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13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds
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Nah. They're not hypocrites for passing and taking PPP funds but opposing student loan forgiveness.


While I have some problems with the student loan forgiveness, I think that it is a better investment than the PPP program. Look at some of the dollar amounts received.

When this came out, my software business could have qualified for funds - but we all had other income and I thought that it was more important for the small mom-and-pop businesses to receive it. I should have known that there would be plenty of people obtaining the funds when they really shouldn't have.

. https://www.yahoo.com/...-debt-100025334.html




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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Who wrote the bill originating the program to forgive PPP loans?

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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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I had a discussion with a conservative friend over the weekend about this very thing. His position, and I assume the position of most conservatives, is the PPP loan need was not voluntarily created by the people that got the loans. They didn't cause the COVID outbreak and they didn't voluntarily shut the doors to their businesses. That was forced on them. The loans should have been grants from the very beginning.

Students that borrowed money to go to college had other options. They voluntarily took on that debt. They had other choices.

I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [spockman] [ In reply to ]
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spockman wrote:
Who wrote the bill originating the program to forgive PPP loans?

I'm not sure if that is a sincere question or an attempt to make a point.

According to Google it was: "Senators Shaheen, Collins and Cardin, along with Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL), authored the Paycheck Protection Program, which became law as part of the CARES Act last year.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).

I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?

_____
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Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
I had a discussion with a conservative friend over the weekend about this very thing. His position, and I assume the position of most conservatives, is the PPP loan need was not voluntarily created by the people that got the loans. They didn't cause the COVID outbreak and they didn't voluntarily shut the doors to their businesses. That was forced on them. The loans should have been grants from the very beginning.

No fan of Republicans here, but this hardly seems like a gotcha moment. Seems like two fundamentally different situations.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I had a discussion with a conservative friend over the weekend about this very thing. His position, and I assume the position of most conservatives, is the PPP loan need was not voluntarily created by the people that got the loans. They didn't cause the COVID outbreak and they didn't voluntarily shut the doors to their businesses. That was forced on them. The loans should have been grants from the very beginning.


No fan of Republicans here, but this hardly seems like a gotcha moment. Seems like two fundamentally different situations.

Starting the PPP loan program wasn't theoretically a bad thing.
Granting the loans wasn't theoretically a bad thing.

Forgiving them?
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?

Outside a tuition reimbursement employer program, I imagine it could be complicated for individuals to demonstrate college expenses relates to a business benefit, versus personal development.

I think it would be more straightforward to have college tuition payments be tax deductible in some form (or interest portions of loans, like mortgages). Regardless of ties to a business.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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scorpio516 wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I had a discussion with a conservative friend over the weekend about this very thing. His position, and I assume the position of most conservatives, is the PPP loan need was not voluntarily created by the people that got the loans. They didn't cause the COVID outbreak and they didn't voluntarily shut the doors to their businesses. That was forced on them. The loans should have been grants from the very beginning.


No fan of Republicans here, but this hardly seems like a gotcha moment. Seems like two fundamentally different situations.


Starting the PPP loan program wasn't theoretically a bad thing.
Granting the loans wasn't theoretically a bad thing.

Forgiving them?

I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:
I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.

Why would a company be at fault for following guidelines and getting their loan forgiven?

That, of course, isn't the question.

The real question is, why was it acceptable for you (royal you here) to get forgiveness but not students?

It's just more hypocrisy from the party of hypocrisy.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting! My former employer (a running shoe store) was told they didn't qualify for PPP. As a result, they had to terminate all but 2 employees. Meanwhile, there was plenty of money for these legislators.

The original student loan forgiveness program was limited to $10,000 for most people. That was only a small part of what many owed. It was never about forgiving their entire debt. College costs have increased vastly more than inflation for many years. The current system almost guarantees many will never get out of debt. One local state school has gone from an affordable commuter campus to a sprawling university with much higher costs. Colleges are spending lavishly while the students are mortgaging their futures to attend. Something is very wrong, and it's not just the loans.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
svennn wrote:

I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.


Why would a company be at fault for following guidelines and getting their loan forgiven?

That, of course, isn't the question.

The real question is, why was it acceptable for you (royal you here) to get forgiveness but not students?

It's just more hypocrisy from the party of hypocrisy.
I think it was well laid out earlier. PPP was basically an unemployment program to get the US through the disruption of Covid. Conservatives (and most people) have no problem with the US government bailing out individuals or companies during times of emergencies (see FEMA). Students going to college are not emergencies.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
svennn wrote:

I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.


