UTMB Whistler controversy

Oct 27, 23 9:11

Post #1 of 71 (8619 views)

https://whistler.utmb.world/

Ironman teaching UTMB how to play dirty...
https://garyrobbinsrun.com/...ent-down-in-whistler
Local runners are PISSED and I agree with them.

Loads of people want to race a UTMB champ race, just like IMWC, but killing locally owned races kills the sport.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 9:38

Post #2 of 71 (8559 views)

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I'm on Gary/Coast Mountain side. Vail-Whistler being in it for the money should come as a surprise to no one.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 12:57

Post #3 of 71 (8331 views)

yes been following this closely as Gary Robbins is a local legend here in BC and his races are amazing. This is all too familiar to us in the triathlon landscape. Watching this is definite PTSD as its all so predictable. BUT, i also think the outcome will be the same. the ULTRA scene will grow and UTMB will become the predominant event organizer. I think Gary will be fine, but overall he will the very small minority. Many will go way of REV3, Challenge NA, TriStar etc.

@rhyspencer

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:20

Post #4 of 71 (8258 views)

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:25

Post #5 of 71 (8244 views)

Lurker4 wrote:

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

You conveniently ignore a bunch of facts here.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:31

Post #6 of 71 (8225 views)

Lurker4 wrote:

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

Gotta say, this is not a take I saw coming after reading this. Props for the major zag.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:36

Post #7 of 71 (8217 views)

Lurker4 wrote:

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

100% believe it was among other things.
Ironman has proved they are pretty slimy when it comes to buying up races or just moving in and forcing the little guy out. So for me, this isn't too much of a stretch to believe him 100%

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [rhys] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:36

Post #8 of 71 (8217 views)

rhys wrote:

yes been following this closely as Gary Robbins is a local legend here in BC and his races are amazing. This is all too familiar to us in the triathlon landscape. Watching this is definite PTSD as its all so predictable. BUT, i also think the outcome will be the same. the ULTRA scene will grow and UTMB will become the predominant event organizer. I think Gary will be fine, but overall he will the very small minority. Many will go way of REV3, Challenge NA, TriStar etc.

Laz had better pay attention or one year soon he will go to permit for the Barkley Marathons and find out that UTMB/IM have already signed exclusive agreement with Frozen Head State Park for the Markley Marathons for his same weekend.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [kny] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 13:38

Post #9 of 71 (8207 views)

kny wrote:

rhys wrote:

yes been following this closely as Gary Robbins is a local legend here in BC and his races are amazing. This is all too familiar to us in the triathlon landscape. Watching this is definite PTSD as its all so predictable. BUT, i also think the outcome will be the same. the ULTRA scene will grow and UTMB will become the predominant event organizer. I think Gary will be fine, but overall he will the very small minority. Many will go way of REV3, Challenge NA, TriStar etc.

Laz had better pay attention or one year soon he will go to permit for the Barkley Marathons and find out that UTMB/IM have already signed exclusive agreement with Frozen Head State Park for the Markley Marathons for his same weekend.

Can't think of a better way for the Ultra/Trail Running world to start a boycott of UTMB/IM. That's a person I'd bet they are way too scared to fuck with.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 16:13

Post #10 of 71 (8022 views)

This tale sounds quite familiar to the those of us in the ultra community in Australia.

The Coast to Kosciuszko Ultramarathon is an independently organised event established in 2004. Each year in December, runners have assembled on the damp sand of the beach at Twofold Bay, waiting for the sun to rise over the ocean behind them. They have 46 hours to run to the 240km to the summit of Australia's highest peak, Mount Kosciuszko, before descending to the Charlotte Pass finishline.

Due to the point-to-point design of the course taking in public roads, C2K is restricted to a limited number of runners, although it has always been held in high regard by the ultra community. For the race's continued viability, it not only needs to attract runners, but each runner requires a support crew and the organiser needs to the support of a team of volunteers. Both crews and race volunteers are largely drawn from those within the ultra community.

Last year Ironman launched Ultra-Trail Kosciuszko, featuring a 100 mile, 100km, 50km and 27km events. It's a major event, with the racing spread over 3 days with relatively few limitations on competitor numbers. The 100 mile and 100km promote the summit of Mount Kosciuszko as the selling point, although the races start and finish in a nearby ski resort, as opposed to C2K's epic journey from the ocean to highest peak on the continent.

As with C2K, most of the UT-Kosci 100 mile competitors require a travel day before and after the event, committing to 4 or 5 days away from home.

With only 3 days between the end of C2K and the start of Ironman's event, the latter is a real threat to C2K's ability to attract runners, support crews and race volunteers.

