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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [ayontz] [ In reply to ]
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ayontz wrote:
In regards to volatility and fluctuation, I read an article recently about Tesla accepting Bitcoin as payment for cars and what that means regarding lemon laws and refunds.


The effect is that Tesla doesn't really accept bitcoin. They just pretend to. When you choose Bitcoin, they convert the dollar price of the car to Bitcoin, and give you a 30-minute window to send the Bitcoin before the transaction is cancelled. They're that afraid of Bitcoin volatility. It is more complex than paying with cash, and there is no discount. No benefit that I can see, other than marketing/branding.
Last edited by: trail: Apr 13, 21 13:13
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think Musk is afraid of the volatility. I think its just not smart business to let the customer a get a freeroll on the purchase price when the bitcoin can go down 10% overnight. I don't think its any more complicated then that. He already has at least a 1/2 billion dollar gain on the Company's bitcoin holdings. If I recall correctly they bought it when it was less than 40000 per coin.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Abergili] [ In reply to ]
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Abergili wrote:
I don't think Musk is afraid of the volatility. I think its just not smart business to let the customer a get a freeroll on the purchase price when the bitcoin can go down 10% overnight.


What's the difference between those two?

They're adding a lot of complexity to protect Tesla from bitcoin volatility.
Last edited by: trail: Apr 13, 21 14:46
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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If you can’t see the difference I can’t help you
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Abergili] [ In reply to ]
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Abergili wrote:
If you can’t see the difference I can’t help you

No need to get all snippy! Maybe "concern" about volatility rather than "fear?"
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Klaus Daimler] [ In reply to ]
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Klaus Daimler wrote:
The comparison to currency is false. Currency is merely a medium of exchange. Its value cannot fluctuate and it cannot be perceived to have a positive value. Why would you spend your dollars if you thought they would be worth twice as much tomorrow? For this reason the appeal of bitcoin ensures its failure as a currency.

That said, bitcoin is a good way to pull assets out of the banking system. This absolutely has value. It is a better version of art or jewelry in this regard. Nevertheless unless you have enough bet worth that 2% is meaningful it is purely a speculative asset for you.

Some good insights. But why do you say better than art or jewelry? Certainly more liquid right now, but art and jewelry have stood the test of time as a store of value. Much lower possible downside than zero for cryptocurrencies. Looking back over the past 50 years, it seems harder to find a better asset than high-grade art works. And a some level the NFTs (which in my mind have a lot in common conceptually with cryptos) seem less speculative because they are leveraging the concept of artistic or unique works which has been such a proven store of value.

To the original question, I keep my dollar hedge in physical precious metals and am sitting out cryptos. The time to speculate was five years, when the downside was small. Now the stakes are dangerously high.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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It seems pretty easy to get ripped off in the art market unless you're an expert. Not to mention all the money laundering.

And as far as jewelry goes, diamonds are one of the biggest marketing scams ever perpetrated. Especially in the modern era where synthetics are indistinguishable from natural diamonds to the naked eye.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Klaus Daimler wrote:
The comparison to currency is false. Currency is merely a medium of exchange. Its value cannot fluctuate and it cannot be perceived to have a positive value. Why would you spend your dollars if you thought they would be worth twice as much tomorrow? For this reason the appeal of bitcoin ensures its failure as a currency.

That said, bitcoin is a good way to pull assets out of the banking system. This absolutely has value. It is a better version of art or jewelry in this regard. Nevertheless unless you have enough bet worth that 2% is meaningful it is purely a speculative asset for you.


Some good insights. But why do you say better than art or jewelry? Certainly more liquid right now, but art and jewelry have stood the test of time as a store of value. Much lower possible downside than zero for cryptocurrencies. Looking back over the past 50 years, it seems harder to find a better asset than high-grade art works. And a some level the NFTs (which in my mind have a lot in common conceptually with cryptos) seem less speculative because they are leveraging the concept of artistic or unique works which has been such a proven store of value.

To the original question, I keep my dollar hedge in physical precious metals and am sitting out cryptos. The time to speculate was five years, when the downside was small. Now the stakes are dangerously high.