Why would a company be at fault for following guidelines and getting their loan forgiven?

That, of course, isn't the question.

The real question is, why was it acceptable for you (royal you here) to get forgiveness but not students?

It's just more hypocrisy from the party of hypocrisy.

I'll give another answer that is relevant to me. They need to fix the cost structure of college before they can talk about forgiving past loans.

A lot of these schools are like giant country clubs, all financed by easy money in the form of loans. If you opted to get a low earning degree while living it up for 4 years, why should I pay for that? I saved for both of my kids but the cost increase has outpaced my ability to save. I told them anything over what was set aside is on them, choose wisely. I don't expect other tax payers to pay it off for them.

Conversely, no business asked to be shut down and have revenue killed by COVID. Local companies shut down for safety while Lowes and Home Depot were essential was utter BS. They deserved the PPP.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent points. Kinda makes you wonder if the repubs have any values that they actually believe and live. Or, if the party is now just one continuous grift: grab, take, and enrich yourself while the gettting is good and f*ck everything and everyone else. Including your country.


From the article you linked:

"In this case, the shiny object is the idea that it's Biden who is the hypocrite for comparing the PPP loans to student debt. This misses the bigger picture of how America's economy is structured to benefit corporations and the wealthy — that is, the patrons of the Republican political establishment — at the expense of average Americans. The pundits who are flaying the White House for making the connection are merely buying a GOP talking point."

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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
BLeP wrote:
svennn wrote:

I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.


Why would a company be at fault for following guidelines and getting their loan forgiven?

That, of course, isn't the question.

The real question is, why was it acceptable for you (royal you here) to get forgiveness but not students?

It's just more hypocrisy from the party of hypocrisy.
I think it was well laid out earlier. PPP was basically an unemployment program to get the US through the disruption of Covid. Conservatives (and most people) have no problem with the US government bailing out individuals or companies during times of emergencies (see FEMA). Students going to college are not emergencies.

I think there’s something to be said about the “situation” the govt has caused by being the cash-cow for institutions. We have seen tuitions rise at ridiculous rates along with COL and salaries not meeting inflation etc.

And professional organizations important for society require higher education terminal degrees…

Might not be an “emergency” in the sense of acute danger. But to say the proverbial 8 ball we are putting in front of our youth students is not a danger to their success and living is disingenuous.

I think the govt has a lot of the onus for what’s happened to create an unsustainable education market and rising waters for individuals.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]
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The original student loan forgiveness program was limited to $10,000 for most people. That was only a small part of what many owed.//

This is the part that is overlooked on both sides. I get that the right wants to promote "full loan" forgiveness, and the left wants to make it should like your "full loan" will be forgiven, but it really is just a fraction for most folks. I think the average loan was about $40k or so, and lots are above that average, some over $100k(I think 6% maybe)..


So technically if your loan was under the 10k or you were in the category that got a little more, then yes, your loan was forgiven. But even then you probably paid on it for 10 years first, so even that statement is not accurate...
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:



So technically if your loan was under the 10k or you were in the category that got a little more, then yes, your loan was forgiven. But even then you probably paid on it for 10 years first, so even that statement is not accurate...


Though my understanding is there's a category for full forgivness if you've been paying back a loan for 20 years (or 25 for grad school). That's a long time.

I agree with svenn that this should be tied to far more aggressive policy to tackle the underlying cost structure. Some good work has been done to go after very low value institutions, e.g. targeting veterans. Looking at you, DeVry. But it could be a lot more.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
In 2022, DeVry University was one of 153 institutions included in student loan cancellation due to alleged fraud. The class action was brought by a group of more than 200,000 student borrowers, assisted by the Project on Predatory Student Lending, part of the Legal Services Center of Harvard Law School. A settlement was approved in August 2022, stating that the schools on the list included "substantial misconduct by the listed schools, whether credibly alleged or in some instances proven."[74][75] In April 2023, the Supreme Court rejected a challenge to the settlement and allowed to proceed the debt cancellation due to alleged fraud.[76]


An example veteran defrauded:

Quote:
In March 2019, former DeVry student Eric Luongo was invited to testify before the House Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services, Education and Related Agencies about his experience at the university. Luongo, a disabled veteran, said he thought he would attend DeVry for free by using his GI Bill benefits. Luongo alleged that he was coerced into filling out federal loan paperwork and signing promissory notes. The result was that the veteran was left with over $100,000 in debt and a degree in graphic design that couldn't get him gainful employment.

