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Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions
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Yes, I know a lawyer in our state is best suited to answer these questions, and we are meeting with him this week, but I'm curious if anyone has personal experience with how judges tend to rule on these issues. My wife has been served papers to appear in a custody hearing because her ex wants to change the formerly agreed upon custody schedule, and wants to air some grievances before the court. Keeping this as short and focused as possible, the issues detailed in the summons are:

- He wants additional time in the summer (a reasonable request in the absence context), however he has made it clear that he will not spend his weekends or weeks with the kids where they live and participate in sports, family events, sleepovers etc and has only been motivated to take a child to their game when I offered to skip the first half of my shift and drive the child to his home the following day because he was unwilling to do so, and we did not want him to miss his first ever basketball game. Every other time one of the kids has requested to stay home or for him to take them he has scolded her for signing the kids up for activities on his weekend, meaning he does not want them playing sports or anything with a weekend commitment because he does not plan on supporting those activities here. He has said explicitly that if she does it is her obligation to "manage their expectations" about missing every other game as they always fall on weekends.

- He is complaining that he cannot choose whichever dates he pleases around the holiday (he views his 7 days as immutable and tells her when they will be with him rather than coordinate with her and take the kids' local family schedule and other events into consideration). They alternate Christmas Eve and Christmas day but the rest of their 3+ weeks off from school is in play here. She has asked him every year since divorce to contact her in advance of making plans so they can work out an agreeable schedule but he refuses to do so, and defaults to telling her when he will be taking them. He did not say how he wants to resolve this in the complaint, only that they "cannot agree" on this issue.

- He is complaining that the 4.5yo calls me "Dada" and is upset that she "either encourages it or does not discourage it." I have raised the boy on a full time basis since he was a year old, when the father had next to no involvement in his life for nearly 2 years. Additionally, he has all three kids call his new wife "Mama (X)" and the hypocrisy of his complaint, when he asked why the boy calls me Dada, has gone unaddressed. I'm not sure what the point of bringing this before a judge is but to attempt to make mom look like she's trying to drive a wedge between them.

- He moved from rural VA to the far side of the DC beltway, nearly 3h from where the kids live. The judge ruled that he is responsible for transportation on his visitation weekends; we offer to drive on occasion when our work schedule makes that feasible. Since she now works part time close to his house, he is asking "for the children's benefit" that she assume an equal part of the driving even though it in no way conveys benefit to the children, she did not move them away from him, and she has no control over which days she works. Currently she has a total of two full and four half days per month without kids and he is asking the judge to require her to spend nearly 6 hours on the road on half of those days.

- He is asking the judge to assign all legal fees for this petition to her.

I don't expect this will go well for him, as the divorce hearing and subsequent dispute over him keeping the accrued interest on an equally divided investment account all went largely in her favor, including legal fees. I don't see these complaints as reasonable and my expectation is that:

- The judge will take into consideration that he is asking her to pay for a change to an agreement that he formerly signed off on and one she has lived up to in every aspect, and assign him the cost of the hearing and lawyer fees

- Judge will take into consideration that he does not support the kids activities and may require him to do so on his custody weekends

- The above may affect the judge's willingness to assign more summertime days or weeks (she has offered him more summer time days and weeks provided that it does not result in them being pulled away from their activities at home, he has ignored that offer every time it was made)

- The court has no interest in what my step-son calls me, or if she refers to me as "dad" in our home where my sons also reside part time, especially given his double standard on the issue and that there is no evidence of her trying to interfere with their relationship (she has not)

- The judge will note that she does 95% of all the heavy lifting of child rearing, transportation, laundry, cooking, etc and dismiss his request to require her to drive them to his home 3 hours away, where he voluntarily moved.

Not addressed in his complaint but an ongoing issue is that he has told her on several occasions now what activities they are not allowed to participate in, specifically riding around the farm on the back of an ATV or learning to ride a minibike. I don't know if a parent with joint legal custody but who is not the primary custodian can dictate what legal activities the kids may or may not participate in when they are with the primary custodian. We will address this in the hearing as well.

