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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Coming back into this conversation. Many are saying Bitcoin will go to 0 at some point, stabilize at some unknown price, or continue to soar.

So which do you think it will be and what will happen to get the result you think will happen over the long term?
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know enough about crypto to invest seriously but I know Matt Damon is trying really hard to make me feel like a coward for not jumping in.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Fundamentally, bitcoin (and other crypto) is essentially useless as a currency. So, if it is useless for that, then what is its usefulness?

The price will go to whatever crypto is useful for. If it is clearly not useful, then its price will go to zero. Might not happen yet, but that's where its gonna go eventually.


A remarkably prescient new HBO documentary about manias and ponzi frenzies, applies nicely to crypto as well. Trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lyUdABSHhs

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jan 1, 22 20:34
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Fundamentally, bitcoin (and other crypto) is essentially useless as a currency. So, if it is useless for that, then what is its usefulness?

The price will go to whatever crypto is useful for. If it is clearly not useful, then its price will go to zero. Might not happen yet, but that's where its gonna go eventually.


A remarkably prescient new HBO documentary about manias and ponzi frenzies, applies nicely to crypto as well. Trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lyUdABSHhs

You and the others in this thread are focusing too much on what it is today and not what it can be in the future.

You are also looking at this from your privileged lenses of sitting comfortably in the US with your US Dollars.

I found the article and especially if you go to that guys Twitter feed to be a bunch of myopic ranting.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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You'll get no argument from me that the Crypto and Blockchain space is the wild wild west, rife with speculation and scams. But there are also a lot of innovative and disruptive technology and applications that are being developed.

It is an apt comparison to the Dot.com boom.

You have the technology and future applications of dot com (the internet) and you also have the wildcat investment speculation part of that. I encourage you to keep them separated.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Fundamentally, bitcoin (and other crypto) is essentially useless as a currency. So, if it is useless for that, then what is its usefulness?

The price will go to whatever crypto is useful for. If it is clearly not useful, then its price will go to zero. Might not happen yet, but that's where its gonna go eventually.


A remarkably prescient new HBO documentary about manias and ponzi frenzies, applies nicely to crypto as well. Trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lyUdABSHhs

You and the others in this thread are focusing too much on what it is today and not what it can be in the future.

You are also looking at this from your privileged lenses of sitting comfortably in the US with your US Dollars.

I found the article and especially if you go to that guys Twitter feed to be a bunch of myopic ranting.

Interesting. I found his Twitter feed to be focused on crypto, but pretty normal.

Can you elaborate on how being in the US distorts the view of crypto? And Stephen Diehl is in England.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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The EU is the same... meaning they and the US has a fairly stable currency that can act as a relatively stable store of value... currently. But go talk the the person in Venezuela or Turkey on what their experience is with it.

ETA, the UK exited the EU, but same situation applies.
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Last edited by: Endo: Jan 2, 22 6:45
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Are you saying that a that people in those countries hold a lot of crypto, or just support the idea of crypto?

Can they buy regular stuff in those countries with crypto?

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I bet they wished they had easy access to a form of currency and a store of value. Their central currency is not one.

The reason a country's currency may not be stable could be from different reasons... economic collapse, civil war, external wars/invasions, the government running their printing press on high speed, poor centralized monetary or economic policy, etc..
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I bet they wished they had easy access to a form of currency and a store of value. Their central currency is not one.

The reason a country's currency may not be stable could be from different reasons... economic collapse, civil war, external wars/invasions, the government running their printing press on high speed, poor centralized monetary or economic policy, etc..

I completely agree that certain countries' currencies can be terrible for storing value. But the solution is to replace them with another "currency" that is also terrible at holding value ??

Not sure that is a solution.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Endo wrote:
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I bet they wished they had easy access to a form of currency and a store of value. Their central currency is not one.

The reason a country's currency may not be stable could be from different reasons... economic collapse, civil war, external wars/invasions, the government running their printing press on high speed, poor centralized monetary or economic policy, etc..

