I have EE width for hockey skates and still run in Alphaflys with no problem. Alphaflys 1 are like Giro Aerohead for aero testing - according to many podcasts I’ve listened to etc. they seem to test the fastest for the highest % of people. IMO it would be a test design flaw if you didn’t include them.

Edit: you might eventually end-up with different shoe per course. It’s not super safe nor comfy to run tight corners on cobbles with 40mm stack shoes.

I don't like my brooks Hyperion 1s. I know that the 4s have gotten some positive reviews.

I'd say get the endorphin pro 4s or speed 4s end of February... February 29th apparently.

If you're happy with Hokas, I'd bias toward the X1s....unless you are in my AG; in that case definitely go with the NB 990s.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

lol. M40/44 so….. haha.
Thanks for all the advice guys. I’ve removed the Brooks from the list.

The Saucony Pro 3 are on sale in many countries ... I'd buy these.
And I wouldn't say that Nike fit narrow, if you could find some Alphafly 1 or 2 these would be my first choice.

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

My favourite training shoe are the Endorphin Speed (nylon plate), so I bought the Pros, but not really a fan. They're OK. But I'm back to racing in my Metaspeeds and will probably get the Vaporfly 3s at some point. But give the Pros a try, a lot of people like them. I guess it's a very individual thing and dependant on a bunch of factors.

Thanks everyone. I’m
Making some calls today to see if they’re any Nikes out there. Added them to the list.

Thank you. Many people are talking on the Alpha flys. Now to find a pair lol.

Now that the SEP4 are announced/out, I expected the SEP3 to be on discount. I have not found them less than $225 in the US. Are they on sale in non-US countries, or do you have a lead for a US location sale?

They are on sale for 209$ CDN in London Ontario.

Might be limited sizes

https://www.backroadslondon.com

40 % off in Germany if you search the web but not all sizes ... 30 % off if you buy from Saucony online outlet
There is also a big online shop in the UK with some discount

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

Nike VF3 are pure magic. Super light, very comfortable/cushy and great bounce.
Not quite the same pop feeling of the AF1 (I didn't try AF2 due to negative reviews or AF3 - impossible to get), but still amazing energy return and very goon on your feet on long run.
The upper feels a bit loose and requires tightening the laces for lockdown and still leaves a lot of room in the toebox, so I imagine will be good with wide feet.

I know its very individual, my n=1: I'm totally addicted to these shoes and find it hard to go back to other pairs even for daily training.

We have them for $135
Saucony has them for $135. They should be on sale at your local running shop.

If you can't find them call The Running Shop at 520 325 5097 tomorrow 10-5 AZ time. They can ship to you if your size is in stock

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

[inline Screenshot_11-2-2024_121027_http://www.saucony.com.jpeg]
I must be looking in the wrong place. From the Saucony web site, 12.15p US CT today. Still $225...

And this is the example of why I am against super shoes and other tech. People using them as a crutch to make up for training

Welcome to 2024.

Maybe we should all ride steel bikes and not wear gps watches. The hell with technology.

Ahhh my bad. I was thinking of the Endorphin Speed 3 even though I read that you wrote EP3.

Yeah, those aren't on sale yet. Not sure when the model flips, think it's a couple of months still. Companies usually put shoes on sale 4-8wk before the new model launches

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Try Nike Vaporfly 3. Toe box is very comfortable, cushy and they will give you enough bounce and propulsion. Most comfortable shoes I’ve ever tried.

I'm actually quite disappointed in the bounce/propulsion of the Vaporfly 3's. The Hoka Rocket X2's and New Balance SC Elite v4 both feel more "super" to me.

For what it's worth the first and third place women in the recent US marathon trials were on Puma.

They ran the Deviate Nitro Elite 3 prototype which will not be available before the summer for us normal humans.

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

I know, but my big race isn't until September, so there's time.
I have the Nitro 2s and I'm hopeful for the 3s.

Not worth anything as we should all know. The difference in is small and the winner probably would have finished first in any of the supershoes, only the margin would change by a few seconds.