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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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I consider myself a somewhat left leaning moderate. If I was in Congress I would have voted for PPP and against student loan forgiveness. I think there are much better long term structural solutions to fix the costs of higher education. I agree it is a problem, I just don't agree with that loan forgiveness as a solution.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a consolidated list of what businesses these folks own and how many employees they have etc?

Some receipts may have been legit, and did cover payroll for a small business. Some may have been X senator owns Y small business and also Z small business that owns the building X is in. If Z got $100,000 but has no actual payroll then it is total Bull, but if they paid payroll for business Y with it, I wouldn't get to twisted up over it.

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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
I consider myself a somewhat left leaning moderate. If I was in Congress I would have voted for PPP and against student loan forgiveness. I think there are much better long term structural solutions to fix the costs of higher education. I agree it is a problem, I just don't agree with that loan forgiveness as a solution.

I agree there are long term solutions that we should implement. But there is also a generation(?) of individuals drowning bc of it.

Gotta stop the bleeding too.

Also this new plan has to do with forgiving interest, not the principle if I’ve understood it correctly.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?

Interestingly, with some exceptions, anything your employer paid over $5,250 would be W-2 wages. So while you're employer may have been able to take the deduction as a business expense, you may have had to pay taxes on it as income. How's that?
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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RogerC39 wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Interestingly, with some exceptions, anything your employer paid over $5,250 would be W-2 wages. So while you're employer may have been able to take the deduction as a business expense, you may have had to pay taxes on it as income. How's that?


I didn't pay taxes on squat and it was well over $5250. They also paid for my Master's Degree and that was substantially over $5250. It was never on any tax documents or pay stubs at all.

I have no idea how it was done, I just went into the owner's office one day and said, "what can I do beyond what I'm already doing to make more money?" He gave me two options, travel more or go back to school. My wife said I was going back to school.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Outside a tuition reimbursement employer program, I imagine it could be complicated for individuals to demonstrate college expenses relates to a business benefit, versus personal development.

I think it would be more straightforward to have college tuition payments be tax deductible in some form (or interest portions of loans, like mortgages). Regardless of ties to a business.

This is perhaps a separate topic for a separate thread. I don't think that a comparison to a mortgage interest deduction is helpful, as that deduction arguably has been responsible for increased housing prices. It's disrupted the market where other targeted solutions may have been more helpful in getting people into homes. I think the student loan system as it exists has likewise been responsible for the increased price of college, along with the arms race in offering all kinds of unnecessary attractions and amenities in order to attract that loan money.

I would propose a (state) solution where free tuition for two years of community college is provided to anyone regardless of income level. (Students may still have to cover room and board, books and fees, etc., but there could be financial assistance there based on need.) If you obtain an associates degree with a 2.0 or above, then free tuition for the next two years at a state 4-year institution. If you can't get the degres within 2 or 4 years, then you pay or find coverage for the additional tuition costs. It would be a basic, solid, no-frills education. Doing this would require an honest investment in community and state colleges. We used to do this or something similar, and in California, the state schools were some of the best. (They still are, yet they're also extremely expensive.)

If you want to go straight to a 4-year state college or a private institution, then you figure out the financing on your own, either through private loans, financial assistance provided through the endowment, scholarships, etc.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?

Maybe that would work as a retroactive claim once you get a job for which your degree actually makes sense as contributing to your business? If you get an art history degree, and then go get a job in banking, did you really need that degree for the business? As anything that you put on your resume that an employer uses to sort applicants countable as a business expense, because you might not get the job without it? If so, are your clothes that you wear to interviews, and the printing or online services you use for resumes also business expenses?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Maybe that would work as a retroactive claim once you get a job for which your degree actually makes sense as contributing to your business? If you get an art history degree, and then go get a job in banking, did you really need that degree for the business? As anything that you put on your resume that an employer uses to sort applicants countable as a business expense, because you might not get the job without it? If so, are your clothes that you wear to interviews, and the printing or online services you use for resumes also business expenses?
I have a buddy who got a degree in literature who went to work in Microsoft and ended up in their division that works on printer drivers. He said he often benefited from his degree more than those who had computer science degrees.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
RogerC39 wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Interestingly, with some exceptions, anything your employer paid over $5,250 would be W-2 wages. So while you're employer may have been able to take the deduction as a business expense, you may have had to pay taxes on it as income. How's that?


