I also have narrow heels but I don't think they make women's cycling shoes in a 47.

Good for you. This whole "Women's" gear thing is a joke. It is a condescending, sexist ploy to sell things to females. Women should find the notion of "Women Specific Designs" somewhat offensive. It is pandering. Bicycle gear does not care about genital configuration, only about whether a given piece of equipment fits. Not all women need so called- "Women's" bikes, seats, bike shorts and shoes. Some men need bikes with shorter top tubes, smaller brake levers and wider saddles. These catalogs that show the "bike club sisterhood" hangin' out and bein' real make me want to puke. Man or woman, use stuff that fits. Flower prints and smaller dimensions are a ploy. Women and men should buy what fits.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,

I agree that some WSD things are a marketing ploy: Luna bars for instance. Fewer calories and more calcium/iron doesn't really make it a Clif bar designed for women but they do taste damn good. At the same time, I would be happier walking into a bike shop and looking at the women's specific bike shorts than the ones that have a sign that says "Small waist to hip ratio--specific" shorts, or better yet, "big--a$$--specific" shorts. My boyfriend and I are about the same height, about the same weight, yet my hips are 5" larger and my waist is 5" smaller... certainly we don't belong in the same clothes.

Terry has made a lot of headway selling women specific stuff. Their product line includes merchandise specific to plus-sized women trying to enter the world of athletics, newbies, and "athletes". I believe that it's important to encourage all women to participate in sports/fitness and that it's a huge benefit to have these stores. All the PNFs and Badmanns can get away with unisex designs, and perhaps once women are elite, WSD clothing is a waste, but I think it gets a lot of females into the sport.

As for non-apparel women specific bike paraphenalia, women are always taught that they have shorter torsos and longer legs as compared to men of the same height. A few studies have shown that that's not true... we're just a little shorter on average. I agree with you then that WSD bikes may be foolhearty, especially the WSD OCLV bike Trek sells. While 90% of the 47 cm bikes may be sold to women, the 10% which are sold to men probably can't have pink flowers and a big sticker that says WSD---most men just wouldn't tolerate it. On the other side, I'd have to guess that most 58 cm bikes belong to men, but no woman who needed the bike would have any trouble getting over the fact that it was a "men's specific design."

Anyway, WSD is a polite way of describing some inherent difference in body type: skinnier heels, larger hips, smaller bodies, smaller hands... Most women have no problem walking over to the men's clothing section and getting the shorts/shoes/seats etc that best fit. Most guys just can't reciprocate.

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Meg.

True that. I ate Luna bars for a few days. I got moody, couldn't make a decision and though my butt looked big even when it didn't. I apologize, that's mean... see why I make fun of the stuff? There is certainly a necessity for female specifc cycling clothing. No question. It's just the bike thing, and those awful catalogs with the "Girl Power" pages. They are as offensive as the ones with Hooter's Girls selling bikes. At the end of the day, we may be shaped differently but we're all athletes, and male of female, worthy of some level of respect for even trying. Sometimes the industry doesn't offer that respect in its marketing strategies.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Of course I won't reciprocate! Bike companies just cannon design women's bike stuff that looks normal. I don't want to ride a bike that says WSD on the top tube, obviously. Why does it have to say it? I feel like it's only there to make people think they have a solution to a problem that doesn't even exist: short torsoed people can be of either sex! 'Dale makes the "compact" series for vertically challenged people. My boss has two road bikes (size 47), and they look like "normal" bikes. They're not pink with peace and love stickers on the downtube. I have very narrow feet, and I think I'd be happy wearing women's shoes. Unfortunately (and despite all the available Ulrich/Zabel paraphenalia), I don't want to wear pink shoes.

I'd like to hear more from the female crowd about this.

Dre'

Okay Okay, I admit it. I prefer the colors of the womens shoes as well. To damn bad I cant find any womens shoes in a mens 45....

And I really like the feel of my Time Equipe shoes...but that damn yellow, just clashes with the bike.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I went into my closet and I just didn't notice a whole lot of pink clothes in there. My Sidi Rampas look just like the men's version, but they have a narrower heel, my PI shorts look just like the men's version except they fit *my* waist and hips. WSD is not *supposed* to be about miniaturizing men's stuff and slapping pink paint on it. Quality women's stuff takes into account differences in the "average" male and female body that extend beyond and overall smaller frame.