I say art or jewelry because the real purpose of these is that they are non financial assets. The real value of a van goh or a da vinci is not that it is "great art." No, it is because it is a store of significant value that is outside the financial system. The fed cannot wake up tomorrow and inflate your asset away. The government cannot confiscate it by nationalizing the banks. The IRS cannot tax it out of existence. Further, it is timeless and can be sneaked around discretely unlike other non financial assets, notably land and real estate. This is the value proposition of high value art. It is a store of value that is not a financial asset.

The same is true for jewelry, gems, physical gold. Watches are my favorite: rolexes are the original bitcoin. Their value is extremely consistent and can be moved around and transacted with ease. Tell me the serial number and condition and I can tell you within 10% what a rolex is worth. You can hide a significant amount of capital in a small space with a box full of rolexes.

I say "better" because it is very liquid and can be hedged with futures. It prices instantly and transaction costs are relatively low. Provided you hold crypto in cold storage it is easier and cheaper to store. You do not run the risk of being defrauded on bitcoin.

PS: precious metals are a terrible currency hedge. Run a regression of gold vs. inflation. The correlation is 0. I suspect platinum is highly positively correlated because its greatest use is catalytic converters, the consumption of which is highly cyclical. Silver is an industrial metal. See my comment that gold is a religion not an asset. Its properties are taken on faith, not data.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [ayontz] [ In reply to ]
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ayontz wrote:
In regards to volatility and fluctuation, I read an article recently about Tesla accepting Bitcoin as payment for cars and what that means regarding lemon laws and refunds.
The fluctuation of Bitcoin value makes a straight up refund virtually impossible on Tesla's end.
If you paid $60k in Bitcoin for your Tesla and it turns out it's a lemon or you need a refund for any reason, Tesla has written in it's contracts that they will refund you in cash or Bitcoin, whichever they see fit.
In other words, if you buy your car for 1 Bitcoin and 30 days later it's a lemon, but the value of Bitcoin has risen $10k, Tesla won't refund you 1 bitcoin, they'll just cut you a check for the dollar amount paid. On the flip side, if Bitcoin drops $10k in that 30 days, they will almost certainly refund you your 1 Bitcoin leaving you less $10k and no car.

It'll be interesting to see how companies work through this if Bitcoin, or any other alt currency, wants to be a valid form of payment.



Also, don't forget that the IRS will treat the exchange of crypto as a reportable sale.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
It seems pretty easy to get ripped off in the art market unless you're an expert. Not to mention all the money laundering.

And as far as jewelry goes, diamonds are one of the biggest marketing scams ever perpetrated. Especially in the modern era where synthetics are indistinguishable from natural diamonds to the naked eye.

This is worthy of it's own thread discussion. There are some really good documentaries out there on this on DeBeers (i think) and the diamond syndicates and the marketing/advertising campaigns at the turn of the century to create the diamond demand as we know it. It is a complete manufactured an created demand.

The big litmus test is go buy a diamond at a store, then go try to re-sell it a month later. No one will buy it from you, even the jeweler that you purchased it from, except at a massive devalued discount.

.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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.... no discussion here on Coinbase listing today? Anyone buy in?
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Fraud is that bitcoin do not exist or you are sold phony bitcoin. You can have a high degree of confidence this is not the case if you are dealing with reputable cointerparties. More so than with art or jewelry.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Just the fucking dumbest thing going on


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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Klaus Daimler] [ In reply to ]
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Klaus Daimler wrote:

PS: precious metals are a terrible currency hedge. Run a regression of gold vs. inflation. The correlation is 0. I suspect platinum is highly positively correlated because its greatest use is catalytic converters, the consumption of which is highly cyclical. Silver is an industrial metal. See my comment that gold is a religion not an asset. Its properties are taken on faith, not data.

I dunno. My favorite example is if you took minimum wage in 1965 ($1.25), paid in 1965 (90% silver) quarters it would be around $20 today if you were still paid in 90% silver coins. Help me understand how that is a terrible currency hedge?

20 years ago the price of gold was $300/ounce. It's 6X now. Again, what maths are you using to conclude gold is a terrible hedge?
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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If gold were a good inflation hedge it would have done very little in the last 20 years since there has been very little inflation during that period. And yet gold price has moved with stocks. That would it imply that it is a financial asset, not an inflation hedge.


Run a regression of CPI vs. gold prices. There is not much of a relationship. The last 20 years is a bad time series because it was during this period that the ETF came out. Prior to this the only way you could own gold was to own physical gold. Now you own it like a stock and it trades on an exchange. This is actually very bad for gold since it is now a financial asset. The whole point of gold as a real asset is that it is not a financial asset. Well, now it is a financial asset.