I didn't pay taxes on squat and it was well over $5250. They also paid for my Master's Degree and that was substantially over $5250. It was never on any tax documents or pay stubs at all.

I have no idea how it was done, I just went into the owner's office one day and said, "what can I do beyond what I'm already doing to make more money?" He gave me two options, travel more or go back to school. My wife said I was going back to school.

The $5250 amount is for tax year 2023, and it's determined based on the amount paid during that year. They probably should have included it. But it's not surprising that they didn't.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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RogerC39 wrote:
I would propose a (state) solution where free tuition for two years of community college is provided to anyone regardless of income level. (Students may still have to cover room and board, books and fees, etc., but there could be financial assistance there based on need.) If you obtain an associates degree with a 2.0 or above, then free tuition for the next two years at a state 4-year institution. If you can't get the degres within 2 or 4 years, then you pay or find coverage for the additional tuition costs. It would be a basic, solid, no-frills education. Doing this would require an honest investment in community and state colleges. We used to do this or something similar, and in California, the state schools were some of the best. (They still are, yet they're also extremely expensive.)

If you want to go straight to a 4-year state college or a private institution, then you figure out the financing on your own, either through private loans, financial assistance provided through the endowment, scholarships, etc.
This (or some variant of this) is the way.

I would tighten up the requirements to 3.0 to go to the 4 year and possibly offer a path straight from highschool. If you have a 2.0 your support stops with your AA. I would also consider limits on the amount of free tuition being based on credits taken instead of absolute time to give flexibility for those who have to work part time. It would be interesting to know the difference in cost between this option and our current efforts combined with proposed loan forgiveness.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
slowguy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Maybe that would work as a retroactive claim once you get a job for which your degree actually makes sense as contributing to your business? If you get an art history degree, and then go get a job in banking, did you really need that degree for the business? As anything that you put on your resume that an employer uses to sort applicants countable as a business expense, because you might not get the job without it? If so, are your clothes that you wear to interviews, and the printing or online services you use for resumes also business expenses?
I have a buddy who got a degree in literature who went to work in Microsoft and ended up in their division that works on printer drivers. He said he often benefited from his degree more than those who had computer science degrees.


Yea there is quite a bit of truth to this especially with a BA.

My undergraduate degree is a BA in Philosophy and American Sign Language. However I was pre-med. I pursued my terminal degree in healthcare which was always the plan and I feel I had an excellent education which helps me in clinic and in life. I do understand mileage may vary.

But this goes back to an argument made previously in the topic that there should be some sort of qualification for your chosen degree and job market and how much the govt will get invested.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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You are talking about hypocrisy? They know they don't care as long as their voters don't notice.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Maybe that would work as a retroactive claim once you get a job for which your degree actually makes sense as contributing to your business? If you get an art history degree, and then go get a job in banking, did you really need that degree for the business? As anything that you put on your resume that an employer uses to sort applicants countable as a business expense, because you might not get the job without it? If so, are your clothes that you wear to interviews, and the printing or online services you use for resumes also business expenses?

They aren't business expenses, but I do believe you can write them off for job hunting. However, I don't know how that works if you're not unemployed.

I know many, many people who are working jobs and doing great who graduated with degrees nowhere near what they're doing. When most employers put down educational requirements, they just want to make sure you finished a degree, unless it's for a specific task. This isn't done for engineers, obviously. There are a ton of companies out there looking for entry level people and still requiring degrees.

What I find the most odd, the same people who bitch and moan about college degrees are also the ones who will not hire you if you don't have one.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
RogerC39 wrote:
I would propose a (state) solution where free tuition for two years of community college is provided to anyone regardless of income level. (Students may still have to cover room and board, books and fees, etc., but there could be financial assistance there based on need.) If you obtain an associates degree with a 2.0 or above, then free tuition for the next two years at a state 4-year institution. If you can't get the degres within 2 or 4 years, then you pay or find coverage for the additional tuition costs. It would be a basic, solid, no-frills education. Doing this would require an honest investment in community and state colleges. We used to do this or something similar, and in California, the state schools were some of the best. (They still are, yet they're also extremely expensive.)

If you want to go straight to a 4-year state college or a private institution, then you figure out the financing on your own, either through private loans, financial assistance provided through the endowment, scholarships, etc.

This (or some variant of this) is the way.

