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OBSTRI
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I searched to see if I missed this talked about already but couldn’t find anything.

Ironman has essentially shut down OBSTRI. It’s a great site with a ton of good data on ironman results and the easiest place to find who you’re competing against in upcoming races (imo). I don’t really have a point to this post other than to say it’s disappointing and that IM ruins everything.
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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Im super confused why you think this? And how would it be "Ironmans fault" ?

E-DUB
Chief Janitor @Slowtwitch
Life is short. Dont be mad all the time.

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Re: OBSTRI [Ewynn] [ In reply to ]
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In order to be transparent and honest, I recently made IM aware of the existance of my website...
According to IM I can't be gathering their (ours?) results as they CLAIM IT'S THEIR PROPERTY and they want to keep the right to use them. IM has also removed access to the participants lists and I can't get the names of people signed up for a race anymore. There is also a bunch of privacy and GDPR issues that could prevent me from storing all the results.
This website has always been a passion project and my main goal was to serve the community. If I were to lose access to the results I don't think it has any reason to exist anymore. I'm not sure what the future is for ObsTri at the moment. For that reason I suspended the purchase of Premium access for the time being as I can't guarentee the service anymore.
I doubt the News section and the Fantasy will be enough for people to stick around. I'm uncertain of what the future holds for The Obsessed Triathlete...
Sincerely,
Christophe
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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He should remove the data as requested, and put the code to scrape the data up on github.
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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Ever consider lawyering up? I don’t think it’s as clear cut as they like to think. Their results are public, and USAT uses their results in athlete rankings, etc.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: OBSTRI [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Results being public is one thing. Scraping entry lists in advance might be another.

This doesn't get into the thorny issues relating to GDPR and the various iterations.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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JDugan wrote:
In order to be transparent and honest, I recently made IM aware of the existance of my website...

No good deed goes unpunished…

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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A word of thanks to Obstri for the public service that website offered (offers).

And a word of scorn to IM for finding another opportunity to spit in the face of their customers.
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Re: OBSTRI [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
A word of thanks to Obstri for the public service that website offered (offers).

And a word of scorn to IM for finding another opportunity to spit in the face of their customers.

I put this beyond IM as much as I like to have issue with them.

They own the results, yes, but really this comes down in good part to the European privacy laws that make them protect that data.
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Re: OBSTRI [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
Ever consider lawyering up? I don’t think it’s as clear cut as they like to think. Their results are public, and USAT uses their results in athlete rankings, etc.

I'd bet this is overwhelmingly a privacy issue. That start lists certainly are. Because I can see very real concerns with, "I will be out of the state/country/etc for an extended period on these specific dates..." (for example). I'm actually surprised they ever made that available via API rather than something like a PDF that's at least harder to scrape. But even there, start lists seem like a risk for any event...

On the result side, If you're a USAT athlete, then you have an existing relationship with USAT as regards your PII. And so there's no compliance concern with USAT accessing your triathlon race results. Add to that the fact that USAT - as best as I can remember - only considers your placement in USAT-sanctioned races, and again, USAT is definitely not accessing "public" information. It's accessing information that they almost certainly *require* access to as part of the sanctioning process.

Information being publicly available doesn't mean it's free for reuse however you see fit. You have a legal agreement with the entity to which you give your personal information. You do not have such an agreement with some 3rd party site that scrapes that data.

The closest analogy I can think of is Strava and their API. They provide an API to allow scraping of data. But they can - and do - cutoff access to that data if they don't approve of your usage of it. I.e., you cannot scrape Strava data to make a competitor site. Ironman likely has similar restrictions - which they are entirely allowed to have - around the usage of their data.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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I am not sure if start lists from an open athletic competition or results from an open athletic competition are anything BUT public domain information given they are put up on a public facing website.

Whether it is teams playing this Sunday in the NFL or the result from said games, that information is public. Same with a UCI sanctioned event bike event, or an IAAF sanctioned event, or a USAT sanctioned event (ex many Ironman events), or triathlon Canada sanctioned event (many Ironman events) and so on.

The existence of start lists or results clearly are public domain. Just by entering races, we allow for others to know where we will potentially be and in the public domain later, confirmation that we were not only there, but what times we did in what.

It would be different if Ironman stored all of this in a private website with secure login from the internet (ex would be things inside a company's intranet)....everything a company puts up on their public website ends up being public.
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Re: OBSTRI [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So it's multifactorial.

GDPR requires the right to be forgotten. Heck, we deal with that on occasion (and the unintentional ramifications of how that works). So let's say that someone exercises that right to have their entry or result removed. IM removes it, but OBSTRI doesn't: who is liable? Under GDPR, it's suggested it might still be IM's problem.

And remember that the definition of PII under GDPR is intentionally super broad. But someone's name on an entry list would certainly be characterized as PII for the purposes of GDPR.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: OBSTRI [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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It would be very easy for me to delete any results IM decides to remove. It's a not technical issue we're dealing with here.
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Re: OBSTRI [obstri] [ In reply to ]
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I figured as much (and thanks, PS, for the forum help). But I can also see why they have their hackles up -- for people who would be less helpful.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: OBSTRI [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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More thoughts on this.

Around the world, Ironman runs open public events, generally sanctioned by national federations. Most of those national federations are either in part of fully funded by taxpayers in said countries.

In any case, Ironman is not running private events behind closed doors.

They are running public events open to anyone.

  • It is public domain news who is racing at these events
  • It is public domain news who did what results at these events

If Ironman housed the results on a private website that is password protected, behind an intranet I think we could argue that this data is created by ironman and not publicly available, but Ironman is forced to create this data and publish it publicly to submit to sport governing bodies who then make it public in other channels.

