Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies

Jul 20, 13 9:46

Post #1 of 178 (13546 views)

the proof of the pudding is in the yardage. simply put: 177 of you signed up for this challenge. as of now (acknowledging that as of this writing there is still saturday and sunday that have not been logged, plus whatever workouts you haven't gotten around to logging), there are 65 of you who have averaged 3000 yards a week. a reasonable weekly average, if you want to become good swimmers, is maybe 8,500 yards. as of now, 8 of you are swimming at that level. out of 177. if you chose, temporarily, to somewhat debase the bike and the run and really spend time focusing on swimming, a proper average might be 11,000 a week. this would describe 3 of you out of 177.

i do not know, but i would guess that those of you who're seeing real improvement are those of you who're actually swimming! all the drills, they'll help you improve your posture and technique. but nothing matters more than yards, yards, yards. that's what's going to give you the strength to use your technique, and the fitness to swim fast.

accordingly, i'm going to give you more workouts and more things to think about for your week that begins monday. however, if you are not swimming AT LEAST 6000 yards a week you're going to find everything here tough sledding. if you want to make that move from, say, a 2hr ironman swimmer to a 1:30 ironman swimmer, or a 1:20 ironman swimmer, you've got to starting thinking about 8000 or 10,000 yards a week, with the occasional 12,000 or 15,000 yard weeks.

the good book says, "you have not because you ask not." pardon my riff, but, you improve not because you swim not.

for me to get faster than my current swim speed - and i'm just talking about me, with my body, my abilities, i'm not talking about anyone else - i've got to average no fewer than 10,000 yards a week. if i swim less than that, then i just stay the same or get slower. if i really want to make a move forward in a relatively short period of time, it's 12,000 to 16,000 a week. if i do that over a 4- or 6-week span, i'll move to a new level in my speed. you can tell when i decide to do this, because it's reflected in my workouts.

you just need to decide if you want to get faster, folks. returning to the good book: where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. if this is important to you, you'll swim. if it isn't, you won't.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Last edited by: Slowman: Jul 20, 13 10:19

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 12:19

Post #2 of 178 (13389 views)

True, have been doing about 3500 meters per week now and feel that I am about 1 week behind schedule. Will try to double this over the next weeks!

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 12:54

Post #3 of 178 (13348 views)

Decades ago when I was a guppy with very little swim experience I was accepted on a large, natl. caliber swim club. The very first workout I had to do was a straight 3000 yd swim with all flip turns. The coach said if he saw me do any open turns he would make me get out of the pool and go home and I would be off the team. For about 2 months practices were agonizing and I thought my arms would fall off but eventually things like straight 3000's became easy. Within about a 1 1/2 years I was doing periods of 60,000-75,000 a week with "easy" weeks of 35,000. In 2 1/2 years my 500 free time went from 8:00 to 4:48. Dan is correct when he says you need to put in yards to improve swimming because I am neither a particularly fast or talented swimmer yet with enough time spent swimming I could get fairly good.

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 13:46

Post #4 of 178 (13269 views)

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 14:08

Post #5 of 178 (13239 views)

this is my first and last beating to my group of guppies. we're either going to up our game, rise to the challenge, and bring ourselves to a new place. or we're not. and i think we're all going to come to our own conclusions individually.

considering the low swim totals so far by many of the challenge participants, i can see how success is just a very short distance away. fixing some stroke mechanics, and actually getting someone to swim 6000 or 8000 yards a week instead of 1500 or 2000 yards a week, man, that right there will bring a lot of our folks from a 2:10 ironman swim to a 1:45, or from a 1:45 ironman to a 1:20 ironman, in 2 or 3 months.

the hardest part of a new routine is starting it. taking the first step. once you've got a few sessions in, you get jazzed (well, i do) and i want to continue on. i don't want the streak to stop.

this tuesday upcoming, i'm going to be running with a fellow named mark covert. he's the xc and track coach at antelope valley college, not too far from me. you can read about mark covert if you want. i see mark at least once a year, at a get together of a lot of us who ran HS cross country and track at the same time, back in the late 60s and thru the mid 70s. mark began a training bloc, and this tuesday that training bloc ends. so i'm going to be there to run with him on that run.

just start. just do that first workout. the first swim, bike or run of the rest of your life. then the second is not so hard. and the third even easier. at some point it will become hard, at least occasionally. but if you devote yourself to it, eventually it's easier to continue than to stop.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 15:14

Post #6 of 178 (13124 views)

Dear Guppies,

Tired of passing my slow ass on the run? Hmmm, Slowman has given you the path to fix that...

