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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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hah. Oops, yes, stomachs are good at stating their personal boundaries. lol! I've done the same.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dr. Harrison,

I have a few more ultra-endurance fueling questions for you, if you don't mind. First, is there a limit to how many calories per hour the body can digest from real foods (maple syrup, Clif bars, pb&j, dried fruits, etc.) while biking? I posted the other day about a 7hr ride I did where I took in 435 calories/hour, and some quick calculations show me that I'm burning around 520cal/hr at the effort I'm riding. Is it possible to eat enough to break even and not be in a calorie deficit? In an ultra-long race (I'm training for a triple Ironman in June), would that be preferable/possible for the entire 40+ hours?

Similarly, before a regular Ironman I'd normally eat a big breakfast a few hours before racing - oatmeal, peanut butter, banana, Gatorade. For the triple I'm training for, would you also recommend having a breakfast a few hours before the start? Or since I'll be fueling so much and so continuously throughout the race, could I start the swim "fasted" after waking up and just start eating from there?

I hope you don't mind the questions - you're such an amazing and responsive source of information here, and your DIY carb drink has been a game-changer for my training for the past 14 months. I'm feeling better-fueled and healthier than ever. Thank you in advance!

Zack
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [Zacky] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Zack,
Thanks for the generously kind words. Glad to hear your fueling game is a strength now. :)

There is no fixed limit to the rate at which you can consume kcal while exercising. Chrissie Wellington famously did 500+ kcal per hour on the bike leg of her final win at world champs almost 20 years ago, under the tutelage of Dr. Asker Jeukendrup. And a fair bit of that was not carbs. Most was carbs, of course. But it's here in the forum somewhere. And IIRC there were close to 100kcal from fat and protein. I'm not sure if this was intentional, tbh.

Back to your question, yes, there is a balance of consumption and exercise rate where you can begin to out-consume your kcal burn. It sounds like you're already within 100kcal of that crossover, which is absolutely an advantage in a 40-hour continuous exercise feat. To maximize the kcal you can consume, minimize fiber for sure, and keep protein and fats near zero, too. Aim for just glucose and fructose sources.

For breakfast, yep, absolutely slam high-carb, high-palatability everything that you've consumed pre-training before race day.

In both cases - breakfast, and intra-race - hydration is a critical component of your gut tolerance and ability to digest large quantities of carbs quickly. A hydrated gut is a happy gut. This means it needs to be hydrated inside and out. The 'inside' hydration just means drinking fluid with carbs, always on race day. The "outside" aspect of gut hydration is just a reflection of your overall body hydration status. Get dehydrated and gut function is going to collapse substantially. It will hard to regain gut function once it's gone due to dehydration. It requires slowing down for a while, and pushing fluid and electrolytes sufficiently to regain hydration already lost on the trek. Not a good scenario.

If you find that you can get your fueling with 50kcal of race kcal burn rate, yeah you probably could perform almost identically with or without breakfast. I totally made that number up, and don't quote me. That said, here's an alternate strategy:
  • Wake up to the softest alarm possible & no lights on, 2.5-3 hours pre-race. Eat a couple hundred grams of tasty carbs with 16oz water & 500-1000mg sodium.
  • Go back to sleep immediately. Do not turn any lights on.
  • Wake up to a second alarm much closer to race time. As close as possible if you're trying to maximize pre-race sleep.
  • When your alarm goes off this second time, again consume carbs, water, and sodium, but this time, flip all the lights on immediately and don't stop consuming carbs, sodium, and water until you finish the race 40.5 hours later. :) Keep on sipping and consuming! Maybe an extra-big glug right before you dive in for your first real arm stroke in the swim leg. Goal: sustain your blood sugar, sodium and hydration as long through the swim as possible. :)


Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Apr 6, 24 11:58
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the reply! I just looked back at the nutrition I ate during my simulation ride last week, and in just those few hours I had around 80g of fat and 30g of fiber, and that's coming from what I'd traditionally consider (or at least what are marketed as) "workout" foods - pretzels, stroopwafels, Clif Bars, peanut butter, cereal treat bars, etc. You mention trying to keep protein and fat near zero, but how do you recommend doing that? I just can't see my body (or taste buds honestly) accepting 40 hours of sugar water, Sour Patch Kids, and Gatorade. Like I said, I love your DIY carb drink and I've used it alone for 100+ mile rides, but 336 miles is a different beast and I just don't see how it's possible to force myself to eat enough straight-carb foods, if that makes sense.
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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We need a few more TrainingPeaks-Saturday sync beta testers. Shoot me an email at support at saturdaymorning dot fit with "TrainingPeaks please" in it somewhere and I'll get you added.

We launch TrainingPeaks syncing publicly soon!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Can you update the Efs pro nutrition information to the new high carb mixture?

blog
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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This one? https://firstendurance.com/products/efspro

Do you know if the old EFS Pro still exists?

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
This one? https://firstendurance.com/products/efspro

Do you know if the old EFS Pro still exists?

Yes. I don’t believe the old Efs pro mixture is being sold anymore.

blog
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [] [ In reply to ]
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for those with a 2-bottle strategy in something like a 70.3 training, is it normal for the mix to have a really hard time dissolving? I pre-mix my bottles at night and even after giving them a good shake and leaving them overnight, there is still sediment in the bottom of the bottle in the morning. for reference this would be about 4 servings of gatorade OR two servings plus 3/8 cup of sugar

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a thread for questions, or should I just wait for approval to the member hub?

