From what I recall reading over the years, for the most part I accept all that you’re saying (not that it matters if I do or not).

Right or wrong I’m trying to understand their mindset beyond pure spite. If they’ve always been non-sporting then I think it’s less spite and more that they’d rather be doing something else. I could see how it could be perceived as an extension of ‘her time’’. Sometimes kids grow to love additional things upon exposure. Preferring to stay home to play sport could feel like a rejection of the person - which would hurt, depending on the person. I’m sure there’s compromises that could be found but understand they probably won’t ever get discussed.

I’m glad I’m not in that situation. My ex and I never moved on, and live 200m apart. Weve been walking dogs most mornings, spending Xmas with extended family and otherwise preoccupied with the issues with our oldest. As lonely as it feels at times, we are fortunate in many respects.

If he feels rejection, it’s probably because of his historic absence, his non involvement with them when they did live together, his decision to move three hours away, his failure to call them for weeks at a time, and his persistent M.O. of putting his agenda above theirs when it’s his custody weekend.

In contrast, mom and I are always there, supporting their activities, spending quality time, and building a happy home. My advice to him, if he would listen, would be to stop making his weekends about his agenda and actually plug into the kids’ lives, be willing to sacrifice for them without being forced to, and show genuine respect for the woman who loves and cares for them day in and day out. He chooses the opposite, and they feel it. So while my wife isn’t actively interfering or dissuading them from a relationship with him, she’s not actively working to foster one because she knows first hand what kind of person he is, and what he is and is not capable of.

If you’ve never dealt with a malignant narcissist personality type it’s hard to convey just how toxic they are, and why a mother who has children with them wants as little interaction with them as humanly possible. Counseling is pointless, negotiation is one sided, and you are always the target of their ire when they feel at a disadvantage or wronged, which is almost a constant.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

No experience with family court, or anything so bear with me. But where is the line, and the details, that can make a judge rule on something vs. a ruling being a judicial overreach?

Reading the posts about sports involvement, ATV's [ . . or substitute any other activity. . .] there are important nuances on these things that a judge just isn't privy to. Or are details intentionally made part of the case? But still.

Example - Youth sports can be good - for physical fitness, self-confidence, etc. But a particular sport/team/coach dynamic can be hugely negative that a kids' self-confidence is destroyed. Then sport is not good. Can a judge really rule that parent2 must keep the kid in sports? Or custodial parents have to curtail an activity? How does a judge have enough info (or time) to confidently rule that in your and your kid's particular circumstances, some activity is ok, or not ok?

Also, sometimes as a parent, it's within the parent's purview to decide what's good for the kid, no? This doesn't mean the kid's best interests aren't key. The ex might feel that instead of sports, a weekend language immersion in learning Latin, or Latvian, or native-country language or some other joint cultural outing is a better use of how he as a parent would like the kid (and him) to spend their time. Brain instead of brawn activity so to speak. (Ok, maybe this isn't his personality, as you've described it). Or maybe it's more that the ex doesn't want to take the kid to sports (that you've signed them up for) because it's a reminder that he's not in control over what he feels is best for the kid, on his time.

But can a judge really make the ruling that kid should do language/cultural immersion instead of sports on alternate weekends? That seems odd and a judicial overreach.

I guess, I don't think it should be the call of a judge. Too many nuances that can be important. Ideally it's all sets of parents [plus the kid] that come together and make these decisions. Yeah, but that's not the relationship you guys have here w/the ex. hence the situation. I don't envy you.

Hoping things turn out well, or as best as it can be.

A few things:

- was the current custody order signed before or after he moved 3 hours away?

- why did he move away?

These questions are important because a quick google search shows that you can’t change a custody order in VA unless there is a material change in circumstance.

If the move was after the order was set, it would be on the Ex to show that the move was in the best interest of the kids. Moving for a higher paying job would work, moving to be with the new woman? Not so much. It would be on him to show the benefit, on your wife to rebut. The reason will also dictate how understanding the judge will be.

If the current order was set after the move, I would ask for the petition be dismissed as there isn’t a change in circumstances.

Some more:

- with Joint Legal, the court assumes that both parents are perfectly capable. Basically, both parties need to get over themselves about what goes on at the other house as long as there is no abuse and neglect. Riding ATV’s and mini bikes isn’t this. My guess is the judge would ask a few questions such as are you supervising them and are they wearing helmets and then say OK, no problem!

- when a parent has every other weekend, it is incumbent on the custodial parent NOT to intrude on the other parent’s time because the non custodial parent has such little time. If both parents live close to each other, sports and stuff should be pretty easy to deal with. Three hours away? Signing up the kids for sports and activities in the custodial parent’s town and expecting the non custodial parent to take kids to games three hours away is just not reasonable and realistic, no matter the reason for the move and is another reason why divorce sux. A judge could view it as a punishment move by your wife for him moving away.

