Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 9:38

Post #26 of 59 (1998 views)

The GMAN wrote:

dave.michael wrote:

I think that it is a smart decision to add the 70.3 in Penticton on the same day as the full-distance event. They have all the assets required to put the race on, why not use it, to maximize their return on the investment. It will create a larger event on the day. Fill the city up and return to more of a festival atmosphere.

That's certainly the reasoning behind a decision like that but it unfortunately doesn't seem to actually work in North America. The jury is still out on Wisconsin. I think this will be the third year combining the IM and 70.3. Numbers for both are way done from pre-COVID years (about half) and numbers were less in 2023 than 2022. Numbers are generally down for all IM races in N.A. as compared to 2019 but Wisconsin's numbers are far worse than most. Maryland and Chattanooga's numbers suck too. I've said it on here before that barring some major turnaround that Canada, Wisconsin, Maryland, and Chattanooga will not exist as IM races in the next few years.

That will leave Texas, Lake Placid, California, Florida, Arizona, and Cozumel as the only N.A. IM races unless a new locale is added as others get canceled.

70.3 is the new 140.6

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [japarker24] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 10:12

Post #27 of 59 (1959 views)

japarker24 wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

dave.michael wrote:

I think that it is a smart decision to add the 70.3 in Penticton on the same day as the full-distance event. They have all the assets required to put the race on, why not use it, to maximize their return on the investment. It will create a larger event on the day. Fill the city up and return to more of a festival atmosphere.

That's certainly the reasoning behind a decision like that but it unfortunately doesn't seem to actually work in North America. The jury is still out on Wisconsin. I think this will be the third year combining the IM and 70.3. Numbers for both are way done from pre-COVID years (about half) and numbers were less in 2023 than 2022. Numbers are generally down for all IM races in N.A. as compared to 2019 but Wisconsin's numbers are far worse than most. Maryland and Chattanooga's numbers suck too. I've said it on here before that barring some major turnaround that Canada, Wisconsin, Maryland, and Chattanooga will not exist as IM races in the next few years.

That will leave Texas, Lake Placid, California, Florida, Arizona, and Cozumel as the only N.A. IM races unless a new locale is added as others get canceled.

70.3 is the new 140.6

I 100% agree with that but IM has to figure out how to pivot away from the 140.6 to 70.3 as their "marquee" distance. The customer has spoken as to which distance is currently more popular.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [japarker24] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 11:02

Post #28 of 59 (1913 views)

japarker24 wrote:

70.3 is the new 140.6

Gravel cycling and ultra running is the new triathlon

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 12:34

Post #29 of 59 (1850 views)

The GMAN wrote:

japarker24 wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

dave.michael wrote:

I think that it is a smart decision to add the 70.3 in Penticton on the same day as the full-distance event. They have all the assets required to put the race on, why not use it, to maximize their return on the investment. It will create a larger event on the day. Fill the city up and return to more of a festival atmosphere.

That's certainly the reasoning behind a decision like that but it unfortunately doesn't seem to actually work in North America. The jury is still out on Wisconsin. I think this will be the third year combining the IM and 70.3. Numbers for both are way done from pre-COVID years (about half) and numbers were less in 2023 than 2022. Numbers are generally down for all IM races in N.A. as compared to 2019 but Wisconsin's numbers are far worse than most. Maryland and Chattanooga's numbers suck too. I've said it on here before that barring some major turnaround that Canada, Wisconsin, Maryland, and Chattanooga will not exist as IM races in the next few years.

That will leave Texas, Lake Placid, California, Florida, Arizona, and Cozumel as the only N.A. IM races unless a new locale is added as others get canceled.

70.3 is the new 140.6

I 100% agree with that but IM has to figure out how to pivot away from the 140.6 to 70.3 as their "marquee" distance. The customer has spoken as to which distance is currently more popular.

Saying it for years Ironman 140.6 worse enemy is the 70.3. But this decision I get, but I don’t like.

One I am doing the full and now have to pass slower half iron traffic for a lot of it which I don’t like. Subjective

I would do a 70.3 penticton and the full of the half was June 17-July 16 th time line.