If bike companies take their fashion tips from the freak in the lion suit
http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/ciporitiro/ciporitiro/ap002fa161cxw200h335c00.jpg
heaven only knows what will come out for men and or women next season.

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Meg.

You didn't notice the sick/pink stuff in your closet because, like most people (I assume) you think that (a good fraction of) the women specific jerseys (is) are hideous.
PI does a good job at making their clothing line look "sexless", as does Sidi. You know as well as I do that Sidi's don't fit my sad little feet (normal's too wide, narrow's too narrow). You also knows that the Castelli women's jersey line is just a scaled down men's version, despite their effort at making them look very good.

i think the "cat" is called a tiger ... :)

And maybe I need a "snake print" lycra suit to match my downright tasteless saddle ... :)

Dre'

I know that if I had boobs growing out of my shoulders I might be able to squeeze into the Castelli XL women's jersey. Them Italians just seem to be built a little differently than the larger American stock. I don't even know why they bothered to put darts into the jersey in the first place. Castelli also makes the tasteless sequined aqua-blue line... something our flamboyant leader Cipo might not be able to stomach.

I think that while your bashing the fashion sense inherent to WSD you should bring up the excellent sizing found on mountain biking garments... if it's got skulls, teeth, barbed wire, and it goes down to your knees in size S, it's a most excellent mountain biking jersey...

I'll paraphrase what another famous Kansan once said, "lions, tigers or bears, who cares.... it's one sick outfit."

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Meg.

FWIW the girl I'm dating now, an avid adventurer and triathlete, won't let pink touch her body. She wears feminine clothing but just doesn't like the "Barbie" image that accompanies pink cycling stuff. On the other hand, our store manager Nate is dating a wonderful young lady named Liz who collects barbies and is our state cyclocross champion in her category, an adventure racer and snowboarder. She wears pink and flowered stuff all the time. Doesn't slow her down. Her twin sister is an Air Force Captain. Sounds like a matter of personal preference to me.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

   Well, marketing gimmick or not, we just fit my wife on one of C'dale's feminine bikes and she couldn't be happier. Its a lot better fit than the previous two efforts, one of which included Giant's 4-sizes-fits-all approach. If "WSD," "Feminine," or whatever a particular brand names their women's line is what it takes to get a properly fitting bike, I'm all for it.

This whole unisex thing you all have going on here is killing me. Maybe Saks, Bloomingdales and Gap should get on board if we should all be wearing the same stuff, just sized correctly. That'd be really American of us. Everyone the same. Just put a swoosh or a tree on it and everyone wear it....I'm sick and tired of seeing women in men's fashions. Or is that men in women's fashions. Hell, I don't know anymore.....

It's not about everybody looking the same. It's about either going all out and making women's things that look like women's things, or just making scaled down versions of men's things. Why can't women buy a "team" jersey? As far as I know, they only make them in men's sizes. Same applies to "beer" jerseys: Why is the women's version of the "beer" jersey the "Ben & Jerry's" jersey? I like ice cream a lot!

My boss owns two "compact" 'Dales. He happens not to be a woman, but he's pretty short. The frames don't say anything about it. I suspect he didn't even consider buying Trek because the similarly sized frames said "WSD" on the top tube.

That's what I'm complaining about ... (don't get me started on the sizing of my Fox Racing moumou)

Dre'

Tom,

I hear what you are saying and agree with you to a certain degree.

Obviously, the one area that women are looking for some specific products that are function above fashion - are sports bras.

