Who wrote the bill originating the program to forgive PPP loans?

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I had a discussion with a conservative friend over the weekend about this very thing. His position, and I assume the position of most conservatives, is the PPP loan need was not voluntarily created by the people that got the loans. They didn't cause the COVID outbreak and they didn't voluntarily shut the doors to their businesses. That was forced on them. The loans should have been grants from the very beginning.

Students that borrowed money to go to college had other options. They voluntarily took on that debt. They had other choices.

I don't have strong feelings about either position. Personally, I think that money spent to further your career should be tax deductible. If you need a college degree to do what you do, then that is a business expense, and it costs should be tax deductible. Just like all the other things businesses deduct from their taxes (guilty as charged, by the way).

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I'm not sure if that is a sincere question or an attempt to make a point.

According to Google it was: "Senators Shaheen, Collins and Cardin, along with Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL), authored the Paycheck Protection Program, which became law as part of the CARES Act last year.

I agree. Since my employer paid for my college, they were able to deduct it as a business expense, why can't an individual do the same?

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

No fan of Republicans here, but this hardly seems like a gotcha moment. Seems like two fundamentally different situations.

Starting the PPP loan program wasn't theoretically a bad thing.
Granting the loans wasn't theoretically a bad thing.

Forgiving them?

Outside a tuition reimbursement employer program, I imagine it could be complicated for individuals to demonstrate college expenses relates to a business benefit, versus personal development.

I think it would be more straightforward to have college tuition payments be tax deductible in some form (or interest portions of loans, like mortgages). Regardless of ties to a business.

I managed our company application for forgiveness. It is very detailed and the requirements to qualify are specific and tied largely to your payroll. The big one being retaining employees and paying them. I'm not sure I could find fault for a company that followed the provided guidelines and had their loan forgiven.

Why would a company be at fault for following guidelines and getting their loan forgiven?

That, of course, isn't the question.

The real question is, why was it acceptable for you (royal you here) to get forgiveness but not students?

It's just more hypocrisy from the party of hypocrisy.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Interesting! My former employer (a running shoe store) was told they didn't qualify for PPP. As a result, they had to terminate all but 2 employees. Meanwhile, there was plenty of money for these legislators.

The original student loan forgiveness program was limited to $10,000 for most people. That was only a small part of what many owed. It was never about forgiving their entire debt. College costs have increased vastly more than inflation for many years. The current system almost guarantees many will never get out of debt. One local state school has gone from an affordable commuter campus to a sprawling university with much higher costs. Colleges are spending lavishly while the students are mortgaging their futures to attend. Something is very wrong, and it's not just the loans.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

Lots of fraud with PPP

https://www.arnoldporter.com/...es-act-fraud-tracker

I think it was well laid out earlier. PPP was basically an unemployment program to get the US through the disruption of Covid. Conservatives (and most people) have no problem with the US government bailing out individuals or companies during times of emergencies (see FEMA). Students going to college are not emergencies.

I'll give another answer that is relevant to me. They need to fix the cost structure of college before they can talk about forgiving past loans.

A lot of these schools are like giant country clubs, all financed by easy money in the form of loans. If you opted to get a low earning degree while living it up for 4 years, why should I pay for that? I saved for both of my kids but the cost increase has outpaced my ability to save. I told them anything over what was set aside is on them, choose wisely. I don't expect other tax payers to pay it off for them.

Conversely, no business asked to be shut down and have revenue killed by COVID. Local companies shut down for safety while Lowes and Home Depot were essential was utter BS. They deserved the PPP.

Excellent points. Kinda makes you wonder if the repubs have any values that they actually believe and live. Or, if the party is now just one continuous grift: grab, take, and enrich yourself while the gettting is good and f*ck everything and everyone else. Including your country.


From the article you linked:

"In this case, the shiny object is the idea that it's Biden who is the hypocrite for comparing the PPP loans to student debt. This misses the bigger picture of how America's economy is structured to benefit corporations and the wealthy — that is, the patrons of the Republican political establishment — at the expense of average Americans. The pundits who are flaying the White House for making the connection are merely buying a GOP talking point."

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I think there’s something to be said about the “situation” the govt has caused by being the cash-cow for institutions. We have seen tuitions rise at ridiculous rates along with COL and salaries not meeting inflation etc.

And professional organizations important for society require higher education terminal degrees…

Might not be an “emergency” in the sense of acute danger. But to say the proverbial 8 ball we are putting in front of our youth students is not a danger to their success and living is disingenuous.

I think the govt has a lot of the onus for what’s happened to create an unsustainable education market and rising waters for individuals.