I would tighten up the requirements to 3.0 to go to the 4 year and possibly offer a path straight from highschool. If you have a 2.0 your support stops with your AA. I would also consider limits on the amount of free tuition being based on credits taken instead of absolute time to give flexibility for those who have to work part time. It would be interesting to know the difference in cost between this option and our current efforts combined with proposed loan forgiveness.

I'd be flexible with the GPA. I realized 2.0 was low, but I'm not sure if 3.0 is too high. It also makes sense for some flexibility on credit hours vs. years. So if 60 credit hours is the threshold for an AA, then pay for that, and perhaps up to 65/70 to provide some flexibility.

I really think it comes down to an interest in funding community colleges first and then 4-year state colleges, with education being the priority and extra curriculars being secondary. I think the AA and GPA requirement is enough to incentivize those who want to take advantage of the opportunity. It requires an upfront investment, but I suspect it's less costly overall than the current system, with or without forgiveness, defaults, etc.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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RogerC39 wrote:
torrey wrote:
RogerC39 wrote:
I would propose a (state) solution where free tuition for two years of community college is provided to anyone regardless of income level. (Students may still have to cover room and board, books and fees, etc., but there could be financial assistance there based on need.) If you obtain an associates degree with a 2.0 or above, then free tuition for the next two years at a state 4-year institution. If you can't get the degres within 2 or 4 years, then you pay or find coverage for the additional tuition costs. It would be a basic, solid, no-frills education. Doing this would require an honest investment in community and state colleges. We used to do this or something similar, and in California, the state schools were some of the best. (They still are, yet they're also extremely expensive.)

If you want to go straight to a 4-year state college or a private institution, then you figure out the financing on your own, either through private loans, financial assistance provided through the endowment, scholarships, etc.

This (or some variant of this) is the way.

I would tighten up the requirements to 3.0 to go to the 4 year and possibly offer a path straight from highschool. If you have a 2.0 your support stops with your AA. I would also consider limits on the amount of free tuition being based on credits taken instead of absolute time to give flexibility for those who have to work part time. It would be interesting to know the difference in cost between this option and our current efforts combined with proposed loan forgiveness.


I'd be flexible with the GPA. I realized 2.0 was low, but I'm not sure if 3.0 is too high. It also makes sense for some flexibility on credit hours vs. years. So if 60 credit hours is the threshold for an AA, then pay for that, and perhaps up to 65/70 to provide some flexibility.

I really think it comes down to an interest in funding community colleges first and then 4-year state colleges, with education being the priority and extra curriculars being secondary. I think the AA and GPA requirement is enough to incentivize those who want to take advantage of the opportunity. It requires an upfront investment, but I suspect it's less costly overall than the current system, with or without forgiveness, defaults, etc.

This would be a good plan, so it will never work.

I might go with 1 year at community college for 3.0 and 2 years if a 2.0. Give some incentive to do better. On the back side though, you would need to maintain a GPA for graduation. If you fall below, you start paying.

The bottom line though, we need to invest in people's education.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I know many, many people who are working jobs and doing great who graduated with degrees nowhere near what they're doing. When most employers put down educational requirements, they just want to make sure you finished a degree, unless it's for a specific task. This isn't done for engineers, obviously. There are a ton of companies out there looking for entry level people and still requiring degrees.

Seems like there's a difference between "I use this at my job" or "I'm better at my job because of this;" and "this is a requirement for this specific job."

So, if a person wants a job as an engineer, and gets an engineering degree because they know it's a prerequisite, and gets hired as an engineer, do they get to write off the degree as a business expense?

Or, if a person gets a degree in history because they know a degree, any degree, is going to be a check in the box as a hiring requirement, and they get hired to a job unrelated to history, do they get to write it off?

Or, if a person intends to be an engineer and gets an engineering degree, but then can't find an engineering job or decides instead to get a job teaching history, do they get to write it off?


I can see writing off college expenses as a business expense if you get a job, and the employer then sends you to school. It's tougher with the traditional path we've got where you go to college and then take your chances in the job market.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious as this is new to me.

Do people really want taxpayers to pay student loan debt?
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Quote:
I know many, many people who are working jobs and doing great who graduated with degrees nowhere near what they're doing. When most employers put down educational requirements, they just want to make sure you finished a degree, unless it's for a specific task. This isn't done for engineers, obviously. There are a ton of companies out there looking for entry level people and still requiring degrees.


Seems like there's a difference between "I use this at my job" or "I'm better at my job because of this;" and "this is a requirement for this specific job."

So, if a person wants a job as an engineer, and gets an engineering degree because they know it's a prerequisite, and gets hired as an engineer, do they get to write off the degree as a business expense?