Sincerely,

The slowest runner in my age group...

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 15:15

Post #7 of 178 (13121 views)

Can you come fix my lack of running ability? I need your pep talk for the run.

Thx.
A Fish

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 16:13

Post #8 of 178 (13031 views)

8 of you are swimming at that level. out of 177.

That ratio can be applied to all people doing anything.

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [schroeder] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 16:43

Post #9 of 178 (12998 views)

Strictly speaking, it isn't necessarily out of 177.
At the time I write this, only 99 have logged any swim yards for this challenge.
There is 100% probability that some of the remainder have swum without using the ST Training Log.
I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that logging our workouts was optional.

Just saying.

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 17:01

Post #10 of 178 (12979 views)

"I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that logging our workouts was optional."

that is true. i'm hoping to get us all to think in different terms than we have been thinking. i am certain that the numbers are higher than i'm quoting, because every workout that has been logged has been done. what we don't know is how many workouts have been done that have not been logged. so the true average yardage, or mean yardage, is something above what i'm quoting. the question for every guppy is, where does he or she stand after 3 weeks? 1000 yards a week average? 3000? 5000? we just need to up our games a bit if we're on the low side of that.

i asked a very good swim coach once, about a year ago, about some help with my own swimming, so that i could take it to the next level. his first question: what has been your weekly yardage? no, i answered and told him that's not it. nevertheless, he asked, what has it been? so, i calculated. i emailed him back. never mind. i see your point. i'll contact you again when my yardage has been x per week.

i wrote earlier in this thread what x is for me. x gets higher as you get faster, whether it's swim, bike or run. a non-cyclist will get better on 1 ride a week. a pro cyclist will get slower on 1 ride per week. for this group, the over/under is, on average, probably about 3000 yards per week, that is, 3000 is statis for a guppy: you won't get faster or slower. 5000 means improvement. 8000 average means big improvement. 10,000 a week means you can say goodbye to your old swimming speed, and hello to a new group of swimmers you'll be exiting the water with. if a midpack swimmer starts to average 12,000 to 15,000 a week, in 6 months he'll be front pack, as long as he's also paying some attention to his stroke.

same with biking, same with running. volume is king. volume beats any other single thing you might do to try to get faster.

every guppy just needs to look back at the yardage. 3000 yards a week is not enough. 6000 yards a week is a nice total. i'd like to see everybody really try for 5000 or 6000 a week (or more, if you can and feel as if you'd like to). at some point during the next 6 remaining weeks i'd like everybody to have one 10,000 yard week. more than 1 of those weeks if you'd like to. but, at least 1. it's unbelievable what 1 high mileage week will mean. you'll be a new person. it'll take you to a new level.

but first, before we do that 10,000 yard week, my interest is in instilling in your some stroke mechanics improvements, or at least a pathway toward improvements. i think a lot of us are there, after 3 weeks of working on this. now we need to up that yardage a bit, in preparation for that eventual 10,000 yard week. i don't want that sort of week undertaken cold turkey. so, i'm giving you a little kick in the pants, to get you to up your yardage, so that when we throw in that 1 big week your arms won't fall off.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 18:02

Post #11 of 178 (12883 views)

I suspect in general you are correct.
That said, my swim
2011 Year: 776,291 yards which is around 15,000 yards/week average
2011 Sep-Dec all around or exceeding 100,000 yards/month
2011 Dec (Peak Month): 105,150 yards
2011 Dec (Peak Week): 34,050 yards
A couple of private lessons w/ different Masters coaches.
Multiple masters sessions every week.
Result: unable to leave the slowest swim lane in Masters

When you consider how slowly I swim, that yardage is rather insane. Particularly for the results.
So, whatever. Some of us guppies just suck despite effort.
Fortunately there is a bike and run.

