific to his or her fit coordinates, those numbers are fungible. look at it this way: what if you took a fork off one bike and put it on another. is it going to work? the bike makers themselves would scream at this, because they'd say, "we make the whole thing as a unit, and the fork integrates with the frame," and the handlebars, wheels, etc. how much more so would a different person impact the result of the entire system, if the person is 80 percent of the drag? therefore, there's a point where we're just inside the margin of error, and the margin is the body, and fit coordinates, the bars and hydration chosen, aerobar tilt, positional philosphy (as you and i have discussed), and that margin easily dwarfs (in my estimate) that .5 to 1.0 percent.

2. if i can't travel with the bike, then what good is the bike?

3. if i lose bunches of time in the descents because i'm afraid while on the pursuits, what good is the aero time i've gained?

and so on.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

FYI, in Argon's 119 disc tri+ whitepaper, they show less than 1 watt difference between the new bike and the previous (5 year old) bike.

They show less than a 2.5 watt difference with their next step down 117 bike.

Those numbers at 5h Ironman pace, ie 36km/h

I'll take everything on your list (travel....) over that 1 or 2 watt difference

I see what you mean, but think your margin is set high. If my back of napkins calculations are correct your window is around 0.006 m2. From what I've seen that would be a quite big swing from person to person for a bike. Not it can't happen, but I would say it would not be standard.

Not that the other things aren't important. Just that if that's the level of margin one considers to not be important, you should probably just buy a decent 10-15 year old bike with old school separate stem and bars to get your preferred pursuit position and use the savings for hiring someone to pack, send, and put back together your bike for the races ;)

Let’s say it was the old P5-6. What’s so wrong about that?? That bike is still super fast and I’ve actually heard from folks that have tested the p5d vs p5-6 and the p5-6 was actually faster.

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blog

if you look at some of the bikes in this article, what you're talking about is not that far off. i would opt for a new bike, but a bike that i can make *mine*. ergonomics (comfort), confidence (ability to go fast on turns, descents), and even just the ability to have the gears you want (esp on courses that have steeper pitches, like st. george), a couple of dozen little things conspire to make up the difference, and that assumes there is a difference.

and this doesn't even factor in the fact that i might be faster on a "slower" bike. i guess the example that comes to mind is wetsuits. the fastest wetsuit for the fastest swimmers is not the fastest wetsuit for swimmers a couple of tiers down, to the point where there is almost no correlation between the tier of the wetsuit and the price. the claimed speeds in wetsuits are fiction.

i'm just telling you what my instinct tells me. there's just too much squish in the calculus at that highest end and to your point i could easily see myself on a tri bike that uses a standard stem. in fact, i spend a lot of money on a road bike frame simply because i wanted a high-end frame that allowed for a standard stem and didn't have the hydraulic lines running through the stem. old school motif, but a very modern bike. a modern bike that i could make my own.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Looks like they had someone at Supacaz come up with the graphic designs. That thing is begging for some Supacaz Star Fade bar tape.

I think that was his point, that this bike is not any faster than a 10 year old bike. The addition of disc brakes has not helped things on the aero front. Engineers are having to do some serious acrobatics to even get close to the older bikes. Whenever I get an itch for a new bike I just look at data like this and keep my p5.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

have you found a compatiable hydration system for Hanzo yet ? PLZZZ HELP!!( ALSO NEED A BENTO BOX)

Not trying to be a jerk, but Factor has a solution for those that want a Factor TT bike with all the “tri” things like a bento or hydration system - it’s called the Factor Slick.

Best bet for hydration for you would likely be an XLAB Torpedo Versa system - it has a base plate that straps/zip ties in between the aero extensions. I’m sure they sell just the plate. Or go old school and just zip tie a bottle cage between the extensions.

You’re out of luck on the bento. Only options would be to get one that velcros to the top tube but please please don’t do that to a Hanzo.

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___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.

 

Yes it’ll work on the flat extensions

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___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.

Unfortunately, Factor did not put storage bosses on the top tube of the Hanzo. That said, we make a series of bentos that use our exclusive and effective ZeroSlip mounting system, and they fit this bike very well. Our two larger ZeroSlip Speedpacks (the 693 and 915) even have the option of offset straps that allow you to mount your Speedpack much further forward, if desired. If it helps, below is a photo of a pro with her Hanzo at Kona 2023 who uses our standard Speedpack 483. Maybe one these bentos will fit your needs?

Greg @ dsw


instagram link:
https://www.instagram.com/...Spmp7PL/?img_index=1

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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This…..

Great. How can i order one?

Use the DarkSpeedWorks.com link below:

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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