Last edited by: satanellus: Oct 27, 23 16:15

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 19:30

Post #11 of 71 (7845 views)

as per most things it comes down to money....follow the money. i think Gary does a fantastic job and has built an excellent series of events. However with Whistler pricing their single day lift passes at $299 this season that should tell you all you need to know....

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 23 19:50

Post #12 of 71 (7818 views)

Vail Whistler is a business and the fact that they would prefer a more richer international crowd to come to their resort and restaurants etc to run a trial race on their land seems obvious to me over a local guy who attracts people in the region to come, however great of a person and however much he loves the sport.

utmb ironman was likely to show a better return on investment for their clientele than Gary.

Utmb sent out an email yesterday to runners all over the world announcing the race. I got it and thought wow that sounds like a cool place to go race. I didn’t even know about Gary or his race until this controversy.

It sucks for Gary, and local racing. No one likes to lose a business deal so I get his anger when he says he “is shaking right now [with anger]” in his blog post.

I think this was bound to happen. Whistler is none of vails premiere locations. They easily make more money from utmb ironman than Gary and WAM.

There’s a great book called UTMB the race that changed trail running. I listened to a podcast with the author on a long run a few months back. It goes through the history of utmb and how it got to be the top of the food chain and how it was basically forced to partner with ironman to survive. It’s a family run business believe it or not but it does seem the ironman partnership has made it more corporate. Money talks.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 6:00

Post #13 of 71 (7544 views)

Quote:

utmb ironman was likely to show a better return on investment for their clientele than Gary.

So out of 52 weekends in 2024, UTMB just had to pick that same weekend as his race? Yeah, okay. It’s just more of the same shit they’ve pulled in the past for independent long course triathlon.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 6:31

Post #14 of 71 (7502 views)

My reading of the tea leaves, including Gary's post, suggests this has more to do with Vail/WB than IM/UTMB in terms of how this shook out. I have a sneaking suspicion that it was the mountain who offered up Gary's date, rather than the other way around, but I could also be wrong.

Regardless...trail running's going to go through the same exercise that triathlon and gravel have had. And in an environment where athletes demand more, permitting authorities demand more, etc. -- the only people who might be able to weather that storm are your largest event production companies.

----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 7:18

Post #15 of 71 (7452 views)

Might have been a condition of the deal. I don’t know the climate up there but I’ll bet it’s the best weather weekend for a race. Whistler does all kinds of events throughout the year so I would estimate not every weekend is open in the first place.

Plus if you’re the only race all year it gives you a better chance to sell out.

My main point in this and my previous post, is that everything being attributed to malice likely has a good business reason behind it and Vail and utmb and businesses first.

Last edited by: Tribike53: Oct 28, 23 7:20

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 7:38

Post #16 of 71 (7408 views)

But unless you have no clue of what’s going on in the running world or the area, wouldn’t you say hey, we know there’s this other race going on, what’s up with that? It does not pass the smell test for me, as someone who has seen it happen time, and time again.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 7:48

Post #17 of 71 (7377 views)

ironclm wrote:

But unless you have no clue of what’s going on in the running world or the area, wouldn’t you say hey, we know there’s this other race going on, what’s up with that? It does not pass the smell test for me, as someone who has seen it happen time, and time again.

But there wasn’t. WAM had permanently canceled their race back in Feb

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/...ly-cancelled-6526867

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 15:22

Post #18 of 71 (7117 views)

Tribike53 wrote:

ironclm wrote:

But unless you have no clue of what’s going on in the running world or the area, wouldn’t you say hey, we know there’s this other race going on, what’s up with that? It does not pass the smell test for me, as someone who has seen it happen time, and time again.

But there wasn’t. WAM had permanently canceled their race back in Feb

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/...ly-cancelled-6526867

If you read Gary’s blog post, you’ll see why they canceled. It was not by choice. Whistler played hardball with them and put up a lot of new barriers. Most likely, behind the scenes, they knew they were working on a deal with UTMB so they did all they could to make it difficult on Gary to obtain his permit.

On top of all this, Whistler permitted the Everesting folks to go ahead with their race. Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the Everesting races (running, at least) started by Jesse Izter (who’s wife is super rich because of her company). To me, this would suggest that Whistler paid favoritism towards another rich entity/member of society to put a race on their schedule

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 16:11

Post #19 of 71 (7052 views)

EyeRunMD wrote:

Tribike53 wrote:

ironclm wrote:

But unless you have no clue of what’s going on in the running world or the area, wouldn’t you say hey, we know there’s this other race going on, what’s up with that? It does not pass the smell test for me, as someone who has seen it happen time, and time again.