And lastly this means there is a super high chance we will not have a full Ironman in Canada any more. Wow 3000 people in 2013 , 12 years later off the map.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 13:14

Post #30 of 59 (1825 views)

michael Hatch wrote:

The 23 laps is the part I like the most (42 for the full IM). That's 23 hairpin corners, 23 times through the really fast LH & RH switchback and accelerating into the little valley. 23 times down the hill on the back curve that most people are too scared to take at full speed, before bombing down the two straights and spinning out in an 11 if the wind is with you. That and getting a wave from your partner every 7 1/2 minutes. Compare that to following the white line and staying tucked for 2 1/2 hours and getting pissed at the people who are trying to catch your back wheel or passing in a pack. I've done a bunch of those races and couldn't tell you the scenery if my life depended on it (and that includes Kona)....:0)

I haven't done Barrelman and I can't give you a reason why not.

Oh Barelman is awesome. I heartily recommend doing it. One of the better run courses out there for sure.

Thanks for the feedback on Esprit - I might take a 2nd look at it

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 13:29

Post #31 of 59 (1811 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

japarker24 wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

dave.michael wrote:

I think that it is a smart decision to add the 70.3 in Penticton on the same day as the full-distance event. They have all the assets required to put the race on, why not use it, to maximize their return on the investment. It will create a larger event on the day. Fill the city up and return to more of a festival atmosphere.

That's certainly the reasoning behind a decision like that but it unfortunately doesn't seem to actually work in North America. The jury is still out on Wisconsin. I think this will be the third year combining the IM and 70.3. Numbers for both are way done from pre-COVID years (about half) and numbers were less in 2023 than 2022. Numbers are generally down for all IM races in N.A. as compared to 2019 but Wisconsin's numbers are far worse than most. Maryland and Chattanooga's numbers suck too. I've said it on here before that barring some major turnaround that Canada, Wisconsin, Maryland, and Chattanooga will not exist as IM races in the next few years.

That will leave Texas, Lake Placid, California, Florida, Arizona, and Cozumel as the only N.A. IM races unless a new locale is added as others get canceled.

70.3 is the new 140.6

I 100% agree with that but IM has to figure out how to pivot away from the 140.6 to 70.3 as their "marquee" distance. The customer has spoken as to which distance is currently more popular.

Saying it for years Ironman 140.6 worse enemy is the 70.3. But this decision I get, but I don’t like.

One I am doing the full and now have to pass slower half iron traffic for a lot of it which I don’t like. Subjective

I would do a 70.3 penticton and the full of the half was June 17-July 16 th time line.

And lastly this means there is a super high chance we will not have a full Ironman in Canada any more. Wow 3000 people in 2013 , 12 years later off the map.

As someone suggested above that maybe they rotate a race or two every year to old IM courses but I'm not sure that really worked out when Ironman announced a rotating series with StG, CdA, and supposedly a third venue. Numbers still sucked.

They need to cut it down to the six N.A. races mentioned above and call it a day. The 140.6 distance might become popular again but that isn't happening anytime soon. Grow the 70.3 series and see if the 140.6 organically bounces back.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 15:01

Post #32 of 59 (1754 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

One I am doing the full and now have to pass slower half iron traffic for a lot of it which I don’t like.

Please, Triathletetoth is not going to be in a spot where he is mixing it up with the slower, half iron traffic.

There is a chance that you might be in the mix with the fastest of the half iron swimmers if/as they merge for the final leg into the beach. That puts you in with the pointy end of both races heading south out of town on the bike. The fast kids in the 70.3 are not going to Osoyoos, so the question is, at what point on the run are you catching the back of the 70.3 walkers? And at that time of the day, will they matter?

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [_canadian] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 16:17

Post #33 of 59 (1704 views)

_canadian wrote:

Triathletetoth wrote:

One I am doing the full and now have to pass slower half iron traffic for a lot of it which I don’t like.

Please, Triathletetoth is not going to be in a spot where he is mixing it up with the slower, half iron traffic.

There is a chance that you might be in the mix with the fastest of the half iron swimmers if/as they merge for the final leg into the beach. That puts you in with the pointy end of both races heading south out of town on the bike. The fast kids in the 70.3 are not going to Osoyoos, so the question is, at what point on the run are you catching the back of the 70.3 walkers? And at that time of the day, will they matter?

Why do you comment about it unless you have experienced it. Ironman whistler had the same situation. I have been in both racer.

First the 70.3 started 90 minutes after the start of the full to not interfere. with the Ironman athletes not sure if that will happen here.