It's interesting to see people still cling to Nike after many other brands have caught up. The differences between them will benefit different runners, so assuming that Nike is the Aerohead of shoes just doesn't work anymore.

Take a few shoes to a lab test and you might find that Nike is the slowest for you depending on weight, gait, and form. You'll also find the shoe that feels fastest often isn't fastest.

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Which is why I pointed it out.

What I try and explain to people is that supershoes are merely a passive form of sports technology. i.e. they only return some level of what you put into them and are merely a engineering exercise in increased efficiency over previous tech, not some form of performance enhancement. If people want to avoid passive increases efficiency, they’ll need to run barefoot and stay off cinder running tracks.

did you mean mondo track? personally I think its better to look gains when you peak on your current tech/abilities. A 1:45 half this guy is not shooting for prize money

I'd mean any artificially prepared track surface.
As to your latter point, I'd say a persons running ability is irrelevant when determining whether a technology is appropriate or not.

It mostly comes down to the foam tech and your comfort fit. Here is an interesting and thorough guide to the foams being commonly used:

FOAMS 101: Everything you need to know and how to choose the best for you : r/RunningShoeGeeks (reddit.com)

For what it's worth, I love my endorphin pro 3's. I tried the Nike VFs but liked the EP3's felt more natural.

But the athlete will not know if they are genuinely improving or not, unless started with this tech from the start

Does that actually matter ? Lab based tests should help that and the gain of such shoes would see a decent sudden spike in performance than you’d see with typical fitness or speed changes.

question for the crowd.. I used AP2s in the CIM early December. never ran any long runs in them as I took the "race day only" aspect to heart. Did run a couple of times in them. Probably should have been able to run a sub 3:30 (late 50s age) ended up with sore quads early on and calves cramping at mile 7, first of an increasing amount of calf stretches at mile 9, ended up at 3:52.

how many people train for significant long runs in super shoes before racing in them?
given that the carbon plates are only supposed to be good for 100ish miles(assuming this is still the case as it was with the originals, do you buy 2 pairs, one to train in and one for race day?

anyone else every have a similar experience?

I didn't run marathons with Alphaflys but I learned the hard way that saving them for race day is a risky proposition, as there aren't many shoes with similar geometry and loading. I was training in Saucony Endorphin Speeds as my training speed day shoe, and even rotated my AF1 in like 5 times in the weeks before my Oly tris, and I still managed to strain my calf pretty badly twice despite being well prepared. (I did run my Oly PRs with the AFs.)

Since I'm older and actually have some money to spend on triathlon (heh heh) I relegated my AF1 to training and have been racing with an AF2 that has barely been used. No more calf strains and no more weird leg issues from the transition.

I'll also add that for me, the AF1 holds up a lot better than the '100 mile' mark that people throw around often on the internet. Mine now has 400+miles on it (I log 'em all on Strava) and it feels and goes every bit as fast as my new AF2. Still feels really poppy compared to any non-supershoe, although granted slightly less poppy than when new. I'd happily race in my 400-mile used AF1 over all my other shoes I've ever used except for my new AF2, and even there, I doubt there'd be a difference.

The only way I'll retire my AF1 is if the AF3 is as-good or better and I can actually get them.

I know the shoes "hold up," but I think the plate loses it's effectiveness. I had thought to go with a similar nike training shoe, like the tempo.. if you read up, there are many issues that come from the plated shoes in general with your achilles becoming weaker..

I've not encountered any achilles weakness whatsoever. Maybe it's just me, but I've had no ill effects from training with the AF, even when going back to regular shoes (which I do for trail and treadmill) - other than the fact they feel slow in comparison!

Lots of marathoners, including very fast ones, who do all their training in AFs.

I do all of my long runs in one of my different super shoes. I usually use a pair for a season of racing then they’re workout shoes depending on races. Before Chicago I think I put 50-60 miles on my alphaflys which was 2 long runs and my pre race fitness test. Don’t let people tell you they only last a race or two. A person who tests these shoes tested a pair of alphaflys with 400 miles on them and they were still almost as efficient as a new pair.