So perhaps their only leg to stand on is that they don't authorize scraping it off their website or using their API without a fee. They did the work to aggregate and publish the news. You should pay them to just go and grab it, versus us sitting on the side of the road with a clip board and stop watches at hand and manually timing and uploading to the internet.

The raw data (the news) is public domain, but the derived data or data derivatives that they put on their website is their packaged version of the news. It seems fair for them to ask that you don't used their derived data without asking them/paying them/licensing from them. But the news is the news (the raw data). I can't see them having any ownership of that.

If Usein Bolt is on the start list for the 100m at the Beijing 2008 games and runs 9:59 is this data owned by IOC and I can't type it here, or did I watch it on TV on CBC, commit it to memory and transcribe it here without having to ask the IOC for anything or pay them for anything? I think it is the latter. It's just public domain news.
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Re: OBSTRI [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Does IM even have an API? I have my old scraper code from circa 2017, but back then brute force html parsing was the only way. Haven’t checked in a while, but back then there was no public API. If there is one now, I’d be interested in doing an open source data project since public datasets are so much better these days.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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JDugan wrote:
In order to be transparent and honest, I recently made IM aware of the existance of my website...
According to IM I can't be gathering their (ours?) results as they CLAIM IT'S THEIR PROPERTY and they want to keep the right to use them. IM has also removed access to the participants lists and I can't get the names of people signed up for a race anymore. There is also a bunch of privacy and GDPR issues that could prevent me from storing all the results.
This website has always been a passion project and my main goal was to serve the community. If I were to lose access to the results I don't think it has any reason to exist anymore. I'm not sure what the future is for ObsTri at the moment. For that reason I suspended the purchase of Premium access for the time being as I can't guarentee the service anymore.
I doubt the News section and the Fantasy will be enough for people to stick around. I'm uncertain of what the future holds for The Obsessed Triathlete...
Sincerely,
Christophe

What if you use athlete self reporter entries? Sure it might take a bit to Catch on but it would add some data points

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: OBSTRI [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
So it's multifactorial.

GDPR requires the right to be forgotten. Heck, we deal with that on occasion (and the unintentional ramifications of how that works). So let's say that someone exercises that right to have their entry or result removed. IM removes it, but OBSTRI doesn't: who is liable? Under GDPR, it's suggested it might still be IM's problem.

And remember that the definition of PII under GDPR is intentionally super broad. But someone's name on an entry list would certainly be characterized as PII for the purposes of GDPR.

Why would GDPR matter here? Any data protection matters would be between OBSTRI and EU regulators. It's not IMs responsibility to police 3rd parties.
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Re: OBSTRI [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
So it's multifactorial.

GDPR requires the right to be forgotten. Heck, we deal with that on occasion (and the unintentional ramifications of how that works). So let's say that someone exercises that right to have their entry or result removed. IM removes it, but OBSTRI doesn't: who is liable? Under GDPR, it's suggested it might still be IM's problem.

And remember that the definition of PII under GDPR is intentionally super broad. But someone's name on an entry list would certainly be characterized as PII for the purposes of GDPR.

I have worked with a lot of lawyers on GDPR and none have ever suggested that you are responsible for how other organisations comply with GDPR. I think IM only have to be able to defend what they store and what they publish. If it is OK for them to publish to a particular audience, I don’t think they the become responsible for the actions of that audience.

The GDPR complications that I can see would be:

- Would an athlete signing up for an IM event have a reasonable expectation that their information will be on obstri.com (and athslinks.com, etc.)? If not then there are issues with ensuring consent to collect this information.

- IM clearly used to have an API or something similar that was publishing the people that were entered into an event (beyond the start list PDF just before the event). This would be potentially an issue for IM as most people would not have been aware (and arguably would not expect) their information to be disclosed this way. Having said that we may all agree to this in the T’s & C’s we agree to when we enter - I haven’t checked.

As you point out, the information involved clearly does fall under the definition of PI in GDPR. Another pertinent point is that just because information is public, GDPR does not automatically give a right to collect even public PI.
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Re: OBSTRI [obstri] [ In reply to ]
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obstri wrote:
It would be very easy for me to delete any results IM decides to remove. It's a not technical issue we're dealing with here.


What would be better for IM ? To collaborate with you or have your stuff end up in Open Source without any relationship between IM and t's users ?
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Re: OBSTRI [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
Does IM even have an API? I have my old scraper code from circa 2017, but back then brute force html parsing was the only way. Haven’t checked in a while, but back then there was no public API. If there is one now, I’d be interested in doing an open source data project since public datasets are so much better these days.

No idea. I kind of doubt it. But to that point, I can see brute force scraping/parsing/whatever-you-want-to-call-it being something that they might take issue with.

Though I don't really - personally - see the difference between an actual API and "thing that generates html dynamically" given how easy it is to scrape. In fact, to me anyway, it would make more sense for Ironman to actually have an API with actual guidelines and terms of use.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: OBSTRI [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Precisely. The WTC has one - https://developers.triathlon.org/docs so it can't be that hard.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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My biggest issue with "OBSTRI" is that my brain fills in "-Trician" afterwards - no matter that it's spelled wrong; that's a whole other story


Sorry, it needed to be said


Or maybe not

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: OBSTRI [JDugan] [ In reply to ]
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Christophe's fantasy games have been relaunched at thedailytri, according to his newsletter which I now recovered from the spam box:

https://www.dailytri.com/fantasy

It's got WTCS Abu Dhabi and T100 Miami.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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