The bike does head towards osoyoos for 40 km before it turns left and then rejoins the same road as the full at 60 km of the half and 150 of the full. So by then there will be large groups of slower riders on curve down hill descents and aid station traffic like Arizona that is very dangerous when you fix fast and slow and or slow and fast.

so if the average age group starts at 8:30 am and swims 40 plus T1 8 min and is at the 60 km mark 2:32 later ( it's at the high pitch of the bike course ) it will be 12 noon about with 500 athletes bw the 150 km mark of the Ironman to the front of the half leader on the run.

At which point the led group of the Full will be coming through them all from behind from tat the150 mark to the finish line.

The same as whistler which at the time had three laps which was nutz as well and a lot of crashes.

Then if you are a 70.3 front pack racer you will likely have to ride though a large group for the first 40 km of the bike at very different speeds which was like whistler and is not a fun and very dangerous as many have experienced with mixed speeds on courses.

Can you do it yes, is it fun not as much. did I mention I was given my subjective experience of 20 years of ironman events yes and you cut that off in the quote?

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 16:55

Post #34 of 59 (1681 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

_canadian wrote:

Triathletetoth wrote:

One I am doing the full and now have to pass slower half iron traffic for a lot of it which I don’t like.

Please, Triathletetoth is not going to be in a spot where he is mixing it up with the slower, half iron traffic.

There is a chance that you might be in the mix with the fastest of the half iron swimmers if/as they merge for the final leg into the beach. That puts you in with the pointy end of both races heading south out of town on the bike. The fast kids in the 70.3 are not going to Osoyoos, so the question is, at what point on the run are you catching the back of the 70.3 walkers? And at that time of the day, will they matter?

Why do you comment about it unless you have experienced it. Ironman whistler had the same situation. I have been in both racer.

First the 70.3 started 90 minutes after the start of the full to not interfere. with the Ironman athletes not sure if that will happen here.

The bike does head towards osoyoos for 40 km before it turns left and then rejoins the same road as the full at 60 km of the half and 150 of the full. So by then there will be large groups of slower riders on curve down hill descents and aid station traffic like Arizona that is very dangerous when you fix fast and slow and or slow and fast.

so if the average age group starts at 8:30 am and swims 40 plus T1 8 min and is at the 60 km mark 2:32 later ( it's at the high pitch of the bike course ) it will be 12 noon about with 500 athletes bw the 150 km mark of the Ironman to the front of the half leader on the run.

At which point the led group of the Full will be coming through them all from behind from tat the150 mark to the finish line.

The same as whistler which at the time had three laps which was nutz as well and a lot of crashes.

Then if you are a 70.3 front pack racer you will likely have to ride though a large group for the first 40 km of the bike at very different speeds which was like whistler and is not a fun and very dangerous as many have experienced with mixed speeds on courses.

Can you do it yes, is it fun not as much. did I mention I was given my subjective experience of 20 years of ironman events yes and you cut that off in the quote?

Whistler (multi-loop) != Penticton (single loop)

If they stagger the start times by 90 minutes, you're not going to see a 70.3 rider for the first half of your race. Now I absolutely agree with you that it would suck for the front of the full IM to ride down White Lake Road with the back half of the 70.3 crowd still on the road.

I commented on this with the idea that they would send the 70.3 race much closer together, timing it such that the lake is clear of swimmers from both races at roughly the same time. The swim marshals only needing to sweep the course once.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 19:05

Post #35 of 59 (1640 views)

The GMAN wrote:

dave.michael wrote:

I think that it is a smart decision to add the 70.3 in Penticton on the same day as the full-distance event. They have all the assets required to put the race on, why not use it, to maximize their return on the investment. It will create a larger event on the day. Fill the city up and return to more of a festival atmosphere.

That's certainly the reasoning behind a decision like that but it unfortunately doesn't seem to actually work in North America. The jury is still out on Wisconsin. I think this will be the third year combining the IM and 70.3. Numbers for both are way done from pre-COVID years (about half) and numbers were less in 2023 than 2022. Numbers are generally down for all IM races in N.A. as compared to 2019 but Wisconsin's numbers are far worse than most. Maryland and Chattanooga's numbers suck too. I've said it on here before that barring some major turnaround that Canada, Wisconsin, Maryland, and Chattanooga will not exist as IM races in the next few years.

That will leave Texas, Lake Placid, California, Florida, Arizona, and Cozumel as the only N.A. IM races unless a new locale is added as others get canceled.