But there wasn’t. WAM had permanently canceled their race back in Feb

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/...ly-cancelled-6526867

If you read Gary’s blog post, you’ll see why they canceled. It was not by choice. Whistler played hardball with them and put up a lot of new barriers. Most likely, behind the scenes, they knew they were working on a deal with UTMB so they did all they could to make it difficult on Gary to obtain his permit.

On top of all this, Whistler permitted the Everesting folks to go ahead with their race. Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the Everesting races (running, at least) started by Jesse Izter (who’s wife is super rich because of her company). To me, this would suggest that Whistler paid favoritism towards another rich entity/member of society to put a race on their schedule

I agree with you about Whistler working on a deal and freezing him out.

And yes, Jesse Itzer and his running partner started 29029. It kind of rolled out from a coaching group that he used to do and the retreat that went with that in 2014/15 or thereabouts - I don’t remember exactly. I was supposed to go, but I ended up not going. He has expanded his empire a lot since then. And his wife Sara Blakely started Spanx, but sold it for a shit load of money.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 16:36

Post #20 of 71 (7016 views)

Trail Runner story on this.

Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Oct 28, 23 16:49

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 16:46

Post #21 of 71 (7005 views)

ironclm wrote:

EyeRunMD wrote:

Tribike53 wrote:

ironclm wrote:

But unless you have no clue of what’s going on in the running world or the area, wouldn’t you say hey, we know there’s this other race going on, what’s up with that? It does not pass the smell test for me, as someone who has seen it happen time, and time again.

But there wasn’t. WAM had permanently canceled their race back in Feb

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/...ly-cancelled-6526867

If you read Gary’s blog post, you’ll see why they canceled. It was not by choice. Whistler played hardball with them and put up a lot of new barriers. Most likely, behind the scenes, they knew they were working on a deal with UTMB so they did all they could to make it difficult on Gary to obtain his permit.

On top of all this, Whistler permitted the Everesting folks to go ahead with their race. Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the Everesting races (running, at least) started by Jesse Izter (who’s wife is super rich because of her company). To me, this would suggest that Whistler paid favoritism towards another rich entity/member of society to put a race on their schedule

I agree with you about Whistler working on a deal and freezing him out.

And yes, Jesse Itzer and his running partner started 29029. It kind of rolled out from a coaching group that he used to do and the retreat that went with that in 2014/15 or thereabouts - I don’t remember exactly. I was supposed to go, but I ended up not going. He has expanded his empire a lot since then. And his wife Sara Blakely started Spanx, but sold it for a shit load of money.

Thank you, I could not recall the name of her company. I believe they are billionaires because of her success

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 16:47

Post #22 of 71 (7003 views)

I did read Gary’s post before all of this to kind of catch up on the situation. In his post I believe he talks about how he thought his company could provide whatever new requirements were needed by I believe April or may 2023.

Was that too late for Whistler and that’s why the feb 2023 announcement cancelled? It’s a bit unclear to me.

From his post it sounds like he was also given a second chance in summer 2023 by whistler Vail for a 2024 race. It sounds to me he was working that when they decided ultimately in vail for 2024.

Was he being strung along the whole time? Was it just a competitive bid that he lost? Was utmb treated with the same amount of rigor? Remember utmb already works with another large ski resort on speedgoat 50k at snowbird. While snowbird is not a Vail resort I’m guessing utmb had the requirements Vail needed ready to go based on that relationship. Were both utmb and Gary given the same amount of time to complete the bid? Lots of questions that needs answering before we assign any blame IMO

Unfortunately I’m not familiar with the Jesse itzler angle. That is interesting.

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 23 17:48

Post #23 of 71 (6939 views)

The billion part is because of her, but he has a lot of money of his own. He started out as a rapper and songwriter, and wrote a bunch of songs for the NBA and other sports, and then started a record company. That company got sold for millions, and he then co-founded Marquis Jet. They are also part of the owners group for the Atlanta Hawks.

He’s also the guy who hired David Goggins to live with him for a month and train him, and he ended up writing the book “Living With A Seal”. His Build Your Life Résumé course was very helpful, especially if you have entrepreneurial leanings.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [M~] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 23 7:06

Post #24 of 71 (6663 views)

M~ wrote:

Lurker4 wrote:

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

100% believe it was among other things.
Ironman has proved they are pretty slimy when it comes to buying up races or just moving in and forcing the little guy out. So for me, this isn't too much of a stretch to believe him 100%

Oh, I have no doubt Ironman outmanuvered him. I don't think it's slimey. If he doesn't have a long term contract with rights of refusal etc in it to protect against competition he doesn't own anything unless he owns the mountain.

