Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
If all you ever do is shoot 3s, then the other team can predict and defend better and percentage goes down.

Exactly.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
sphere wrote:
Quote:
The #2 all time three point leader has 11 less than CC. But 166 less attempts and 44% to CC's 37.7%


Wow. Interesting. That’s not insignificant.

I’m assuming the point Barry was getting at with the 500 shots comment was that she’s very good at getting open to take those shots, or taking them under pressure. As noted, the game is dynamic and the stats don’t always tell the whole story…and yet, it’s the point total stat that launched her legend into the stratosphere.

I’m really not qualified to assess if the hype is warranted, but it’s hard to look past the stat you posted above along with the fact that the previous record holder (total points) did it with a men’s ball and no 3 point line. I think recency bias and the media ecosystem has created somewhat of an unfair relative legacy in that regard.


Yea no doubt she is crafty and one of her many skills is getting open and then being willing to pull up and shoot from deep. If a defense isn’t expecting it then it’s a sure way to get a shot off with the least pressure possible. Clark and proven time and again she will pull up from deep and her coverage isn’t even there yet.

Barry’s 500 shot comment and proposed question are ridiculous.

Why don’t they take hundreds of threes if their percentage is in the 40s? Because FG’s from within the arc are still a much higher percentage. It’s the same reason most tactics won’t have the team just shooting for threes when they’re down. Its more points right? Can’t make up the deficit quicker right? Wrong. It’s risk vs reward.

The 500 shot comment was silly.

The idea that they should just take hundreds and hundreds of 3s assumes that their percentages will remain the same as they shoot more, and that's not necessarily true. If all you ever do is shoot 3s, then the other team can predict and defend better and percentage goes down. Also, shooting regular FGs has both a higher chance of making the shot and a higher chance of getting the foul for free throw attempts which are high percentage shots as well. And, 3-point shooting is more fickle than scoring inside the arc, so you're more likely to have nights when you just can't hit a 3, and if that's all you do, you really fall off a cliff.

I agree. The risks go up significantly.
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
sphere wrote:
Quote:
The #2 all time three point leader has 11 less than CC. But 166 less attempts and 44% to CC's 37.7%


Wow. Interesting. That’s not insignificant.

I’m assuming the point Barry was getting at with the 500 shots comment was that she’s very good at getting open to take those shots, or taking them under pressure. As noted, the game is dynamic and the stats don’t always tell the whole story…and yet, it’s the point total stat that launched her legend into the stratosphere.

I’m really not qualified to assess if the hype is warranted, but it’s hard to look past the stat you posted above along with the fact that the previous record holder (total points) did it with a men’s ball and no 3 point line. I think recency bias and the media ecosystem has created somewhat of an unfair relative legacy in that regard.




As we are going down this hole, I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere, is a greater 3 point shooter than Clark. We'd have to look up the specific makeup of every team.

For some reason people want to look at Clark, put her into an oversimplified box, and then pick her apart. So lets compare her to Taylor Robertson who appears to have gone undrafted, despite being the all time 3 point leader with an astonishing 44% accuracy from beyond the arc.

So maybe Robertson actually is a better shooter. Lets look at the total picture:

Ast per game: Clark 8.2 - Robertson 2.1
Rebounds per game: Clark 7.1 - Robertson 3.6
Player Efficiency Rating: Clark 39 - Robertson 21.5

I understand that no one is saying that Robertson is a better player than Clark. The point I'm making is there's a difference between being the player that does everything and that the opposing team coaches literally have to draw completely strategies to shut you down, and you still manage to shoot 37% from the 3 point line, and players who get to sit outside and wait for someone to feed you the ball for an open shot.

Again, there's a reason for the attention Clark is getting, and it's not some sort of manufactured attention by the media. It's 28/7/8 over 4 years, and two finals appearances, which is insane.


Then why the hell are you arguing with me?!

I’ve pretty much said this exactly throughout the thread. The ONLY comment I made was a nuanced look at the praise she’s getting as a three point shooter.

In post #266 I agreed with what you said and then I commented on her three within the context of the final few games where her 3PFG % was shite and they almost lost, and then lost.

That was the context I provided. I said it was a blessing and a curse. I then said her team relied on it and it didn’t pan out when it mattered. Gave the specific % of a particular game which supported my position. It was all wrapped up with a comment that her shooting percentage wasnt that great given the context of that post and what I provided earlier in the thread.

All the while maintaining she is an unbelievable player and offensive machine.

Then you post this. So why the fuck are you arguing with me again? Why did YOU take me down the rabbit hole if you didn’t wanna go down it and if we both pretty much agree?