In general, you are probably correct.

Edit: Corrected date. And I'm enjoying being back in the water, following your process. Regardless of outcome.

Last edited by: caf0: Jul 20, 13 18:25

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 19:37

Post #12 of 178 (12742 views)

caf0 wrote:

I suspect in general you are correct.
That said, my swim
2011 Year: 776,291 yards which is around 15,000 yards/week average
2011 Sep-Dec all around or exceeding 100,000 yards/month
2011 Dec (Peak Month): 105,150 yards
2011 Dec (Peak Week): 34,050 yards
A couple of private lessons w/ different Masters coaches.
Multiple masters sessions every week.
Result: unable to leave the slowest swim lane in Masters

When you consider how slowly I swim, that yardage is rather insane. Particularly for the results.
So, whatever. Some of us guppies just suck despite effort.
Fortunately there is a bike and run.

In general, you are probably correct.

Edit: Corrected date. And I'm enjoying being back in the water, following your process. Regardless of outcome.

Caf0 - Those yardage numbers are for 2011??? What about '12 and '13??? And, surely you improved some back in '11??? Surely your time for say 500 yds or 400 meters went down at least 1:00 or more???

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 20:19

Post #13 of 178 (12691 views)

Yes, I did indeed improve during that 5-month swim focus. My 500y all-out TT dropped from 10min to 9:23min.
Not enough to get me out of the slow "social" lane at Masters, but it was an improvement.
Then my times started increasing, maybe due to a health issue I had developed (but didn't realize for a long time).
I don't think I've swum since May 2012, until this challenge.

ericmulk wrote:

caf0 wrote:

I suspect in general you are correct.
That said, my swim
2011 Year: 776,291 yards which is around 15,000 yards/week average
2011 Sep-Dec all around or exceeding 100,000 yards/month
2011 Dec (Peak Month): 105,150 yards
2011 Dec (Peak Week): 34,050 yards
A couple of private lessons w/ different Masters coaches.
Multiple masters sessions every week.
Result: unable to leave the slowest swim lane in Masters

When you consider how slowly I swim, that yardage is rather insane. Particularly for the results.
So, whatever. Some of us guppies just suck despite effort.
Fortunately there is a bike and run.

In general, you are probably correct.

Edit: Corrected date. And I'm enjoying being back in the water, following your process. Regardless of outcome.

Caf0 - Those yardage numbers are for 2011??? What about '12 and '13??? And, surely you improved some back in '11??? Surely your time for say 500 yds or 400 meters went down at least 1:00 or more???

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 20:29

Post #14 of 178 (12682 views)

caf0 wrote:

Yes, I did indeed improve during that 5-month swim focus. My 500y all-out TT dropped from 10min to 9:23min.
Not enough to get me out of the slow "social" lane at Masters, but it was an improvement.

Hmm, ya, some improvement but not what you would have hoped for. What did your coaches/instructors say in your private lessons??? Also, what about your all-out 50, 100, and 200y, how do they compare to your 500???

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 20:30

Post #15 of 178 (12678 views)

Avg 3500 meters? I do a 3.5 km open water swim every week, in addition to what I do in the pool.

Stop being triathletes, & start being Runners, Bikers, & God forbid, SWIMMERs too!!!

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 20:38

Post #16 of 178 (12672 views)

Coaches said my stroke looked pretty good, no major flaws.
My all-out 100y PB was 1:46 or 1:47, only hit that a couple of times.
Don't recall 50y, not much faster pace than 100y.
I could swim slowly forever, tho. Just don't expect anything in a sprint.
But yeah, I don't want to put in those volumes again for such return.

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 21:15

Post #17 of 178 (12639 views)

Dan,
You are spot on with your assesment. As someone who has done triathlons for thirty years, I have spent last few months taking my swm from 10, 000 per week and building to 20, 000. I see dramatic improvement and while I come from a running background and come out of water with the lead group in age group I see times much more consistent and even.
I also see improvement n my running as the aerobic gains are showing there as well.
As a coach the frustrating thing is seeing triathles spend thousands.of dollars on bike gear but not direct focus on something like their swim training.

futrmultisportt.com

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 21:20

Post #18 of 178 (12635 views)

"2011 Year: 776,291 yards which is around 15,000 yards/week average"

well, those are pro yards. you should be swimming a 500yd time trial in 6:15 or 6:30 with yardage like that. we'll make you faster.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 13 21:50

Post #19 of 178 (12620 views)

turningscrews wrote:

Avg 3500 meters? I do a 3.5 km open water swim every week, in addition to what I do in the pool.