A 4D chess move would be for your wife to offer 50/50 shared if he lived within a 20 minute radius. His response would speak volumes of how sincere he really is.

I'm not going to take sides in this discussion, but doing stupid things are not limited to the fly over states when it comes to kids. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, Indiana, and we commonly rode snowmobiles, go-karts, mini-bikes, and ATVs. We shot guns. We rode in the back of pickups. We I was driving the farm truck (limited) at 12 and tractors long before that. Was it safe? Probably not, but it was life on the farm in the Midwest. Last I was there not much has changed. A few laws, some safety requirements, etc, but you still have kids doing adult things under limited adult supervision.

Now I live on Long Island in the burbs. We have kids that are riding bikes and skateboards in traffic not wearing helmets. We have those damn motorized scooters. We have kids that are in the park way past dark (closing time). We have abandoned houses, we have construction sites, and we have big shopping centers We have the homeless, drug dealers, perverts of all types, and occasionally gun violence. The kids are exposed to all of that.

My point is in the current world it is dangerous for unsupervised kids pretty much everywhere. If a parent is not involved and doesn't keep track of the kids, the middle of nowhere and the big city burbs are about equally dangerous.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Sorry youve got to go through this (again). I havent had any experience in divorse or family court and hopefully will never have to. But I've heard and read plenty of stories and I really don't understand it. So much of it doesnt make sense. I hope it works out as you seem to be better suited to provide for the kids in almost every aspect.

That being said, I didn't have anything to add until the vanity plate thread just came up. I never thought it was good or bad but cant argue with the stats if they say the risk is that high, but seeing your license plate on your bike I could see why he may have been pissed or why the courts might rule against the motorcycles and ATVs. A licence plate of "Trauma" doesn't convey a notion of safety.

Just a small observation. Not that you may be able to do anything about that now. Again, I hope it works out for you as best and quickly as possible.

So divorce doesn't suck but were sorry you have to go through this?

I really don't get the English language.

sorry I think divorce sucks, I don't know anyone who given the opportunity to do things differently would not do what they can to avoid the divorce, In some cases thats not get married in the first place.

I agree Assholes suck, but I know people who were not assholes, just couldn't get along and after 10 or 15 yrs got divorced with kids in their teens. Both parents were rational about it and tried their best to make it work. Both would agree, it sucked, it sucked worse cause there were kids, and with joint custody it sucked even more. At the same time, it didn't suck bad enough to give up custody, and staying together, would have sucked even more. But neither of them were assholes, just didn't get along and wanted different things, and had a good enough relationship to agree to split up.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

We're not, so far as I can tell, talking about extremes here. This isn't a kid who needs to travel for sports everyday. It's a kid who is playing normal kids sports with games/matches on the weekends, and an absent father who is refusing to accommodate those weekend games.

The whole point is that the parents shouldn't be forcing the kid to decide between normal healthy kid activities and seeing their parent. The parent should be flexible to accommodate those activities within reason. If the relationship is broken to the point where the kid is forced to make that choice, and indicates that they would prefer to do the sports, then forcing them to skip the sports certainly isn't going to strengthen the relationship. It'll just make them resent the parent who's making them miss their sports and time with their friends.

You can chalk it up to aggrieved parents if you like, but I'm not married and don't have kids, so I'm looking at this purely from the outside with the perspective of doing the best thing for the child.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I haven’t seen that thread in a while, so I’m not sure if the plate was given any context. I bought it with the payout money for unused leave at my trauma surgery job before moving to my new place of employment. I worked in emergency med and critical care since 1999, so I have a fair bit of experience in understanding the severity of injuries that can happen from motorcycles and ATVs. Since obtaining my drivers license in 1992, I’ve had zero motor vehicle accidents. Zero motorcycle accidents. And in triathlon training from sprint to Ironman, zero bicycle accidents. I would think my experience, safety record and knowledge base would carry more sway than what I choose to put on a vanity plate on a motorcycle that I ride occasionally. I could be wrong about that.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Yup, that's what I hear, and was my point. I know someone who basically got divorced before then honeymoon started, (not technically it took a month, but pretty much was over before it started, and never should have started) and I know the couple I mentioned above.

You can move on and have a great life, still doesn't change that the event doesn't suck.

You do have me very interested in how the court handles all this. Hopefully swiftly and fairly. But as I said before, he will find other ways to be a pain, seems like what he wants to do. Not ready to move on, probably pissed and jealous that she has moved on and doing well.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Careful - you are starting to cross your boundaries here and reading between the lines, you may be starting to become too invested in a situation that is between your wife and her ex. This is her battle to fight. I don’t know you or the ex or your wife, but I do have 15 years experience in family court hell - I can’t opine whether Dad is toxic or not, I’m just applying my experiences to what I’m reading.