People over analyze amazing talent all the time. It’s just natural. It’s sports analysis. 🧐
Last edited by: Yeeper: May 10, 24 15:37
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
Quote:
The 500 shot comment was silly.


No it isn't. You keep pointing out that Caitlin Clark's 3pt shooting percentage is, in some way, lacking (relative to other greats, I suppose).

Clark made 532 attempts and shot 37.8%. So why don't the women with better shooting percentage not also take 500 shots? The example I gave was the SC guard who shot 47% from three point range?

The answer is not because "FGs within the arc are still a much higher percentage." Te-Hina scored 1.4 points per 3 point shot. The rest of her team scored 1.06 points per shot.

So why not just let her shoot more? Like a whole lot more? Wouldn't an extra .34 points per shot be a smart thing to do when she's shooting 47% from three?


Umm, yes. The reason more threes aren’t always a better option is because of the increased risk of taking them. And that increased risk is calculated for all of the reasons the percentage is lower than FGs from within the arc. That’s pretty much what increased risk entails.

You’re really going to argue this point?

Maybe Tehina didn’t wanna take as many threes because she wasn’t as confident and the percentage wasn’t acceptable to her and her teammates. While CC’s was. That is the guess I would hazard.
Last edited by: Yeeper: May 10, 24 15:36
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I then said her team relied on it and it didn’t pan out when it mattered. //

Really? I think getting your team to the final game of the NCAA tourney is a pretty big deal. They didnt win that game, they were heavy underdogs, but played them well in the final. There were several times when they almost didnt make it to the next round, but implying it was a failure just because they lost in the final, well pretty much makes all teams failures, when it mattered of course...[
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:


You’re really going to argue this point?


Hey, it's like sometimes that guy walks into the dive bar, and you can just sense that he's itching to pick a fight with someone. I think that's BarryP in this thread. Doesn't matter what the fight was over. Clark's 3s. Reese being a dramatically inferior player. Something. Anything. There was going to be a fight.
Last edited by: trail: May 10, 24 16:20
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
I then said her team relied on it and it didn’t pan out when it mattered. //

Really? I think getting your team to the final game of the NCAA tourney is a pretty big deal. They didnt win that game, they were heavy underdogs, but played them well in the final. There were several times when they almost didnt make it to the next round, but implying it was a failure just because they lost in the final, well pretty much makes all teams failures, when it mattered of course...[

You’re right. I don’t mean to make it sound like I diminished their run. Making it to the NCAA final is a massive accomplishment.

That being said the ultimate goal is to win. I think most analysts and Caitlin Clark herself understand the risks of deep threes. Clark herself has said she’s probably setting a bad example and doesn’t want young players to try it before they master the fundamentals. And her teammates and coach all value her insane and other wordly passing ability.

So I stand by my comment that a great three point shooter with a 37% conversion but shoots a lot more than anyone else, who also happens to be one of the assist leaders (and contributed to almost half of all of her teams points) could probably proper her team even more with less deep attempts and more driving and distributing. And the fact that she was even less than average the final two games on her three point conversions where the games were very close gives a little credence to that position.

Says the nobody from his tiny corner of NY armchair quarterbacking on a Friday night.
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
BarryP wrote:
Quote:
The 500 shot comment was silly.


No it isn't. You keep pointing out that Caitlin Clark's 3pt shooting percentage is, in some way, lacking (relative to other greats, I suppose).

Clark made 532 attempts and shot 37.8%. So why don't the women with better shooting percentage not also take 500 shots? The example I gave was the SC guard who shot 47% from three point range?

The answer is not because "FGs within the arc are still a much higher percentage." Te-Hina scored 1.4 points per 3 point shot. The rest of her team scored 1.06 points per shot.

So why not just let her shoot more? Like a whole lot more? Wouldn't an extra .34 points per shot be a smart thing to do when she's shooting 47% from three?


Umm, yes. The reason more threes aren’t always a better option is because of the increased risk of taking them. And that increased risk is calculated for all of the reasons the percentage is lower than FGs from within the arc. That’s pretty much what increased risk entails.

You’re really going to argue this point?

Maybe Tehina didn’t wanna take as many threes because she wasn’t as confident and the percentage wasn’t acceptable to her and her teammates. While CC’s was. That is the guess I would hazard.



No, my point is that when you say, "Clark's shooting % isn't that great," and then compare it to other shooters who don't carry nearly the load that she does......like, not even in the same universe, it's not a fair comparison.