I am obviously biased here but I don't see how these are complaints or requests that a family court judge would be sympathetic to. All of her offers to coordinate, negotiate, extend his time with the kids and access to communication have been met with silence or diversion, they are all focused on the needs of the kids and not her own personal convenience, and it's all documented via email, to the point where I think we could submit a small binder of these exchanges and never have to speak a word in our defense.

Am I being overly optimistic here or are these objectively frivolous complaints?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 7, 24 11:23
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
specifically riding around the farm on the back of an ATV or learning to ride a minibike.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to adopt.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.

Given that we live on a farm with horses, which are probably more dangerous than a 4 wheeler driven by an adult, it's a practical question that needs an answer. I would think the court would reference if an activity is legal, is it being done with reasonable safety precautions, and is it in anyone's best interest to allow the noncustodial parent to dictate these decisions to the custodial parent.

Because if so, it's a never ending conversation and in our case, a situation in which the father constantly pimps the kids for information about their activities.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.

My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.

My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.
Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

Sphere - I may be biased as a step-father whose honey's ex is a dipshit, as well, but this guy sounds like the typical jack-hole that just wants to make other people's lives hell to try to make himself look better. Hell with him.

Hopefully, it all turns out ok for you guys.

I've got a backhoe you can borrow, if it comes to that...
- Jeff
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.

Given that we live on a farm with horses, which are probably more dangerous than a 4 wheeler driven by an adult, it's a practical question that needs an answer. I would think the court would reference if an activity is legal, is it being done with reasonable safety precautions, and is it in anyone's best interest to allow the noncustodial parent to dictate these decisions to the custodial parent.

Because if so, it's a never ending conversation and in our case, a situation in which the father constantly pimps the kids for information about their activities.

I thought, per 4 wheeler manufacturer, they are for single riders only, and no one is suppose to ride bitch seat? If that is the case, Yeah I could see that falling maybe not illegal, but neglect arena.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Your vague recollection is well complemented by your overly ambiguous summarization.

You don't have equal say in raising a kid when one parent does all the work all the time with the exception of two weekends per month. I say that as a dad in exactly both situations; I know my limitations, legally and practically speaking. Major decisions like health care, school etc require parental agreement, and most of this is spelled out in the custody agreement. My oldest was into rock climbing; his instructor just broke his tib-fib when his belayer failed to secure properly. Is it within my rights to forbid him from climbing because of the inherent danger? I'm pretty sure my ex could tell me to pound sand if I said no. So there has to be some semblance of an objective standard to rule by in disputes. Is it legal for children, and are proper safety precautions being taken, would be my first two guideposts. But even then, there will be objections. Organized peewee tackle football at age 8 is a good case in point. Legal, safety precautions taken, still relatively high risk.

I think this is probably where a judge's discretion comes into play and it probably varies greatly from one to another.

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Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.

I think cheerleading is dumb and objectively dangerous. Doesn't mean I should be able to tell my ex that my kids shall not participate if they wanted to.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, the question of if it's legal should matter a good bit in how a judge should rule. Almost goes without saying.

I took the kids down to the farm on my Harley a few times, paved back road, maybe a 2 mile round trip at most. Helmet, two seats, back support, foot rests, low speed. Perfectly legal in our state. Their dad threw a fit when they told him. I said out of respect for him I wouldn't take them on the bike again, and I haven't, but again, it's legal and safe because of the speed, distance, location, safety devices, etc. Inherent danger, yes, practically speaking, it would require a freak accident to bring harm, and freak accidents can happen anywhere.

My wife told me this comes from her objections to him getting a bike when they were married, so this may be grudge parenting at some level. Regardless the question stands, does he have the right to dictate these things and how would the court view his weighing on every activity--skiing, snowboarding, wakeboarding, ATV, horseback riding, hoverboards, battery powered scooters, mountain bikes, there's no end to the inherently risky things these kids will be doing safely, and no end to his proven interest in trying to exert whatever control he can on the situation.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why we are now posting pics of ATV's.

But if you meant to add, that is what you have and it is a 2seater, than clearly its okay to have 2 on a 2 seater. The folks I know who have ATVs all have the 1 seater and ride 2 all the time. Some talk about getting 2 seater atv, some even own a 2 seater ATV. But they refer to them as that not a just an ATV. Hence my question. I mean you could even have a sidebyside again usually refered to in those words.