On the pure fashion front though, I know that many women are driven by fashion, pattern and colour - having worked for one of the key players in the technical cycling and running apparel business for a few years. I say this after working at many consumer shows and being exposed to thousands of women making buying decisions right in front of my eyes. This is something that many cycling shops just don't get. Women are also looking for well merchadised and well presented apparel, with sales staff that know what they are talking about. That also means having a proper change room(s) and good lighting in the stores - again shortcomings of many bike shops. I note that this IS something that the running shops picked up on early in the game and in many tech run shops apparel makes up a big chunk of the stores sales - with women customers driving the majority of this business.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree. We don't do a large women's apparel business because we don't have a large fitting room and we don't have any females on staff. We stick to basic stuff. Also, I believe females as a demographic category are more sophisticated apparel buyers. They have a higher expectation of fit and appearance than men as a group. Men tend to buy clothing more functionally, whereas females are looking for not only a higher degree of function than most men but also a greater level of aesthetic quality. That means they need to be exposed to a greater number of options to make what they feel is an informed, functional apparel purchase. It's a tough market some stores are good at and some aren't. We aren't.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I WISH Sidi made women's shoes in size 46 -- I am a 5'11" woman and I wear men's size 13 running shoes. I have yet to find a pair of cycling shoes that aren't loose around my heels.

as i've said before i used to work at REI, and there were many women coworkers that got really upset (like pissed) that X company didnt make a womens version of a cool men's jacket or shoes or whataver. I thought it was kinda stupid to get THAT upset. Realistically, if you look at who wears the stuff in your LBS or REI, the majority isnt women. Women are increasingly getting into cycling.triathlon and outdoor adventures, but they havent yet outnumbered men. BTW i think it great that women are involved in all of those sports/activities----i love being able to go on rides/runs/hikes/swims etc with a girl---as opposed to the stereotypical sissy girl that doesnt want to break a nail (i cant stand those).

One more piece of interesting info----at REI we used to sell about $4000 of mens shoes/boots a day and like $300 of womens. Its no surprise then that our womens section for shoes was less than half the size than the mens.

And yes, i used to sell quite a few womens shoes to men (the design looked exactly the same) but our mens sizing only went down to 7 and some guys had 6 or 5.5's so a womens shoe worked perfectly.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

Dr. Dre, Perhaps we aren't understanding each other's point. Rereading our posts, I think we're saying much the same thing.

I don't really care what they call it. If they have to call it feminine to get a properly proportioned 43 or 47cm frame with a "normal" 74deg seat angle (meaning they had to go to 650c wheels), I don't care. And yes, I expect many MEN have been waiting for that to happen. I won't laugh at them for riding something some marketing schmuck named a women's product if it fits them properly.

The "sameness" comment referred to the posts railing against pink-wear. My wife wishes she could find some pink-wear in cycling apparel. No, she's stuck mostly with red, yellow, and blue if she wants gear like mine. The sickly efforts at women's gear usually are the lesser grade products. She doesn't want to look like me, just have gear that performs the same as mine. I think that's mostly what you were saying.

P.S. My wife informs me that I tend to be a little too blunt when commenting on things. Hope that doesn't rub people too much against the grain.

We are saying the same thing, but approaching the problem from opposite directions, so it looks like we're having an argument. I wish women's stuff could be bought without the WSD signature, and you wish that your wife could find "pro quality" men's stuff with a feminine touch. Same idea: everything for everyone.

Did your wife visit TeamEstrogen.com? They carry *a lot* of brands (women's specific, except water bottles and stuff).

Dre'

P.S.
Forums are about exchanging opinions and learning different points of view. I don't participate to "win an argument", but either to try to help people by offering a different twist to the "accepted" line of reasoning, or to expand my knowledge by triggering a response via contradicting one's argument.

When a thread freaks me out, I don't post. If people think I should shut up, let me know: my email address is available to all.

Have you tried the Sidi Genius 4? It comes in a narrow - worked for me.

[reply]Women are increasingly getting into cycling.triathlon and outdoor adventures, but they havent yet outnumbered men.[/reply]

Come on out to Northern California where there are some races where the field is 51% women. And lots of them new triathletes/cyclists. There is a new women's cycling club that went from an idea to over 300 members in less than a year. Many had never been on a bike, or not on one since childhood. That's a lot of cash being spent at the LBSs.

Now, my peeve: As a Clydesdale woman, most tri companies seem to think that people larger than a stick cannot do triathlon. Of course, that is bull hockey. But, I am usually stuck having to buy men's clothing (or, ha ha ha, unisex). Women's cycling stuff is way ahead of the curve in this area. Crap, I probably wouldn't fit into the largest DeSoto or Zoot women's size even if I were zero percent body fat.

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clm
Nashville, TN
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