Clark isn't a "not that great of a percentage" 37% three point shooter who only scores a lot because she shoots a lot. She shoots 37% because she has teams completely strategize around how to stop her from scoring. If it wasn't up to her to carry her team, and she could just sit on the outside and wait for good opportunities, I have no doubt that she'd shoot 40-50% from that range.

That's what you're missing.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


You’re really going to argue this point?


Hey, it's like sometimes that guy walks into the dive bar, and you can just sense that he's itching to pick a fight with someone. I think that's BarryP in this thread. Doesn't matter what the fight was over. Clark's 3s. Reese being a dramatically inferior player. Something. Anything. There was going to be a fight.


Thank you for your valuable contribution.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
BarryP wrote:
Quote:
The 500 shot comment was silly.


No it isn't. You keep pointing out that Caitlin Clark's 3pt shooting percentage is, in some way, lacking (relative to other greats, I suppose).

Clark made 532 attempts and shot 37.8%. So why don't the women with better shooting percentage not also take 500 shots? The example I gave was the SC guard who shot 47% from three point range?

The answer is not because "FGs within the arc are still a much higher percentage." Te-Hina scored 1.4 points per 3 point shot. The rest of her team scored 1.06 points per shot.

So why not just let her shoot more? Like a whole lot more? Wouldn't an extra .34 points per shot be a smart thing to do when she's shooting 47% from three?


Umm, yes. The reason more threes aren’t always a better option is because of the increased risk of taking them. And that increased risk is calculated for all of the reasons the percentage is lower than FGs from within the arc. That’s pretty much what increased risk entails.

You’re really going to argue this point?

Maybe Tehina didn’t wanna take as many threes because she wasn’t as confident and the percentage wasn’t acceptable to her and her teammates. While CC’s was. That is the guess I would hazard.




No, my point is that when you say, "Clark's shooting % isn't that great," and then compare it to other shooters who don't carry nearly the load that she does......like, not even in the same universe, it's not a fair comparison.

Clark isn't a "not that great of a percentage" 37% three point shooter who only scores a lot because she shoots a lot. She shoots 37% because she has teams completely strategize around how to stop her from scoring. If it wasn't up to her to carry her team, and she could just sit on the outside and wait for good opportunities, I have no doubt that she'd shoot 40-50% from that range.

That's what you're missing.


She is not the only player on that team that can score.

I would have set more shooting records too when I was playing if only the teams didn’t figure out a better way to defend me.

MJ would have had more dunks too if only the teams didn’t D him up as well.

I’m sure baseball hitters would have more doubles and triples if only the infield and outfield didn’t figure out their pulls and position themselves accordingly.


….is that what you’re saying? That CC would have more threes if only the other teams let her play out her strengths with less contention?

Because I’m saying that, like every other player on the court that has to contend with the same set of circumstances, Caitlin Clark’s three point percentage reflects what she was able to do given what the other team allowed her to do. She chose to pull up and shoot, a lot. And that opportunity cost means she wasn’t able to drive and dish as much which is also a strength of hers. So much so in fact that her entire teams had to adjust to the way she passes. Which led to her being one of the all time assist leaders.

So again, for the umpteenth time, yes she is an incredible shooter, no her three point percentage is not in the the top 200, yes she has significantly more three attempts than ANY other player in the top 20 all time leaderboard, and yes that is what contributed to her success outside the arc and what I feel is also a curse to deal with in the court.

EDIT: Also bottom 5 percentage out of the top 20 all time. Most attempts, most made, but 16th/20 in percentage. I stand by my comments on her pecentage and the percentage alone given her style of play and arsenal of abilities with the outcomes in the playoffs.

I’m done. If you want to continue to argue you can do it by yourself because oddly enough we agree on her as a player I believe.

If only she could just poach shots without someone defending her…::sigh::
Last edited by: Yeeper: May 10, 24 19:32
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
….is that what you’re saying? That CC would have more threes if only the other teams let her play out her strengths with less contention?


She would have a higher shooting percentage if she wasn't the star of the team (the star of the entire league, in fact).

Steve Kerr shot 44% from the three point line BECAUSE teams had to focus their defense around stopping Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. That allowed Steve Kerr to get uncontested three pointers. Kerr has the highest 3 point shooting percentage in league history and actually scored more per shot than Jordan. They didn't focus the offense around Steve Kerr because he wasn't that good. He wouldn't shoot anywhere near 44% if defense focused on him. It's why Jordan got paid $13 million in his last season and Kerr, with his 44% three point shooting percentage, got paid $750,000.

Clark, OTOH, has the entire defense focus on her the entire game, yet she still manages to shoot 37% from three point range. That's not just great, it's phenomenal. It's one of the reasons why she got drafted first and why most of the women with better 3 point percentages didn't get drafted at all.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
danica patrick... pioneer in her sport.... or??


Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
danica patrick... pioneer in her sport.... or??

No, not really.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
synthetic wrote:
danica patrick... pioneer in her sport.... or??


No, not really.

but look at at all the marketing hype she brought, according to SDG she is a pioneer.
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
https://www.espn.com/...-signature-shoe-nike

Wilson's shoe will be called "A'One."

Nike has named Wilson to the brand's roster of signature athletes -- a group featuring Serena Williams, Megan Rapinoe, Naomi Osaka and the New York Liberty's Sabrina Ionescu. The shoe and rest of Wilson's signature collection will arrive in 2025.

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
slowguy wrote:
synthetic wrote:
danica patrick... pioneer in her sport.... or??


No, not really.


but look at at all the marketing hype she brought, according to SDG she is a pioneer.

Yeah, I think we've well established that SDG doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RandMart wrote:
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/40125084/aces-star-aja-wilson-announces-signature-shoe-nike

Wilson's shoe will be called "A'One."

Nike has named Wilson to the brand's roster of signature athletes -- a group featuring Serena Williams, Megan Rapinoe, Naomi Osaka and the New York Liberty's Sabrina Ionescu. The shoe and rest of Wilson's signature collection will arrive in 2025.

"The long-anticipated news came Saturday morning as..."



The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CC creates her own shots. She an on the ball player. Steve Kerr (or whoever) are off the ball players. They don’t create their own shots.

We will never know how could CC would be off the ball as a set shot 3 point shooter because playing on the ball is so much more important.

But comparing the FG percentage of an on and off ball shooter is ridiculous. It’s like me saying I’m better than phelps because he swims the 50 m free coming home in the 200im home slower than my 50 free pb. A little context goes a long way!
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
An interesting note, on the subject of leagues taking advantage of windows of opportunity,…apparently the preseason games can only be seen if you have the WNBA League Pass? So rather than get their new star players out to the public and get the most advantage out of this time when people are interested, they’re hiding their games on an app?

I’m not sure that makes sense, but I don’t know how much of that was driven by previous broadcasting agreements. Seems like they could have gotten ESPN or someone to broadcast some of these games.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I don’t know how much of that was driven by previous broadcasting agreements.

I would guess 100% of it.

The media ecosystem is a mess anymore. I don't even know what I subscribe to or for what at this point.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
The media ecosystem is a mess anymore.

It is a mess. I'm a U.S. bike (pedal style) racing fan.

I have to get 3 streaming apps. Max, Peacock, and a shitshow called Flo in order to get coverage of all the bike races. I canceled Flo, by far the most expensive, out of rage for their constant spoilers when you're looking for a replay. So I pirate-watch any race licensed by Flo for the U.S.

Me for about the last 40 years: "Cable sucks! I don't want to pay for 180 channels when I watch 4, I want a-la-carte stations!"

Me now: "A a-la-carte sucks, I want the old cable back!!"
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
sphere wrote:

The media ecosystem is a mess anymore.


It is a mess. I'm a U.S. bike (pedal style) racing fan.

I have to get 3 streaming apps. Max, Peacock, and a shitshow called Flo in order to get coverage of all the bike races. I canceled Flo, by far the most expensive, out of rage for their constant spoilers when you're looking for a replay. So I pirate-watch any race licensed by Flo for the U.S.

Me for about the last 40 years: "Cable sucks! I don't want to pay for 180 channels when I watch 4, I want a-la-carte stations!"

Me now: "A a-la-carte sucks, I want the old cable back!!"

Yep. The streaming services are just another bunch of channels to add to your cable. They used to be ad free, but now that’s gone, so the only advantage is that you can pick what to watch and when. But to offset that, they limit what goes on their main channels and their streaming channels so that you have to pay for both if you want to see everything.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ajthomas wrote:
CC creates her own shots. She an on the ball player. Steve Kerr (or whoever) are off the ball players. They don’t create their own shots.

We will never know how could CC would be off the ball as a set shot 3 point shooter because playing on the ball is so much more important.

But comparing the FG percentage of an on and off ball shooter is ridiculous. It’s like me saying I’m better than phelps because he swims the 50 m free coming home in the 200im home slower than my 50 free pb. A little context goes a long way!

Thank you. Exactly the point I was trying to make.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Me for about the last 40 years: "Cable sucks! I don't want to pay for 180 channels when I watch 4, I want a-la-carte stations!"

Me now: "A a-la-carte sucks, I want the old cable back!!"

Forty years ago, within a MONTH - Born In The USA Era Bruce



"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply

Prev Next