It doesn't work anywhere. Ironman Spain has the IM, the 70.3, A swim-bike? or Bike Run which puts 5600 athletes on the same road.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Last edited by: TheStroBro: Feb 14, 24 19:06

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 19:48

Post #36 of 59 (1617 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

It doesn't work anywhere.

.
.
Works very well in Australia and Asia so don't use one Euro race to speak for every location in the world.

These days the 70.3's on the same weekend are making the Ironman's viable.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Feb 14, 24 19:59

Post #37 of 59 (1609 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

TheStroBro wrote:

It doesn't work anywhere.

.
.
Works very well in Australia and Asia so don't use one Euro race to speak for every location in the world.

These days the 70.3's on the same weekend are making the Ironman's viable.

As long as the races are on separate days, I'd say that is a vibe.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 11:51

Post #38 of 59 (1440 views)

I agree with @Triathletetoth it's going to be problematic coming back in on Willowbrook Rd, especially the higher speed (for many of us) descent to the cattleguard before rejoining Hwy 97. The rest of the course should be fine, just that descent will be hairy, with the fastest IM catching mid-pack 70.3'ers. Taking a few seconds to ride under safely and under control will be paramount to a good day for all involved.
Even with this potential issue, I think that it's still a great thing for the sport and look forward to the day. (I haven't even discussed racing it yet with my spouse)...pretty sure she's not on S.T so I'm safe for a bit! :)

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [dave.michael] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 12:25

Post #39 of 59 (1405 views)

dave.michael wrote:

I agree with @Triathletetoth it's going to be problematic coming back in on Willowbrook Rd, especially the higher speed (for many of us) descent to the cattleguard before rejoining Hwy 97. The rest of the course should be fine, just that descent will be hairy, with the fastest IM catching mid-pack 70.3'ers. Taking a few seconds to ride under safely and under control will be paramount to a good day for all involved.
Even with this potential issue, I think that it's still a great thing for the sport and look forward to the day. (I haven't even discussed racing it yet with my spouse)...pretty sure she's not on S.T so I'm safe for a bit! :)

Yup is will have to happen just have to now race with more caution and knowing the situation.

Just like world’s championship waves you enter the back of the next pack and is isn’t ideal but all the athletes are dealing with the same circumstances.

There may be some overall in the first 40 km with slower Ironman swimmers and fast 70.3 swimmers we don’t know yet .

This issue isn’t just for the fast people , slower athletes don’t want to get passed all day or swim over .

Nice worlds 70.3 there were a ton of older men (60-70?) just floating half way , likely tired of getting swim over from the athletes that started behind them but are nearly twice as fast.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [dave.michael] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 12:44

Post #40 of 59 (1390 views)

I think this is a signal to the end of the full distance in Penticton.
fingers crossed, but ya ... :(

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 12:49

Post #41 of 59 (1387 views)

I've ridden that descent at least a half dozen times, I have no idea why it would be considered problematic.
There are maybe 2 or 3 slightly more technical corners and the rest is easy.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [deantrives] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 12:56

Post #42 of 59 (1375 views)

deantrives wrote:

I think this is a signal to the end of the full distance in Penticton.
fingers crossed, but ya ... :(

Maybe this is what saves it. If you're running an event where you need so many more people to make it viable, then this might well actually be what fills out the numbers.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 13:15

Post #43 of 59 (1362 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

I've ridden that descent at least a half dozen times, I have no idea why it would be considered problematic.
There are maybe 2 or 3 slightly more technical corners and the rest is easy.

Not the course the passing slower of faster and slower athletes on a course and ability to hold a line on the right or pass fast and move over etc.

Even on flat courses mixing loops of fast and slow get problematic. You don’t have traffic on the highway at 50 km/hr but you half can try and go 100 km/ hr. Etc

We see this all the time sam long at 70.3 boulder crossing the yellow etc .

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 13:37

Post #44 of 59 (1344 views)

Again, @Triathletetoth nailed it. It's not the course per se, but the traffic of differing speeds and capabilities that would be problematic. I'm happy to rip it at 90% of max speed any day, but during the OK Granfondo & IMC, it's a bit more dangerous and you have to look at who is riding around you, guess their comfort level at 50 - 60km/hr. It's not like triathletes are famous for bike handling skills!