The kids are with their dad 4 days out of the month. It’s his call what he does with the kids on his time. If he doesn’t want to drive the kids 3 hours on his time for them to play sports that you and your wife signed them up for, you need to let it go. You’re starting to sound like that you want the ex to fit with YOUR lives on his weekends.

going to assume this metric and 200 meters, not 200 miles, I mean them would be some long walks for the dogs.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Most reasoned response, yet. I have been wondering about the motivation for the 3hr move (especially after the part of he is renting, and owns a house in town)

The 4D chess move is an interesting, one. But this guy could be just enough of an arse, to say, yeah okay, even if he doesn't want the kids, and in the end does nothing with them, the week he has them, you know to spite the wife.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Our state is a rebuttable presumption of 50/50 shared custody. In my experience, this is the best way as it keeps both parents engaged in all aspects of the kids vs the traditional every other weekend. In my case, we had 50/50 shared, 3 years in my ex moved 90 minutes away. My ex suggested that I get every other weekend to the judge as she felt it was in the best interest of the kids. The judge then said:

“ you wouldn’t have any issue than if I gave dad primary residency with you seeing the kids every other weekend?” My ex lost her 💩.

Here’s my experience with family court ( and I think I have had overall had good outcomes):

- Courts are very, very hesitant to make changes to agreements absent abuse or another parent moving. This means going to the judge because you don’t like the kids riding ATV’s with the other parent means all you will do is P/O the judge.

- when a parent moves, the court will bend over backwards to keep the kids with mom. When my ex moved, she was found in contempt for not getting court’s permission to move since it was 90 minutes away. When you read the judge’s decision and discussion, you would have thought my ex would have been lucky to see the kids. On the last page, he actually said since dad works, and mom doesn’t, it was in the best interest of the kids to live with mom.

- what dad wants or what mom wants doesn’t really matter. At the end of the day the judge is looking at it from what’s in the best interest of the kids.

You explained yourself well there in that thread. And I understand why you chose that plate, and I also understand that a vanity plate is just that. And that it has no bearing on you.

You can accidentally splash water on your pants but everyone else is just going to think you pissed yourself.

Unfortunately the only thing that matters is perception. And if he is going to court to try and convince a judge that the vehicles and actions are unsafe then your chosen license plate (regardless of motivation) that says TRAUMA is not going to tip the scales toward safety. That’s all I was saying. Even despite your impeccable driving record; that’s the stupid part.

As I said before, I am in an identical custody arrangement with my ex and what I suggest he needs to do for his kids and their relationship is exactly how I navigate mine. It isn’t convenient and it costs me time at home and money I would rather not spend. It’s really fucking difficult actually but I owe that to my kids, to be there for them and their lives, not just abduct them from theirs every other weekend.

It doesn’t change our schedule or increase our convenience one iota to have him here in town, where he owns a home. He already drives here to pick them up, it only requires spending Friday night in that local home and driving back to his rental house after the Saturday morning game. He refuses. It literally changes nothing but for the kids, who already don’t like going there because of the drive and their life and activities here. Believe me when I say that the sooner he vacates the area the happier we are.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I can't help, but I'm sorry you're dealing with all this.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Family lawyer here.

I’ve read this thread on and off since yesterday and can’t recall some (most?) of the specifics and don’t have time to re-read it all.

When the father moved away, were the children playing the sports on the weekend?

If they were enrolled int he sports after the move, when the mother enrolled the children in sports did she seek to discuss this with the father before doing so? As she would have known that these sports could impact upon the time their father has with them, when he lives so far away.

What time do the sports occur on the weekend?

How long does the father get them for? Ie days and times and how often.

That’s since splitting. Back when there was love? Well I would walk 500 miles…

Boom Ching

Divorce: Everyone loves themselves most but want others to love them more than they love themselves. "To children, the voluntary separation of parents seems worse than their deaths precisely because it is voluntary---children do not realise that parents have right to their own lives; they think they have a right to total attention and they believe their parents must live for them. The sense of capriciousness and lack of direction to the common good seems a great injustice."

Allan Bloom wrote that about divorce in "The Closing of the American Mind" It is kinda hard to read.

https://www.demographic-research.org/...s/vol46/20/46-20.pdf

I think which is worse will be debated forever but divorce sucks. I feel bad for everybody going through it.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Why did you move so far away from your kids that if something is going on at their your kid’s mother’s house you need to stay at a hotel?


Personally, I think you are taking your situation and the fact that it works for you and thinking someone else in a similar situation would be ok with it. You need to disengage and let your wife handle it.

When a parent only has their kid 5% of the time, they are not a parent, they are an occasional visitor in their own children’s lives.