The original student loan forgiveness program was limited to $10,000 for most people. That was only a small part of what many owed.//

This is the part that is overlooked on both sides. I get that the right wants to promote "full loan" forgiveness, and the left wants to make it should like your "full loan" will be forgiven, but it really is just a fraction for most folks. I think the average loan was about $40k or so, and lots are above that average, some over $100k(I think 6% maybe)..


So technically if your loan was under the 10k or you were in the category that got a little more, then yes, your loan was forgiven. But even then you probably paid on it for 10 years first, so even that statement is not accurate...

Though my understanding is there's a category for full forgivness if you've been paying back a loan for 20 years (or 25 for grad school). That's a long time.

I agree with svenn that this should be tied to far more aggressive policy to tackle the underlying cost structure. Some good work has been done to go after very low value institutions, e.g. targeting veterans. Looking at you, DeVry. But it could be a lot more.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

In 2022, DeVry University was one of 153 institutions included in student loan cancellation due to alleged fraud. The class action was brought by a group of more than 200,000 student borrowers, assisted by the Project on Predatory Student Lending, part of the Legal Services Center of Harvard Law School. A settlement was approved in August 2022, stating that the schools on the list included "substantial misconduct by the listed schools, whether credibly alleged or in some instances proven."[74][75] In April 2023, the Supreme Court rejected a challenge to the settlement and allowed to proceed the debt cancellation due to alleged fraud.[76]

An example veteran defrauded:

Quote:

In March 2019, former DeVry student Eric Luongo was invited to testify before the House Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services, Education and Related Agencies about his experience at the university. Luongo, a disabled veteran, said he thought he would attend DeVry for free by using his GI Bill benefits. Luongo alleged that he was coerced into filling out federal loan paperwork and signing promissory notes. The result was that the veteran was left with over $100,000 in debt and a degree in graphic design that couldn't get him gainful employment.

I consider myself a somewhat left leaning moderate. If I was in Congress I would have voted for PPP and against student loan forgiveness. I think there are much better long term structural solutions to fix the costs of higher education. I agree it is a problem, I just don't agree with that loan forgiveness as a solution.

Is there a consolidated list of what businesses these folks own and how many employees they have etc?

Some receipts may have been legit, and did cover payroll for a small business. Some may have been X senator owns Y small business and also Z small business that owns the building X is in. If Z got $100,000 but has no actual payroll then it is total Bull, but if they paid payroll for business Y with it, I wouldn't get to twisted up over it.

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I agree there are long term solutions that we should implement. But there is also a generation(?) of individuals drowning bc of it.

Gotta stop the bleeding too.

Also this new plan has to do with forgiving interest, not the principle if I’ve understood it correctly.

Interestingly, with some exceptions, anything your employer paid over $5,250 would be W-2 wages. So while you're employer may have been able to take the deduction as a business expense, you may have had to pay taxes on it as income. How's that?

I didn't pay taxes on squat and it was well over $5250. They also paid for my Master's Degree and that was substantially over $5250. It was never on any tax documents or pay stubs at all.

I have no idea how it was done, I just went into the owner's office one day and said, "what can I do beyond what I'm already doing to make more money?" He gave me two options, travel more or go back to school. My wife said I was going back to school.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

This is perhaps a separate topic for a separate thread. I don't think that a comparison to a mortgage interest deduction is helpful, as that deduction arguably has been responsible for increased housing prices. It's disrupted the market where other targeted solutions may have been more helpful in getting people into homes. I think the student loan system as it exists has likewise been responsible for the increased price of college, along with the arms race in offering all kinds of unnecessary attractions and amenities in order to attract that loan money.

I would propose a (state) solution where free tuition for two years of community college is provided to anyone regardless of income level. (Students may still have to cover room and board, books and fees, etc., but there could be financial assistance there based on need.) If you obtain an associates degree with a 2.0 or above, then free tuition for the next two years at a state 4-year institution. If you can't get the degres within 2 or 4 years, then you pay or find coverage for the additional tuition costs. It would be a basic, solid, no-frills education. Doing this would require an honest investment in community and state colleges. We used to do this or something similar, and in California, the state schools were some of the best. (They still are, yet they're also extremely expensive.)

If you want to go straight to a 4-year state college or a private institution, then you figure out the financing on your own, either through private loans, financial assistance provided through the endowment, scholarships, etc.

Maybe that would work as a retroactive claim once you get a job for which your degree actually makes sense as contributing to your business? If you get an art history degree, and then go get a job in banking, did you really need that degree for the business? As anything that you put on your resume that an employer uses to sort applicants countable as a business expense, because you might not get the job without it? If so, are your clothes that you wear to interviews, and the printing or online services you use for resumes also business expenses?

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Slowguy

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