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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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A noted software engineer's compelling thoughts on crypto:

https://www.stephendiehl.com/.../against-crypto.html

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
A noted software engineer's compelling thoughts on crypto:

https://www.stephendiehl.com/.../against-crypto.html

That’s a good critique and captures a lot of my thoughts on the topic.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
A noted software engineer's compelling thoughts on crypto:

https://www.stephendiehl.com/.../against-crypto.html

That’s a good critique and captures a lot of my thoughts on the topic.

Yup, and this is another entry from him on crypto absurdity that is very good:
https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html

And there are these as well:
https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/blockchainism.html
https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/disconnect.html
https://www.stephendiehl.com/.../nothing-burger.html


Another problem with this mania is, much like the 2008 real estate crash, there are so many individuals and investment vehicles now, uh, "invested" in crypto, that when this bubble bursts, it is going to affect everybody, even those of us without a single penny in crypto.

When that happens,
Yikes.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
A noted software engineer's compelling thoughts on crypto:

https://www.stephendiehl.com/.../against-crypto.html


That’s a good critique and captures a lot of my thoughts on the topic.

Add that crypto, like all the other disinfo since, say, 2015, is an attack on our country's sovereignty and stability.

Or, you could view it as a hedge. There is no good time to stand up to incremental totalitarianism, by design, so there's a "first to market" advantage for people who give up their principles and get on board.

E

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I read the article and know nothing more about the currencies than I did before. I was talking with dan about this the other day, and I think that perhaps many of us are never going to understand many of the new technologies. I'm beginning to draw some parallel with some of it, like the purchase of these digital art works. At first it made no sense to me, because I just could not relate to what was being bought and sold.

Then I imagined that if it is possible(and seems so) that one can manufacture a one off digital piece of art, or capture a scene or picture of significance, then it could have value. Just like a Honus Wagner baseball card can fetch millions of dollars because of scarcity and relevance, then why not something digital? I of course do not understand it, or long for it, but perhaps most everyone under 40 gets it, and it is their baseball card, or Mona Lisa?

Perhaps all of us over 40 are not only going to be replaced by the younger generations, but our ideas and things we hold dear will also be replaced too. So not sure if crypto is part of that revolution, but I'm not so quick anymore to dismiss it, just because I dont understand it. In 30 years probably almost no one is going to use gasoline, or even own a car. Probably in person shopping will be basically gone, and stuff just shows up in your smart fridge each week. So much is gonna change, and really fast because of how quickly new tech is being developed. AI is going to reshape the entire world soon, so not a hard stretch to think that money as we know it will just be for collectors in the near future.

All I know for sure is I wish I had put a few 100 dollars into Bitcoin when it was pennies, and I remember that time very well. A sort of lark bet, skipping a months worth of Starbucks coffee's..
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, nothing new under the sun. You and especially Dan understand. It’s the great decentralization, money laundering, and proxy war rolled into one. Same as any other thing in the past.

Now, whatever Satoshi did was certainly genius, but we humans are using it for the same things we always did… power and influence, and a certain familiar attempt, historically speaking, to weaken institutions.

Dan talked to me once about fear and greed. Crypto, and the larger metaverse around it, is the same. I personally am considering it as a hedge out of fear.

E

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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It also *possible* that beanie babies and tulips will be worth enormous sums soon. But, if you read some of the other links, it is clear, that along with crypto, that possibility is vanishingly, vanishingly small.

Crypto is a zero sum game. If you make any money, you make it only at some other sucker's expense. Call me crazy, but that seems like not a great way to build wealth.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.


I don't claim to be a blockchain expert, maybe there is an application (other than crime,, etc). But, based on the opinion of much smarter folks than me (see links in post #105), crypto is most assuredly a ponzi scheme.

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jan 1, 22 15:56
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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crypto is most assuredly a ponzi scheme. //

Then how come when some Russians hack into sensitive computers and ask for a ransom, they ask for Bitcoin and not some wire transfer of dollars to a secret and secure account? I don't really understand what all is being bought and paid for with bitcoin, but certainly if enough people feel it has value, doesn't it? Isnt that true for all monies, its value derives from its perceived value? I know that is a very complicated equation, and we have as a world worked out a system to define currencies. But perhaps this is crypto's coming out party, and it will find itself the new dollars of the future. Or it will be histories tulips, I'm not putting much of a bet either way at the moment. Own coinbase, so don't have to know which ones survive, just that some do I suppose...
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.

Ok, but what does it do that is better than a conventional solution.