Or, if a person gets a degree in history because they know a degree, any degree, is going to be a check in the box as a hiring requirement, and they get hired to a job unrelated to history, do they get to write it off?

Or, if a person intends to be an engineer and gets an engineering degree, but then can't find an engineering job or decides instead to get a job teaching history, do they get to write it off?


I can see writing off college expenses as a business expense if you get a job, and the employer then sends you to school. It's tougher with the traditional path we've got where you go to college and then take your chances in the job market.

I understand what you're saying, I'm looking at just being able to write off educational expenses as an individual, it wouldn't be classified as a business expense. People go to college to better themselves, businesses send you to college to better their business, what's the difference? Why is the business being able to write off education more important to the public good than a person who gets an education?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
Just curious as this is new to me.

Do people really want taxpayers to pay student loan debt?

Some yes, some no. If a person has paid back the original loan amount and now are basically just paying the interest, yes, I'm for forgiving that balance. Education should not be a for profit business, in my opinion. If there is going to be interest on the loan, it should be for only the amount it takes to service the loan.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
I know many, many people who are working jobs and doing great who graduated with degrees nowhere near what they're doing. When most employers put down educational requirements, they just want to make sure you finished a degree, unless it's for a specific task. This isn't done for engineers, obviously. There are a ton of companies out there looking for entry level people and still requiring degrees.


Seems like there's a difference between "I use this at my job" or "I'm better at my job because of this;" and "this is a requirement for this specific job."

So, if a person wants a job as an engineer, and gets an engineering degree because they know it's a prerequisite, and gets hired as an engineer, do they get to write off the degree as a business expense?

Or, if a person gets a degree in history because they know a degree, any degree, is going to be a check in the box as a hiring requirement, and they get hired to a job unrelated to history, do they get to write it off?

Or, if a person intends to be an engineer and gets an engineering degree, but then can't find an engineering job or decides instead to get a job teaching history, do they get to write it off?


I can see writing off college expenses as a business expense if you get a job, and the employer then sends you to school. It's tougher with the traditional path we've got where you go to college and then take your chances in the job market.


I understand what you're saying, I'm looking at just being able to write off educational expenses as an individual, it wouldn't be classified as a business expense. People go to college to better themselves, businesses send you to college to better their business, what's the difference? Why is the business being able to write off education more important to the public good than a person who gets an education?

Well, why don't we allow people to write off anything they do to better themselves? Go buy books? Write it off because being well read betters you. Take piano lessons? Write it off because it betters you.

I'm not sure it's workable, other than to skip logic and just declare it to be so.

We allow business to do some things because someone felt like it would help stimulate the economy. If someone could make an argument like that for college, then maybe all college would be free.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
If someone could make an argument like that for college, then maybe all college would be free.

I know you know this, but that can be pretty easily shown. A better educated population is a healthier happier population. Why should "free at the point of use" for education stop at public schools?

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
I know many, many people who are working jobs and doing great who graduated with degrees nowhere near what they're doing. When most employers put down educational requirements, they just want to make sure you finished a degree, unless it's for a specific task. This isn't done for engineers, obviously. There are a ton of companies out there looking for entry level people and still requiring degrees.


Seems like there's a difference between "I use this at my job" or "I'm better at my job because of this;" and "this is a requirement for this specific job."

So, if a person wants a job as an engineer, and gets an engineering degree because they know it's a prerequisite, and gets hired as an engineer, do they get to write off the degree as a business expense?

Or, if a person gets a degree in history because they know a degree, any degree, is going to be a check in the box as a hiring requirement, and they get hired to a job unrelated to history, do they get to write it off?

Or, if a person intends to be an engineer and gets an engineering degree, but then can't find an engineering job or decides instead to get a job teaching history, do they get to write it off?


I can see writing off college expenses as a business expense if you get a job, and the employer then sends you to school. It's tougher with the traditional path we've got where you go to college and then take your chances in the job market.


I understand what you're saying, I'm looking at just being able to write off educational expenses as an individual, it wouldn't be classified as a business expense. People go to college to better themselves, businesses send you to college to better their business, what's the difference? Why is the business being able to write off education more important to the public good than a person who gets an education?


Well, why don't we allow people to write off anything they do to better themselves? Go buy books? Write it off because being well read betters you. Take piano lessons? Write it off because it betters you.

I'm not sure it's workable, other than to skip logic and just declare it to be so.