It’s not you or your wife’s call on what her ex does with the kids on his time. He has the kids 4-6 days a month. If a good portion of that time is spent at soccer games (where you and mom would probably attend), sleep overs where you or mom are good friends with the parents, etc, that’s not quality time with dad.

It’s very disingenuous for the parent who has the kids 95% of the time to complain about the other parent’s time just being “fun and games”. Guess what, your wife most likely ASKED for that arrangement!

Let’s say the ex moved back into the rental house. Would your wife be OK with the kids living with dad half the time since he’s local? Be honest.

Good for your wife’s ex for asking that she be imputed income for child support if she doesn’t work. That is the child support law in most states. Why should her ex pay more money in child support if she doesn’t work?

“When the father moved away, were the children playing the sports on the weekend?”

They were <1, 4, and 6 at the time, so no.

“If they were enrolled int he sports after the move, when the mother enrolled the children in sports did she seek to discuss this with the father before doing so? As she would have known that these sports could impact upon the time their father has with them, when he lives so far away.”

Communication between them was best avoided for years due to his abusive behavior and a military imposed restraining order by his CO. As the custodial parent she is permitted to make recreational decisions without his input.

“What time do the sports occur on the weekend?”

Typically Saturday morning, finishes by noon.

“How long does the father get them for? Ie days and times and how often.”

Every other weekend, 2 weeks in the summer, alternate annual schedule for holidays, a week at spring break, 10 days at Christmas break. Additional time throughout the year when requested.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

GROAN..

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

In my jurisdiction, enrolling the children in sports etc is a guardianship decision, particularly when it impacts upon the other parent's time with the children. Consultation and agreement would be required before enrolling them in an activity which occurs during the other parent's contact with their children.

So, in my view, the mother should have consulted with the father about the sports before enrolling them knowing that this was going to impact upon his time with them. No wonder he is a bit mad about this...

It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.

The father is getting a decent amount of time in school term for living 3 hours away in my view. Which is good if the children can deal with the travel.

How does the travel (6 hours every second weekend) affect the children?

There are so many incorrect assumptions here I don’t know where to begin or if it’s worth the effort.

“ You need to disengage and let your wife handle it.”

My opinions are consistent with hers and the years of abuse and gaslighting make it extremely difficult for her to manage these issues alone without emotional overload. If you’re lucky enough to have never experienced that, maybe just leave that alone.

“ When a parent only has their kid 5% of the time, they are not a parent, they are an occasional visitor in their own children’s lives.”

Again, no. I talk with my kids twice a day every day we’re not physically together, help with homework, troubleshoot problems etc. it’s not like being in the home but the relationship is what I make of it as it is living under the same roof.

“It’s not you or your wife’s call on what her ex does with the kids on his time. He has the kids 4-6 days a month.”

We are not trying to force him to do anything. I’m saying that if he wants to improve his relationship and not cause resentment he needs to change course. We see how he operates and how it affects the kids. They resent being taken 3h away every time they see him and that he won’t support them in their extracurriculars here. We are not petitioning to change that, but we will ask the court to continue to allow them to play sports even if he requires them to miss half of their games. Half is better than none.

“ a good portion of that time is spent at soccer games (where you and mom would probably attend), sleep overs where you or mom are good friends with the parents, etc, that’s not quality time with dad.”

He sends his kids to sleepovers at his neighbors house routinely. We are not close with any of the parents our kids hang out with.

“It’s very disingenuous for the parent who has the kids 95% of the time to complain about the other parent’s time just being “fun and games”.”

We’ve asked him to help with the kids homework over the weekend multiple times. Not a single time has it happened. I don’t know why you think you know so much about our situation as though we don’t have years of experience dealing with it.

“ Guess what, your wife most likely ASKED for that arrangement!”

Wrong. He asked for LESS time than was offered because he didn’t want to be obligated to it. Now he’s remarried and retired and wants to make changes that benefit him and have her pay his lawyer fees for the privilege. But keep on telling me what you know about our situation.

“Let’s say the ex moved back into the rental house. Would your wife be OK with the kids living with dad half the time since he’s local? Be honest.”


Probably not because he’s a habitual liar who’s destroyed any chance for a trusting coparenting relationship. That’s not an opinion. He got his ass handed to him in civil and military court for his bad behavior and nearly lost his career in addition to his family because of it.

“Good for your wife’s ex for asking that she be imputed income for child support if she doesn’t work.”

She does work part time in addition to her raising the kids full time. Yes, good on him for expecting her to work full time as well while raising his kids just so he can be off the hook for the cost of raising them, while bringing in $180k himself. Bravo.

Oh, and in that same conversation he suggested that my wife’s 70 year old parents could provide free childcare while she works full time so he shouldn’t be required to pay child care expenses either. Good for him, right?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W