For example, money transfers. Electronic money transfers already exist and I can't see any reason that blockchain would do it anymore efficiently than conventional solutions. In fact, it will also be less efficient and require more waste. For example, if I want to transfer money from a Chase account to a Fidelity account, there are of course some tiny overhead for that. But wouldn't a blockchain need all that same exact overhead, plus an additional proof of work or proof of stake layer? It requires that additional layer and those layers must be some sort of pain, because if they did not require much work or stake, then they are not secure. So I can't see how it avoids being less efficient than conventional methods. Plus those banks have all sorts of regulations that make my money way more safe as a bonus.

Now it is true that the fees that conventional methods are higher than some blockchain methods, but that is because of a choice of the institutions, if they were under threat by the block chain, they could easily undercut the blockchain in money transfer fees. For one reason they could undercut it, they don't have to the whole wasteful layer of proof of work or proof of stake.

Bitcoin was super super clever, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with some actual use case that makes sense, beyond foreign remittances because banks are overcharging for money transfers. Because that use case will go away if banks choose it to go away.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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It’s a ponzi scheme insofar as for the value to go up, you need more “new” investors who are willing to pay more. Crypto currencies have no basis for value. There is no par value, so they are valued in the ether without reason. As Stephen Diehl wrote:

“Cryptocurrencies aren’t currencies and have no mechanism to ever become currencies. They are effectively unregulated securities where the only purpose of the products is price appreciation untethered to any economic activity. The only use case is gambling on the random price oscillations, attempting to buy low and sell high and cash out positions for wins in a real currency like dollars or euros. Yet crypto cannot create or destroy real money because unlike a stock there is no underlying company that generates income. So if you sell your crypto and make a profit in dollars, it’s exactly because a greater fool bought it at a higher price than you did. So every dollar that comes out of a cryptocurrency is because a later investor put a dollar in.”
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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You probably haven't read this:
https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html

Before they blow, some people make money in ponzi schemes. Even Russian gangsters.

But they are still ponzi schemes.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.


I don't claim to be a blockchain expert, maybe there is an application (other than crime,, etc). But, based on the opinion of much smarter folks than me (see links in post #105), crypto is most assuredly a ponzi scheme.

This is a Barry level post.

I'll dumb it down for you

Think of Block chain as the printing press. You can make a currency with it or you can print a book. Block chain has utility crypto currency is a scam
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Think of Block chain as the printing press. You can make a currency with it or you can print a book. Block chain has utility crypto currency is a scam

Thanks, but I understand blockchain, l am just not an *expert* in blockchain. Some folks, like you, are experts in everything (except changing light bulbs, etc.).

Yes, crypto is scam.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
windywave wrote:
Think of Block chain as the printing press. You can make a currency with it or you can print a book. Block chain has utility crypto currency is a scam


Thanks, but I understand blockchain, l am just not an *expert* in blockchain. Some folks, like you, are experts in everything (except changing light bulbs, etc.).

Yes, crypto is scam.


Or I have to have working knowledge of its basics and have a neighbor who fucking builds it
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
windywave wrote:
Think of Block chain as the printing press. You can make a currency with it or you can print a book. Block chain has utility crypto currency is a scam


Thanks, but I understand blockchain, l am just not an *expert* in blockchain. Some folks, like you, are experts in everything (except changing light bulbs, etc.).

Yes, crypto is scam.


Or I have to have working knowledge of its basics and have a neighbor who fucking builds it

I’m impressed by your use of the word “fucking” in that sentence.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, crypto is scam.

It's not a scam. It's just a very convenient tool ridiculous speculation. But I don't call it a true scam because there is no centrally organized "scam." It's just a bunch of people collectively acting kind of ridiculous.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, crypto is scam.

It's just a bunch of people collectively acting kind of ridiculous.

Like the progressive wing of the democratic party
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, crypto is scam.

It's not a scam. It's just a very convenient tool ridiculous speculation. But I don't call it a true scam because there is no centrally organized "scam." It's just a bunch of people collectively acting kind of ridiculous.

Good point, beanie babies were not a "scam" either. But they were a complete irrational ponzi-type frenzy. Just like crypto.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Link is behind a paywall, but the gist is that crypto-currency don't meet the criteria of money.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...bitcoin-just-say-no/

Quote:
Is bitcoin money? Well, it is not as it fails the three key functions of money: store of value, unit of account and medium of exchange. Given its extreme volatility, people are not holding bitcoin for long time to use it in the future.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.