Stop being triathletes, & start being Runners, Bikers, & God forbid, SWIMMERs too!!!

Bully for you.

Did you get lost here on your way to the fishies challenge?? Because you're not adding much value here..

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 3:18

Post #20 of 178 (12492 views)

I've been swimming 3 x 3,000+ yds a week for about 4 years now with no improvement in time, actually getting a little slower. So that's why I thought doing the challenge would possible fix some technique flaws that are limiting me. Can do all the drills and swims fine, just have trouble with the 'on the back stuff' when my arms are overhead. Hard to believe that is the reason for my lack of speed progress. My swim times, since learning to swim 9 years ago, follow a bell curve and I'm currently heading down the back side. Maybe I need to increase my volume to 3 x 4000 yds per week?

---------------------------------------------------

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [caf0] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 6:59

Post #21 of 178 (12344 views)

caf0 wrote:

There is 100% probability that some of the remainder have swum without using the ST Training Log.
I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that logging our workouts was optional.

Just saying.

this. i log everything at BT, not here.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 8:20

Post #22 of 178 (12268 views)

Can I suggest that you include some intensity in those yards as well? The "guppies" I see at the pool are all about slow steady pull sets while I'm hauling butt and sucking wind for most of my work outs.

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 8:56

Post #23 of 178 (12233 views)

Well, my guppyness is going to have to remain where it is for a bit. A stupid mountain bike crash this morning has left me a bloody mess. So, to not risk infection and as a courtesy to others, I guess I'm going to have to take a few days to heal up enough before getting back into the pool.

I'm not giving up, though - I'll be back in it as soon as I can. I've never had so much fun in the pool (unless there was a waterslide involved). Thanks again for the challenge!

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 10:45

Post #24 of 178 (12132 views)

Slowman wrote:

this is my first and last beating to my group of guppies. we're either going to up our game, rise to the challenge, and bring ourselves to a new place. or we're not. and i think we're all going to come to our own conclusions individually.

considering the low swim totals so far by many of the challenge participants, i can see how success is just a very short distance away. fixing some stroke mechanics, and actually getting someone to swim 6000 or 8000 yards a week instead of 1500 or 2000 yards a week, man, that right there will bring a lot of our folks from a 2:10 ironman swim to a 1:45, or from a 1:45 ironman to a 1:20 ironman, in 2 or 3 months.

the hardest part of a new routine is starting it. taking the first step. once you've got a few sessions in, you get jazzed (well, i do) and i want to continue on. i don't want the streak to stop.

this tuesday upcoming, i'm going to be running with a fellow named mark covert. he's the xc and track coach at antelope valley college, not too far from me. you can read about mark covert if you want. i see mark at least once a year, at a get together of a lot of us who ran HS cross country and track at the same time, back in the late 60s and thru the mid 70s. mark began a training bloc, and this tuesday that training bloc ends. so i'm going to be there to run with him on that run.

just start. just do that first workout. the first swim, bike or run of the rest of your life. then the second is not so hard. and the third even easier. at some point it will become hard, at least occasionally. but if you devote yourself to it, eventually it's easier to continue than to stop.

I am generally guilty as charged in terms of very low swim yardage. I just discovered this challenge today and signed up. In July and August, I have no excuses for not swimming as the outdoor pool is open 10-15 min bike ride from work and home Plus open water swimming is 15 min from both by bike....the rest of the year, my pool access sucks....so perfect time to pile it on. Thanks for the challenge

Re: Guppies: It's clear why you're guppies [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 13 11:13

Post #25 of 178 (12087 views)

Dev - You're not a "guppy" at all though, since you've gone 56:xx for several IM swims. I don't really think you're the "target audience" per se, but the more the merrier as they say:)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Last edited by: ericmulk: Jul 21, 13 11:15

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