I completely agree that certain countries' currencies can be terrible for storing value. But the solution is to replace them with another "currency" that is also terrible at holding value ??

Not sure that is a solution.

Again, try to open your mind to not what it is today, but what could be in the future.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Endo wrote:
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I bet they wished they had easy access to a form of currency and a store of value. Their central currency is not one.

The reason a country's currency may not be stable could be from different reasons... economic collapse, civil war, external wars/invasions, the government running their printing press on high speed, poor centralized monetary or economic policy, etc..

I completely agree that certain countries' currencies can be terrible for storing value. But the solution is to replace them with another "currency" that is also terrible at holding value ??

Not sure that is a solution.

Again, try to open your mind to not what it is today, but what could be in the future.
That is a cop out response. You could say the same thing about currency. Open your mind and think not about the Venezuelan Bolivar today. That currency could really be something in the future. Just open up your mind.

Many crypto currencies are volatile because they aren9t pegged to a "stable" currency. The future is based on a stable currency, and that could mean USD, Euro, yuan, or even a crypto. But I would bet a hard currency is that future rather than crypto.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
l agree that certain countries' currencies can be terrible for storing value. But the solution is to replace them with another "currency" that is also terrible at holding value ??

Not sure that is a solution.

Again, try to open your mind to not what it is today, but what could be in the future.

Are there a lot of experts in software, crypto, currencies, and economics (but who have zero financial stake in crypto) who share this view?

If yes, can you share some links?

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that a that people in those countries hold a lot of crypto, or just support the idea of crypto?

Can they buy regular stuff in those countries with crypto?


It's still new. Think of the early days of email. Only a few people knew what is was and even fewer knew how to do it. Hardly anyone trusted it. Now it's nearly impossible to do business without it.

The traditional way to transact foreign countries outside the local currency is to use dollars. But dollars are heavily counterfeited in those areas. Dollars can also be stolen and seized. Also can be difficult to transfer large amounts. Crypto solves most of those problems.

El Salvador is a big test. It's the only country so far that you can officially crypto it as currency AFAIK.

As far as stability goes, I think China actually showed us how stable it actually is. It went from having the largest mining capability to banning it outright, and the price didn't move as one might have thought.
Last edited by: FishyJoe: Jan 2, 22 7:40
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]
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tigermilk wrote:
Endo wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Endo wrote:
No I'm not saying that. I'm saying I bet they wished they had easy access to a form of currency and a store of value. Their central currency is not one.

The reason a country's currency may not be stable could be from different reasons... economic collapse, civil war, external wars/invasions, the government running their printing press on high speed, poor centralized monetary or economic policy, etc..


I completely agree that certain countries' currencies can be terrible for storing value. But the solution is to replace them with another "currency" that is also terrible at holding value ??

Not sure that is a solution.


Again, try to open your mind to not what it is today, but what could be in the future.

That is a cop out response. You could say the same thing about currency. Open your mind and think not about the Venezuelan Bolivar today. That currency could really be something in the future. Just open up your mind.

Many crypto currencies are volatile because they aren9t pegged to a "stable" currency. The future is based on a stable currency, and that could mean USD, Euro, yuan, or even a crypto. But I would bet a hard currency is that future rather than crypto.


Your first paragraph is a nonsense reply.

Re the underlined: That is the whole point... meaning people want a currency that is not attached to a centralized government. You'll get no argument from me that all non-pegged cryptocurrencies are very volatile right now.
Last edited by: Endo: Jan 2, 22 7:40
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
crypto is most assuredly a ponzi scheme. //

Then how come when some Russians hack into sensitive computers and ask for a ransom, they ask for Bitcoin and not some wire transfer of dollars to a secret and secure account? I don't really understand what all is being bought and paid for with bitcoin, but certainly if enough people feel it has value, doesn't it? Isnt that true for all monies, its value derives from its perceived value? I know that is a very complicated equation, and we have as a world worked out a system to define currencies. But perhaps this is crypto's coming out party, and it will find itself the new dollars of the future. Or it will be histories tulips, I'm not putting much of a bet either way at the moment. Own coinbase, so don't have to know which ones survive, just that some do I suppose...