Ok, but what does it do that is better than a conventional solution.

For example, money transfers. Electronic money transfers already exist and I can't see any reason that blockchain would do it anymore efficiently than conventional solutions. In fact, it will also be less efficient and require more waste. For example, if I want to transfer money from a Chase account to a Fidelity account, there are of course some tiny overhead for that. But wouldn't a blockchain need all that same exact overhead, plus an additional proof of work or proof of stake layer? It requires that additional layer and those layers must be some sort of pain, because if they did not require much work or stake, then they are not secure. So I can't see how it avoids being less efficient than conventional methods. Plus those banks have all sorts of regulations that make my money way more safe as a bonus.

Now it is true that the fees that conventional methods are higher than some blockchain methods, but that is because of a choice of the institutions, if they were under threat by the block chain, they could easily undercut the blockchain in money transfer fees. For one reason they could undercut it, they don't have to the whole wasteful layer of proof of work or proof of stake.

Bitcoin was super super clever, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with some actual use case that makes sense, beyond foreign remittances because banks are overcharging for money transfers. Because that use case will go away if banks choose it to go away.

The banking system is not free. They use your money to make money. That's why the transfers are low cost. You money is put to work.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
chaparral wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.


Ok, but what does it do that is better than a conventional solution.

For example, money transfers. Electronic money transfers already exist and I can't see any reason that blockchain would do it anymore efficiently than conventional solutions. In fact, it will also be less efficient and require more waste. For example, if I want to transfer money from a Chase account to a Fidelity account, there are of course some tiny overhead for that. But wouldn't a blockchain need all that same exact overhead, plus an additional proof of work or proof of stake layer? It requires that additional layer and those layers must be some sort of pain, because if they did not require much work or stake, then they are not secure. So I can't see how it avoids being less efficient than conventional methods. Plus those banks have all sorts of regulations that make my money way more safe as a bonus.

Now it is true that the fees that conventional methods are higher than some blockchain methods, but that is because of a choice of the institutions, if they were under threat by the block chain, they could easily undercut the blockchain in money transfer fees. For one reason they could undercut it, they don't have to the whole wasteful layer of proof of work or proof of stake.

Bitcoin was super super clever, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with some actual use case that makes sense, beyond foreign remittances because banks are overcharging for money transfers. Because that use case will go away if banks choose it to go away.


The banking system is not free. They use your money to make money. That's why the transfers are low cost. You money is put to work.

Ok, but you understand how that doesn't answer my question? Because you can just say that the people doing the proof of work on bitcoin are doing it for money also.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
chaparral wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
There are many things that crypto and blockchain can do other than wealth building. Digital contracts, licensing, money transfer, etc. It's not useless, that's the strength, the potential use cases.


Ok, but what does it do that is better than a conventional solution.

For example, money transfers. Electronic money transfers already exist and I can't see any reason that blockchain would do it anymore efficiently than conventional solutions. In fact, it will also be less efficient and require more waste. For example, if I want to transfer money from a Chase account to a Fidelity account, there are of course some tiny overhead for that. But wouldn't a blockchain need all that same exact overhead, plus an additional proof of work or proof of stake layer? It requires that additional layer and those layers must be some sort of pain, because if they did not require much work or stake, then they are not secure. So I can't see how it avoids being less efficient than conventional methods. Plus those banks have all sorts of regulations that make my money way more safe as a bonus.

Now it is true that the fees that conventional methods are higher than some blockchain methods, but that is because of a choice of the institutions, if they were under threat by the block chain, they could easily undercut the blockchain in money transfer fees. For one reason they could undercut it, they don't have to the whole wasteful layer of proof of work or proof of stake.

Bitcoin was super super clever, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with some actual use case that makes sense, beyond foreign remittances because banks are overcharging for money transfers. Because that use case will go away if banks choose it to go away.


The banking system is not free. They use your money to make money. That's why the transfers are low cost. You money is put to work.


Ok, but you understand how that doesn't answer my question? Because you can just say that the people doing the proof of work on bitcoin are doing it for money also.

The difference is that the the costs are known and very difficult to change without wide consensus.

And you're looking at it only from your perspective as a consumer. There are many things on the back end that are inefficient and unsafe that blockchain could improve on. If you go outside of the US financial system, things can get a lot more dicey.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
trail wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Yes, crypto is scam.


It's just a bunch of people collectively acting kind of ridiculous.


Like the progressive wing of the democratic party

Lauren Boebert, is that you?
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