We allow business to do some things because someone felt like it would help stimulate the economy. If someone could make an argument like that for college, then maybe all college would be free.

Because everything has limits. There can be logic to allow for a tax credit on education, doing so doesn't throw logic out the window.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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As much as I disagree with Republicans on pretty much everything, I can't call them hypocrites for supporting and benefitting from PPP while not supporting educational loan forgiveness. Apples and Oranges.

I will point out that the HUGE mistake in the design of the PPP loan program was that forgiveness should have been tied to actual business losses, or at the very least a decrease in profits during, let's say, 2020 and 2021. This could have been easily connected to tax filings. I have a business that had a mandatory closing in 2020, which resulted in very substantial losses that were somewhat offset by PPP. I also have friends whose businesses suffered little if any decrease in revenues or profitability, but who also received PPP funds that were ultimately forgiven, resulting in some really nice new cars....
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
I consider myself a somewhat left leaning moderate. If I was in Congress I would have voted for PPP and against student loan forgiveness. I think there are much better long term structural solutions to fix the costs of higher education. I agree it is a problem, I just don't agree with that loan forgiveness as a solution.

I tend to agree with you although I don't agree with the fifth circuit blocking loan forgiveness for students defrauded by schlock universities. These students were usually minorities or ex-military so who cares.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
spockman wrote:
Who wrote the bill originating the program to forgive PPP loans?


I'm not sure if that is a sincere question or an attempt to make a point.

According to Google it was: "Senators Shaheen, Collins and Cardin, along with Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL), authored the Paycheck Protection Program, which became law as part of the CARES Act last year.

I couldn't at all remember where the bill came from. I guess the intent of the bill was to keep people in their jobs by providing forgivable loans as long as the participants met their obligation to keep people employed. It seems that is different from forgiving loans after the fact whose original conditions intended they be repaid. Not that I think MTB isn't an idiot

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
Just curious as this is new to me.

Do people really want taxpayers to pay student loan debt?


Some yes, some no. If a person has paid back the original loan amount and now are basically just paying the interest, yes, I'm for forgiving that balance. Education should not be a for profit business, in my opinion. If there is going to be interest on the loan, it should be for only the amount it takes to service the loan.

Like most long term loan setups, it's the accruing interest that presents the crushing burden. And it gets ridiculously out of control. But loans should be paid back in principle and principal (pun intended, groan). I'm with you there.

On the question of taxpayers paying student loan debt, -- a variation is do we want taxpayers paying for student education. We currently pay for it now in school taxes and most don't have an issue as it's a social good. The school taxes are rightly deducted as taxes paid.

Part of the student loan problem is that folks that paid for college get screwed. There's no tax credit, benefit, to make that part fair. And in essence, they'll getting hit twice. For themselves and for others.
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
On the question of taxpayers paying student loan debt, -- a variation is do we want taxpayers paying for student education. We currently pay for it now in school taxes and most don't have an issue as it's a social good. The school taxes are rightly deducted as taxes paid.

A point of clarification - Trump and his republican buddies took that away from some people. I'm one of them.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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PPP was a govt response to the economic shut down. The govt forced businesses to shut their companies down and not work. If a small business took the loan they had very specific requirements laid out ahead of time for reimbursement. The purpose was that it would be a grant but they needed to make sure the rules were followed or they had to pay back the loan at 1% interest. It was only to be a loan to those that skirted the rules and requirements.

Student loans are loans people took out because they wanted a college degree. No loan forgiveness was offered other than the 20/25 years rule or certain other requirements such as certain time in a specific industry like Special Education teachers.

To even remotely compare government mandated business shutdown grants with personal loans taken out for college is utterly preposterous. It's not just a different ballpark it's a completely different game.

Quote:
PPP forgiveness requirements
You’re poised for PPP forgiveness when your small business meets the following requirements.

You spent PPP funds in 8 or 24 weeks
You need to account for where and when you spent each dollar in the forgiveness application. The December COVID-19 relief package allows PPP borrowers to choose to have their loan period cover eight or 24 weeks.

PPP recipients are asking themselves: Which is better? Since you don’t have to decide until you apply for forgiveness, run the forgiveness calculation using both periods. Choose whichever results in the higher forgiveness amount.

You met the 60% rule
PPP allows for full forgiveness when at least 60% of the PPP funds go toward eligible payroll costs (it had previously been 75%).