Criminals use it because it is much harder to trace, control, and seize than transactions that go through the banking system.

While criminals certainly do use it criminal activity is only a small portion of crypto transactions.
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that a that people in those countries hold a lot of crypto, or just support the idea of crypto?

Can they buy regular stuff in those countries with crypto?


It's still new. Think of the early days of email. Only a few people knew what is was and even fewer knew how to do it. Hardly anyone trusted it. Now it's nearly impossible to do business without it.

The traditional way to transact foreign countries outside the local currency is to use dollars. But dollars are heavily counterfeited in those areas. Dollars can also be stolen and seized. Also can be difficult to transfer large amounts. Crypto solves most of those problems.

El Salvador is a big test. It's the only country so far that you can officially crypto it as currency AFAIK.

As far as stability goes, I think China actually showed us how stable it actually is. It went from having the largest mining capability to banning it outright, and the price didn't move as one might have thought.

Maybe you are right. But are there a lot of experts in software, crypto, currencies, and economics (but who have zero financial stake in crypto--and this part is important) who share the view that crypto has huge possibilities as currency? If yes, can you share some links?

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that a that people in those countries hold a lot of crypto, or just support the idea of crypto?

Can they buy regular stuff in those countries with crypto?


It's still new. Think of the early days of email. Only a few people knew what is was and even fewer knew how to do it. Hardly anyone trusted it. Now it's nearly impossible to do business without it.

The traditional way to transact foreign countries outside the local currency is to use dollars. But dollars are heavily counterfeited in those areas. Dollars can also be stolen and seized. Also can be difficult to transfer large amounts. Crypto solves most of those problems.

El Salvador is a big test. It's the only country so far that you can officially crypto it as currency AFAIK.

As far as stability goes, I think China actually showed us how stable it actually is. It went from having the largest mining capability to banning it outright, and the price didn't move as one might have thought.


Maybe you are right. But are there a lot of experts in software, crypto, currencies, and economics (but who have zero financial stake in crypto--and this part is important) who share the view that crypto has huge possibilities as currency? If yes, can you share some links?

That's like the opposite of someone who puts their money where their mouth is. If someone has wealth and believes in crypto why would they not put any money into it?
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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Are you saying that "experts" that support a ponzi scheme (or other scheme) will always have their own money invested in the same said scheme?

This is an interesting point. But, then how does one circumvent this paradox to get truly objective input and advice?

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that "experts" that support a ponzi scheme (or other scheme) will always have their own money invested in the same said scheme?

This is an interesting point. But, then how does one circumvent this paradox to get truly objective input and advice?

You obviously have an agenda and fixed pre conceived opinion on it by asking a crypto question, but keep phrasing the echo system as a Ponzi scheme.

So what you are asking for are links to expert papers and articles from people who believe in crypto and blockchain technology, but just not strongly enough to actually invest in it.

Good luck with your search. You can use Google as well as anyone else can.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [Endo] [ In reply to ]
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Endo wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that "experts" that support a ponzi scheme (or other scheme) will always have their own money invested in the same said scheme?

This is an interesting point. But, then how does one circumvent this paradox to get truly objective input and advice?

You obviously have an agenda and fixed pre conceived opinion on it by asking a crypto question, but keep phrasing the echo system as a Ponzi scheme.

So what you are asking for are links to expert papers and articles from people who believe in crypto and blockchain technology, but just not strongly enough to actually invest in it.

Good luck with your search. You can use Google as well as anyone else can.

No agenda at all. Just trying to find and go with the most (relatively) objective evidence.

I acknowledged your point as a good one. But is there a way around the paradox that you posed? Serious question.

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Will do ...

What do you think of the link in post 103, and the links in post 105?

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Re: Where's everyone at with crypto? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Are you saying that "experts" that support a ponzi scheme (or other scheme) will always have their own money invested in the same said scheme?

This is an interesting point. But, then how does one circumvent this paradox to get truly objective input and advice?

Welcome to the financial world. Good luck finding your unicorn.
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