If you are interested google "financial assets vs real assets."
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Klaus Daimler] [ In reply to ]
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Klaus Daimler wrote:
The comparison to currency is false. Currency is merely a medium of exchange. Its value cannot fluctuate and it cannot be perceived to have a positive value. Why would you spend your dollars if you thought they would be worth twice as much tomorrow? For this reason the appeal of bitcoin ensures its failure as a currency.

This is wrong, and I don't know how you can hold that up. Currency is more than a medium of exchange. Fiats fluctuate daily, and the value is derived from the social construct. Bitcoin and crypto as a whole will not be failure. I mean, how could you claim that it is a failure when people are out there today getting paid their salary in Bitcoin.

Gnothi Seauton.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think we are entering a watershed period, and anyone that ignores its significance will be in peril to catch up in the future. This period is like the early stages of the internet, in my opinion. How one does not recognize that this is a big change movement and disruption ... well, that doesn't make sense to me how it's not extremely obvious to someone. This is not going away. Choose to be a FUD at your own risk. I mean, there are already whole ecosystems that are developed and growing ... finance, interest growth, and credit.

Yet, to dive in just out of hype and excitement is equally ignorant to denying the significance. There is a bubble that's building. There will be significant consolidation in the future. But, there are technologies and constructs that are certainly better than others, and I think it is wise to really understand the technology. It is the technology and its application at the end of the day that will matter. Knowing where to put your resources will always matter.

Gnothi Seauton.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - multiple times. Building to be one of my largest holdings.

Gnothi Seauton.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Ready4Launch] [ In reply to ]
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Ready4Launch wrote:
Yes - multiple times. Building to be one of my largest holdings.


Meaning you bought multiple lots since opening this week?
Or you're among customers that have had an account with them and transacted often?

Looks like COIN is at $322 this morning.

Personally, I don't think this is just like any regular ipo/listing and the usual hype, but I'm not sure if it an industry game changer like AMZN was (i.e. became) when they launched.

Be interesting to watch at least.
Last edited by: 40-Tude: Apr 16, 21 5:51
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
Ready4Launch wrote:
Yes - multiple times. Building to be one of my largest holdings.


Meaning you bought multiple lots since opening this week?
Or you're among customers that have had an account with them and transacted often?

Looks like COIN is at $322 this morning.

Personally, I don't think this is just like any regular ipo/listing and the usual hype, but I'm not sure if it an industry game changer like AMZN was (i.e. became) when they launched.

Be interesting to watch at least.

Let's be real, when Amazon was selling books online nobody thought it would be what it is today. A lot of people thought that buying things online was crazy at the time.

That being said, it's pretty rare these days where a profitable company with enormous growth becomes public. Amazon didn't make a profit for a very, very long time.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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True. But perhaps it was only Bezos and a few others at that time always had the long term view beyond books. Most just saw books.

My point on Coinbase was that some analysts have viewed the valuations as unrealistic, their business model as unsustainable, the crypto field as questionable, etc. Others have argued that CB represents a landmark milestone point in the evolution of crypto, much like Amazon did for commerce/retail (though few realized that at the time).

Future will tell.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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I've made several stock purchases since listing, and have CB account for transactions.

Gnothi Seauton.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Ready4Launch] [ In reply to ]
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Ready4Launch wrote:
I think we are entering a watershed period, and anyone that ignores its significance will be in peril to catch up in the future. This period is like the early stages of the internet, in my opinion. How one does not recognize that this is a big change movement and disruption ... well, that doesn't make sense to me how it's not extremely obvious to someone. This is not going away. Choose to be a FUD at your own risk. I mean, there are already whole ecosystems that are developed and growing ... finance, interest growth, and credit.

Yet, to dive in just out of hype and excitement is equally ignorant to denying the significance. There is a bubble that's building. There will be significant consolidation in the future. But, there are technologies and constructs that are certainly better than others, and I think it is wise to really understand the technology. It is the technology and its application at the end of the day that will matter. Knowing where to put your resources will always matter.

Agree, it will be similar and it is very early in that cycle, but it's accelerating. Think back: scoffing at the uselessness of the crazy idea in the 1980s of "internet" when your kid was explaining to you about how she uses a dial-up modem to access bulletin boards to chat and fileshare. This is where we are now, kind of, with crypto and blockchain tech.