For full forgiveness, the remaining 40% must go toward:

Additional payroll costs
Mortgage interest
Rent
Utilities
Personal protective equipment and facility modification to help you comply with COVID-19 federal health and safety guidelines
Operating expenses for software, cloud computing services, and accounting
Essential payments to suppliers for your business’s operations
You might not recognize the last three items on the list above; the December stimulus package added them to the list of non-payroll-covered expenses.

Say your business received a $200,000 PPP loan; at least $120,000 must have gone toward eligible payroll costs. Simple enough, right? Wrong. The word “eligible” creates some mess.

If you’re a pass-through business owner, PPP loans are calculated based on your business’s 2019 net profits -- to account for owner compensation -- and average monthly employee payroll costs. The catch is earnings above $100,000 on an annualized basis were reduced to $100,000 for the calculation.

Say that one of your employees earns $125,000 annually. You could only count 80% of her wages toward the 60% payroll cost requirement ($100,000 limit Ă· $125,000 salary = 80% of total wages eligible for forgiveness).

Businesses that don’t pass the 60% rule can still apply for partial forgiveness. If you spend just $100,000 on payroll costs using the $200,000 PPP loan, the maximum forgiveness becomes $166,667 ($200,000 total loan ✕ [$100,000 used on payroll ÷ $120,000 allocated for payroll]).

You kept employees on the payroll
Legislators implemented the PPP to keep people employed during the pandemic. You need to bring your employee headcount back to pre-pandemic levels to receive full loan forgiveness.

The SBA calculates employee headcount using full-time equivalents (FTE), where a person who works 40 or more hours per week counts as one FTE. Someone who works 10 hours per week is 0.25 FTE (10 hours worked ÷ 40-hour workweek). Or you can opt for the SBA’s simplified FTE method by counting any part-time employee, regardless of hours worked, at 0.5 FTE.

Compare your FTE during the loan period to the average FTE during one of the following periods. If your FTE is the same as or higher than one of the periods below, you qualify for full payroll forgiveness:

Feb. 15, 2019, to June 30, 2019
Jan. 1, 2020, to Feb. 29, 2020
Your loan forgiveness drops when you don’t bring your FTE back to its pre-pandemic levels. For example, if you only rehire three of your four employees, your maximum forgiveness becomes 75% of the total loan amount.
You might qualify for full forgiveness if:

Safety requirements prevent you from returning to pre-pandemic operating levels.
Your headcount declines because of employees who are justifiably fired or voluntarily resign.
The SBA also cuts slack on rehiring employees:

You have until Dec. 31 to rehire employees laid off between Feb. 15 and April 26 due to the pandemic.
Employees who formally reject your written re-employment offer at the same pay and hours don’t count as staff reductions.
Your headcount isn’t affected by employees who ask for and are granted a reduction in working hours.

You didn’t reduce salaries and wages by more than 25%
For full forgiveness, employee salary and wages can’t fall below 75% of what they were when applying for the PPP. Any further reduction lowers the forgiveness amount. The wage reduction rule applies to employees whose annualized salaries are less than $100,000.

Say you were paying an employee $5,000 per month when you applied for the PPP loan. Financial circumstances led you to reduce his pay to $3,500 per month, a 30% decrease. The maximum wage reduction without penalty is 25%, which would’ve left him with $3,750 monthly.

Your forgiveness amount is reduced by $250 multiplied by your PPP loan period. If your PPP period is 24 weeks, the forgiveness amount is reduced by $1,500 ($250 additional monthly reduction âś• 6-month PPP period).

https://www.fool.com/...les/ppp-forgiveness/
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Re: 13 Republicans against Student loan forgiveness received PPP funds [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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RogerC39 wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
RogerC39 wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
AutomaticJack wrote:
I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).


I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?


Interestingly, with some exceptions, anything your employer paid over $5,250 would be W-2 wages. So while you're employer may have been able to take the deduction as a business expense, you may have had to pay taxes on it as income. How's that?


I didn't pay taxes on squat and it was well over $5250. They also paid for my Master's Degree and that was substantially over $5250. It was never on any tax documents or pay stubs at all.

I have no idea how it was done, I just went into the owner's office one day and said, "what can I do beyond what I'm already doing to make more money?" He gave me two options, travel more or go back to school. My wife said I was going back to school.

The $5250 amount is for tax year 2023, and it's determined based on the amount paid during that year. They probably should have included it. But it's not surprising that they didn't.

It also depends on when he went back to school. It hasn’t always been $5250. People used to get full grad degrees paid for.
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