I tried the app this week and am cautiously optimistic after several very good days including a very good long ride.
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
for those with a 2-bottle strategy in something like a 70.3 training, is it normal for the mix to have a really hard time dissolving? I pre-mix my bottles at night and even after giving them a good shake and leaving them overnight, there is still sediment in the bottom of the bottle in the morning. for reference this would be about 4 servings of gatorade OR two servings plus 3/8 cup of sugar
If you’re prepping the night before, use hot tap water and shake vigorously before putting in fridge. More will dissolve and stay dissolved that way. Upper limit practically appears to be about 250-350g in a 1L bottle depending on temperature of water used during dissolving.

Alternatively, I’ll often just plan to top up that condensate bottle with more fresh water once I’ve consumed at least half of it, so that it’ll all go into solution.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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cdw wrote:
Do you have a thread for questions, or should I just wait for approval to the member hub?

I tried the app this week and am cautiously optimistic after several very good days including a very good long ride.

Here is great, or the member hub. You’ve been admitted now and either works great. I’m not sure what that user experience is like TBH. Did you get an email? Are you being bombarded with email notifications from Mighty now that you’ve joined hub there where we host it with them? I’m curious to any feedback you have there too.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: May 20, 24 18:39
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Doc - I had to take a break from the app for a bit, but I'm curious about the TrainingPeaks integration. Is the app able analyze the duration/intensity of the upcoming workouts and generate a customized nutrition plan for them?

E.g., it sees I have a short recovery ride and recommends 1 bottle with a small amount of nutrition. Then it sees I've got a 3 hour workout coming up with threshold intervals and recommends 4 bottles and a lot of nutrition.

Is that how it works?
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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I think I received one email saying I was admitted. I opted out of the other ones. I'm in week two of using the speed nectar every day and so far there have been no downsides. I was mostly interested in hard, race paced efforts and very long days. My first experiment was a four and half hour ride with a lot of climbing. I was recommended 112 oz with the corresponding amounts of sugar/salt and I mixed it up the night before. I was substituting at a location in the middle of all the climbs so I just stayed after school and staged from there. I think I came back twice for more drink.

On the negative side, I could just not keep downing the speed nectar by itself for 4.5 hours so I drank 20 oz of diet Mountain Dew when I stopped to fill up. On the positive side, I'm pretty sure I have never got that much drink down before in that short a period of time without feeling sick and sloshy in my belly. I managed close to 100 oz in 4.5 hours which is probably equal to what I got down in a couple of 7-9 hour rides I did preparing for and riding up Mauna Kea. I also managed about 1000 calories in that time which is also near the max of what I can eat in a seven hour ride with any other previous method. I had a very good threshold run workout on Tues, a significant PR on a 30+ min climb on Wednesday and then the aforementioned 4.5 hour ride on Friday. I was trying to see how long I could climb at 200 watts and I hit 180 minutes ride near the 4.5 hour mark and still felt lIke I could have kept going. This morning I mixed the recipe into a slightly watered down diet Mountain Dew and had my best run workout to date this year.

All that is to say that I am moving from cautiously optimistic to just plain optimistic. I've never done well at long events despite trying most everything. My recent use of rice cakes and rice crispy squares has been more effective than anything, but the speed nectar seems to work even better. I'm super curious if it helps at all in shorter stuff where I never take in calories or drink at all because I wanted to avoid stomach distress. I also noticed I was not as ravenous after the long ride as usual.

I think I already answered my own question by diving into the FAQs on the website and reading some labels. Flavoring this week has yielded some more palatable results, though usually it is not an issue for just one bottle before runs. I also ordered a couple of clear bottles I can mark to make the intake regular and some sodium nitrate. Once you have mixed a few bottles it is not that hard to figure out the concentration necessary, but I feel like I need to sign up to pay for a while simply because it has been so helpful.

Honestly, the biggest benefit has been experimenting with absolutely zero cost risk. I have sugar, I have salt and I'm training hard. This is my second week of the free trial and so far I've yet to have a bad workout. The day after the long ride, I got through my long run while chugging the speed nectar and though I did not feel awesome, I did not feel awful considering the previous day's ride and I did not experience any stomach distress either.
I'm super curious to see how it goes this weekend for my six-hour run/bike training. I'm going to try and pound the recommended amount and see if I can do it.

Thanks for the free two-week trial. One week could just be where I am in my training cycle. Two really good weeks and I may be convinced.
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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Good comment.

By the way. If you got through 7-9 hour rides on 1000 kcal (ca. 200 grams of carbs), that’s amazing. I couldn’t do a 4.5-hour one on this amount.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: Official App Feedback Thread For Saturday Users [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
Good comment.

By the way. If you got through 7-9 hour rides on 1000 kcal (ca. 200 grams of carbs), that’s amazing. I couldn’t do a 4.5-hour one on this amount.
Years of adaptation, I'm sure. My fat burning is probably off the charts, but it does not mean that I feel great after 4-5 hours, only that I don't keel over. I managed about 1200 calories up the Mauna Kea volcano for 7:15 of riding, but that was at an average of 145 watts. Being able to consume more calories than that at near-threshold pace is what is blowing my mind. The last three miles of Mauna Kea felt really tough since most of those calories were in the first five hours. Of course, it is hard to say if the problem at the end was calorie deficit or the fact that you are climbing a 14 percent grade above 13,000 feet with a 10 mph headwind. :(
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