So Ironman offered to buy him out, his price was too high, and Ironman smiled and said we tried the front door, now we'll go to your boss and get you locked out.

And yes the problem was his price was too high. If he approached the negotiation as he should have; with an understanding that if he didn't make this deal it meant he had no deal and possibly no race, he wouldn't have insisted on whatever volunteer bonuses etc in addition to his paycheck.

When someone with the power to shut you down legally and ethically asks you to be involved in working with them, you have the choice to work with them or lose to them. He chose to lose to them.

We all need to recognize that race directors are making money on someone else's asset. Ironman UTMB was able to offer a more attractive offer to the owner/manager of that underlying asset.

It's a breach of their land use authorities responsibility to reject UTMB out of loyalty to the previous partner. Whoever managed the mountain made the better decision to work with the company with more legal protection, more marketing reach, more organization, etc. Gary made the worse decision to enter negotiation assuming he had anything to sell at all. UTMB did him a courtesy by talking to him. He fronted that he wasn't going to come cheap. So he went for nothing at all.

Sounds terribly harsh, and I'm not meaning it to be that way. But if the guy didn't own the mountain and didn't have a multi year agreement what the heck did he think he had worth buying?!

Last edited by: Lurker4: Oct 29, 23 7:08

Re: UTMB Whistler controversy [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 23 9:34

Post #25 of 71 (6539 views)

Lurker4 wrote:

M~ wrote:

Lurker4 wrote:

I don't know anything about Gary Robins, but reading his post sounds like he took for granted he could just roll up and run his race and someone out maneuvered him and secured a location that he thought he had, without ever having a contract or investing in the relationships to make it happen.

Ultra runners want to run a well organized race in a great location. Will UTMB offer that?

The guy that couldn't maintain the relationships or the contracts to continue holding an event is the one that should be trusted to carry on the sport? I'm suuuurrre the real hold up in his negotiations with a potential sale to Ironman was his volunteer support programs.

100% believe it was among other things.
Ironman has proved they are pretty slimy when it comes to buying up races or just moving in and forcing the little guy out. So for me, this isn't too much of a stretch to believe him 100%

Oh, I have no doubt Ironman outmanuvered him. I don't think it's slimey. If he doesn't have a long term contract with rights of refusal etc in it to protect against competition he doesn't own anything unless he owns the mountain.

So Ironman offered to buy him out, his price was too high, and Ironman smiled and said we tried the front door, now we'll go to your boss and get you locked out.

And yes the problem was his price was too high. If he approached the negotiation as he should have; with an understanding that if he didn't make this deal it meant he had no deal and possibly no race, he wouldn't have insisted on whatever volunteer bonuses etc in addition to his paycheck.

When someone with the power to shut you down legally and ethically asks you to be involved in working with them, you have the choice to work with them or lose to them. He chose to lose to them.

We all need to recognize that race directors are making money on someone else's asset. Ironman UTMB was able to offer a more attractive offer to the owner/manager of that underlying asset.

It's a breach of their land use authorities responsibility to reject UTMB out of loyalty to the previous partner. Whoever managed the mountain made the better decision to work with the company with more legal protection, more marketing reach, more organization, etc. Gary made the worse decision to enter negotiation assuming he had anything to sell at all. UTMB did him a courtesy by talking to him. He fronted that he wasn't going to come cheap. So he went for nothing at all.

Sounds terribly harsh, and I'm not meaning it to be that way. But if the guy didn't own the mountain and didn't have a multi year agreement what the heck did he think he had worth buying?!

First off I think your analysis is spot on. I’m having trouble finding anything I disagree with here.

You ask what did you think he had worth buying?

From the comments I’ve read on most ultra forums, running blogs, and YouTube channel about the issue it’s that Gary and his company personify the “soul” of ultra running. They are the antithesis of corporate money greedy (their words paraphrased) utmb. You ask what he has that was worth something? Gary and his followers would say what he has something that can’t be bought. The idea of offering money or that his race has a price is a foreign concept to him. I would bet they find the idea insulting. Thus the reaction this story is getting and why Gary chose to go for broke and lost.

Some good references:
https://www.irunfar.com/...ning-as-a-soul-sport

First few minutes of this podcast

https://www.runsingletrack.com/...nside-story-of-utmb/

“Whenever you attach your identity to a sport and somebody shifts the sport in some fundamental way it’s easy to feel threatened”

Last edited by: Tribike53: Oct 29, 23 9:47

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