And for adidas I’ll go ahead and say they are the best after like 75 miles. That’s when they seemed to loosen up a bit and feel even better.

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Twitter - Instagram

good stuff here, thank you

Gauging a shoe's maximum miles is a tricky proposition even for non-supershoes. The shoe companies giving a limit obviously have a conflict of interest

I've tried out a lot of super shoes, and my favorite would have to be the adidas ones. I really like how cushioned the Prime X's are, and I'm sure the Prime X 2's are even better, so they would have to be my recomendation. Vaporflies are also a tried and true for me, but I had more fun running in the Prime X's.

https://dumbrunner.com/...ad-runner-tells-self

https://dumbrunner.com/...unner-has-fast-shoes

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

You’re welcome! Honestly I think I’d use a shoe for races if they had 100 miles on them depending on my race. I use a few seasons old vaporflys with 150-200 miles for 10k and below but for my A race marathon/half’s I would use a shoe with less mileage just because I keep those race shoes with low miles but I don’t think they lose much after superness until around 250-300.

I also have shoes with 300+ miles that are still used for faster workouts so they’re a good investment.

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Twitter - Instagram

https://www.outsideonline.com/...shoes-last-research/

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Kiwami Racing Team

Now that the SEP4 have been out for a bit, I've been expecting the SEP3 to be discounted. But the 3 and 4 are the same price. Is that b/c the SEP4 have been reviewed with more criticism than the SEP3? Just trying to figure out if I should pull the trigger on SEP3 or wait (more)...

I don’t know but Endorphin series are crap to me. They are not that good compared to other super shoes.

Whereas I respond very well to the EP.

As always, YMMV.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

True, each to their own. We've had a number of Nike runners love the more stable Saucony Endorphin Pro. Durability is an order of magnitude greater as well. Far more bang for the buck but each of us respond to different things. I can't go the N brand for their social stances so no matter how good, no go for me.

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Kiwami Racing Team

Synthetic,

I think you are judging too harshly. Of all sports that use marginal gains, why are you judging adversely in triathlon the use of efficient shoes for age group athletes?

I have found that a good pair of running shoes can reduce my heart rate for the same achievement of speed at greater comfort, which is consistent with the scientific literature—this is implicitly a meaningful benefit not only for performance but also cardiovascular health (especially middle-aged or older men as I have commented on in the past, as a cardiologist).

A key way to maintain heart health long term in endurance sports is to spend most of our time increasing efficiency at below LT1 heart rates (and raising the ceiling with VO2 efforts). In running, a well-fitting, comfortable and efficient pair of shoes can be a meaningful way of achieving this objective. I am not sure this is much different from getting a professional bike fitting, using know-how and technology to increase efficiency and power delivery to pedals at greater comfort, also generally achieving lower heart rates for the same speed.

ES2 was the best all around shoe I’ve ever worn. 3&4 major disappointments. Didn’t even try to run in them after trying them on. If anyone knows where I can get some 2’s in 10.5 I’d be much appreciative. Bought 4 pair when being discontinued. Last pair has 750 miles on them and are done.

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Let food be thy medicine...

So you want a pair of super shoes to run at the same 1:45 pace?

The Endorphin Speed is one of my favourite training shoes, but not really a fan of the Pro. Seems OK, but like many "super shoes" feels just like a standard running shoe albeit a bit stiffer. It's like manufacturers have just stuck carbon plates in running shoes and then labelled them "super-shoes". The Metaspeed Edge is a good example. I actually love the Edge, my favourite shoe to run in, but it feels virtually no different to the Asics Hyper Speed (racing flat) I used to race in. It's like they stuck a carbon plate in the Hyperspeed. The only shoes I've ran in that felt like something very different have been the Nikes, 4%, Next% and Alphafly. I don't necessarily prefer them over other shoes, but I feel like Nike has done some proper R and D, incorporating innovative designs into their shoes whereas other companies haven't. I'm sure they have, it just doesn't feel like they have, if you know what I mean. Like a car manufacturer putting a spoiler on their standard sedan and calling it the "sports version".