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [timbasile] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 14:46

Post #45 of 59 (1327 views)

timbasile wrote:

deantrives wrote:

I think this is a signal to the end of the full distance in Penticton.
fingers crossed, but ya ... :(

Maybe this is what saves it. If you're running an event where you need so many more people to make it viable, then this might well actually be what fills out the numbers.

.
.
Exactly.
The 70.3 events help make the weekend viable in many race venues. Having the 70.3 athletes hanging around the race precinct after they are done racing also ads so much to the Ironman event.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 15:07

Post #46 of 59 (1312 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

timbasile wrote:

deantrives wrote:

I think this is a signal to the end of the full distance in Penticton.
fingers crossed, but ya ... :(

Maybe this is what saves it. If you're running an event where you need so many more people to make it viable, then this might well actually be what fills out the numbers.

.
.
Exactly.
The 70.3 events help make the weekend viable in many race venues. Having the 70.3 athletes hanging around the race precinct after they are done racing also ads so much to the Ironman event.

History show the 70.3 does keep the event going but not the full distance whistler, also challenge Penticton proved this. Penticton in 2013 full only challenge event, second year full only, third year full with very low numbers and a half with high numbers and the pro race, then 2016 ? might have been a half or gone already I can't remember , ITU long course was 2017 Penticton, super league 2018 ( smoked out) and since then only IMC 2022.

No one wants to lose Ironman or a 70.3 I think for me a want both but a 70.3 in early season an Ironman.

I just watched IMC 1989 they had 800 athletes so it was viable with low numbers before.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Feb 15, 24 15:37

Post #47 of 59 (1301 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

No one wants to lose Ironman or a 70.3 I think for me a want both but a 70.3 in early season an Ironman.

I just watched IMC 1989 they had 800 athletes so it was viable with low numbers before.

.
.
Show me a single business in the world that has the same operating cost today that they did in 1989. You just can't compare era's like that. I spent around 7 summers hanging out in the IMC office and living in Dave Bullock's house in Penticton and I can tell you the way all these events are run now is unbelievably more expensive than it was in the 90's and 2000's.

The event in Penticton will die if they leave it up to Ironman numbers alone. Same goes for all the Australian Ironman's and I suspect a lot in Asia as well. People want to race 70.3' because they are cheaper to enter,cheaper to train for and are more time friendly for a lifestyle sport. Ironman is fast becoming the novelty race and a pain in the ass for organizers.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 24 1:53

Post #48 of 59 (1180 views)

No doubt today costs are outrageous in comparison. I’d figure costs to run a 70.3 to be a fraction of a full while at the same time producing better profit margins for the company, and similar profits for host community. I really hope IM Canada lives; but i feel like I’ve seen this movie.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [dave.michael] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 24 11:47

Post #49 of 59 (1079 views)

Bah. The field would be stretched thing by that section. I just don't see it.

The only time I did IMC back in the day it was a shitshow all the way to Osoyoos as it was still a mass start and I swam midpack.
Nothing could be more dangerous than that.

Last time I did this descent was in the OG fondo IIRC, with a group of 10 of us, although we were on road, not tri bikes.

Re: New IM70.3 in Canada [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 24 13:36

Post #50 of 59 (1031 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

Triathletetoth wrote:

No one wants to lose Ironman or a 70.3 I think for me a want both but a 70.3 in early season an Ironman.

I just watched IMC 1989 they had 800 athletes so it was viable with low numbers before.

.
.
Show me a single business in the world that has the same operating cost today that they did in 1989. You just can't compare era's like that. I spent around 7 summers hanging out in the IMC office and living in Dave Bullock's house in Penticton and I can tell you the way all these events are run now is unbelievably more expensive than it was in the 90's and 2000's.

The event in Penticton will die if they leave it up to Ironman numbers alone. Same goes for all the Australian Ironman's and I suspect a lot in Asia as well. People want to race 70.3' because they are cheaper to enter,cheaper to train for and are more time friendly for a lifestyle sport. Ironman is fast becoming the novelty race and a pain in the ass for organizers.

yup I have stated and agreed with all that you say already. operation cost do follow inflation though don't they so

800 in 1989 ?? $200 dollar entry ??? 160,000 which would buy you more then the average house in Penticton in 1989.

today 800 at $900 = 720,000 which is just a bit below the house price in Penticton.

So they likely ( I have heard ) cost 1,000,000 to do an event so they are losing with those numbers.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

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