Blockchain technology (of which cryptocurrency/bitcoin is only part of the echosystem and usecases) will revolutionize many industries and be complete disruptors in certain areas, like traditional banking and FinTech. Decentralized Finance (DeFi) will turn these industries and process over and make them obsolete in the way they function today. They will be extinction level disruptors of current FinTech technology and processes. I don't know if that will be in 5, 10 or 20 years but it will happen. It is already happening, rapidly.

Imagine:
  • when all equity stocks transition to being on a blockchain and tradeable, dividends, stock splits are all handled instantly by smart contract directly to you.
  • not having to go through an Ameritrade/Fidelity to buy and sell stocks
  • buying and selling stocks peer to peer, instantly, decentralized
  • trading and transactional fees costing basically nothing
  • moving your own money around between financial institutions, globally and not having to pay a $30 wire fee and/or waiting 5-7 business days for it to go through
  • earning 5-10% interest on your liquid funds sitting in a "bank" instead of the 0.1% you currently get handed to you
  • lending your money out and earning that interest yourself, instead of the bank lending your funds out and not paying you a dime.
  • being able to send money to family and friends across the seas instantly and for just "pennies" cost

I'm just scratching the surface and not even being creative here. All just basic elementary stuff above. The idea of DeFi and Crypto scratches my libertarian itch in a good way also.

.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
Ready4Launch wrote:
I think we are entering a watershed period, and anyone that ignores its significance will be in peril to catch up in the future. This period is like the early stages of the internet, in my opinion. How one does not recognize that this is a big change movement and disruption ... well, that doesn't make sense to me how it's not extremely obvious to someone. This is not going away. Choose to be a FUD at your own risk. I mean, there are already whole ecosystems that are developed and growing ... finance, interest growth, and credit.

Yet, to dive in just out of hype and excitement is equally ignorant to denying the significance. There is a bubble that's building. There will be significant consolidation in the future. But, there are technologies and constructs that are certainly better than others, and I think it is wise to really understand the technology. It is the technology and its application at the end of the day that will matter. Knowing where to put your resources will always matter.


Agree, it will be similar and it is very early in that cycle, but it's accelerating. Think back: scoffing at the uselessness of the crazy idea in the 1980s of "internet" when your kid was explaining to you about how she uses a dial-up modem to access bulletin boards to chat and fileshare. This is where we are now, kind of, with crypto and blockchain tech.

Blockchain technology (of which cryptocurrency/bitcoin is only part of the echosystem and usecases) will revolutionize many industries and be complete disruptors in certain areas, like traditional banking and FinTech. Decentralized Finance (DeFi) will turn these industries and process over and make them obsolete in the way they function today. They will be extinction level disruptors of current FinTech technology and processes. I don't know if that will be in 5, 10 or 20 years but it will happen. It is already happening, rapidly.

Imagine:
  • when all equity stocks transition to being on a blockchain and tradeable, dividends, stock splits are all handled instantly by smart contract directly to you.
  • not having to go through an Ameritrade/Fidelity to buy and sell stocks
  • buying and selling stocks peer to peer, instantly, decentralized
  • trading and transactional fees costing basically nothing
  • moving your own money around between financial institutions, globally and not having to pay a $30 wire fee and/or waiting 5-7 business days for it to go through
  • earning 5-10% interest on your liquid funds sitting in a "bank" instead of the 0.1% you currently get handed to you
  • lending your money out and earning that interest yourself, instead of the bank lending your funds out and not paying you a dime.
  • being able to send money to family and friends across the seas instantly and for just "pennies" cost

I'm just scratching the surface and not even being creative here. All just basic elementary stuff above. The idea of DeFi and Crypto scratches my libertarian itch in a good way also.

.

Directly or indirectly most of those things will require proactive deregulation by the government. It's not clear to me that any government anywhere will be incentivized to facilitate the brave new world you're looking forward to and it's not clear to me that I want them to. That, to me, is the big distinction between blockchain and say Amazon. Amazon did something humdrum in a revolutionary way. The basic business model didn't require government buy-in. There are probably lots of applications of blockchain technology where the same is true. But we're not going to wake up tomorrow able to trade in stocks without oversight from SEC and all of the licensing and regulations that that entails just because blockchain might mean we theoretically could.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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