Guess its different where you are and everyone calls 2 seaters just ATV's

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I agree, the question of if it's legal should matter a good bit in how a judge should rule. Almost goes without saying.

I took the kids down to the farm on my Harley a few times, paved back road, maybe a 2 mile round trip at most. Helmet, two seats, back support, foot rests, low speed. Perfectly legal in our state. Their dad threw a fit when they told him. I said out of respect for him I wouldn't take them on the bike again, and I haven't, but again, it's legal and safe because of the speed, distance, location, safety devices, etc. Inherent danger, yes, practically speaking, it would require a freak accident to bring harm, and freak accidents can happen anywhere.

My wife told me this comes from her objections to him getting a bike when they were married, so this may be grudge parenting at some level. Regardless the question stands, does he have the right to dictate these things and how would the court view his weighing on every activity--skiing, snowboarding, wakeboarding, ATV, horseback riding, hoverboards, battery powered scooters, mountain bikes, there's no end to the inherently risky things these kids will be doing safely, and no end to his proven interest in trying to exert whatever control he can on the situation.

Thankfully I have ZERO experience with divorce court, let alone divorce courts with kids.

Ultimately the question comes down to risk taking. I would expect if its not illegal, or agreed in a court document as prohibited your probably okay. Just like he could have taken him to the Trump rally on Jan 6th. Personally, it just sounds like your stuck with dealing with an arse. I am sure if the kid is doing those things, Dad will find some legal activity he knows mom wont like and have the kid do that.

Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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My daughter's exhusband and the father of her two oldest kids sounds similar. She's been dealing with similar motions for the last two years. She's spent upwards of $100k in legal fees on the divorce and subsequent custody proceedings.

I would recommend letting your lawyer handle it and not trying to apply common sense and logic to the problem. We made that mistake and were sorely disappointed.

Each issue will need to be addressed specifically in a response by your attorney. Hopefully the judge will rule on the motion and response without requiring a hearing.

My daughters ex has financial resources. He works for the US Dept. of State. He uses the court system as, essentially, a legal form of control and harassment. Over the last year, he's filed a new motion every three months or so. Each motion requires a response from my daughter and her attorney - which costs my daughter $1000-2000 per response, and significantly more for the ones for which a hearing was held.

There is essentially no choice but to respond to each motion.

For example, my daughter - who lives in Colorado - petitioned to have the custody issues moved to Colorado from Wyoming, the state which currently has jurisdiction. None of the parties involved have residency or other ties to Wyoming. Her ex claims Wyoming as his state of residence for tax purposes (which DoS enables him to do) and he filed for divorce in Wyoming while they were living in Europe, where they lived for the entirety of the marriage. The divorce was handled in Wyoming. He fought the move to Colorado and forced a hearing, which cost my daughter about $3000. The court ultimately ruled that it did not have the jurisdiction to decide. So, because he fought it, it cost my kid a lot of money and nothing was resolved.

I wish you good luck. I have a dim view of the family court system and the attorney's that practice within it.

How's this for travel expenses? My daughter spent abour $10K in 2023 on travel. Her ex got the kids and lives in Serbia. He picks them up in CO at the tax payers expense. She has to collect them in Serbia at her expense. He had them for Christmas/new years and for the summer, requiring my daughter to fly twice to Europe and bring them home.

*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [just jack] [ In reply to ]
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just jack wrote:
He works for the US Dept. of State. He uses the court system as, essentially, a legal form of control and harassment.


He’s part of the Biden Administration??

Edit: And, sorry to you and sphere, and most importantly the kids, for the total shit situation.


Last edited by: WannaB: Jan 7, 24 16:03
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.

Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

I grew up in a pretty rural state (Montana). Just because something is a way of life doesn’t mean it isn’t also dumb. I knew plenty of kids who rode them and ended up fine. I knew a number who got injured - and one who (my friends older brother who was a skilled rider) that ended up paralyzed.

This past summer I was out on a gravel ride and came across a couple 13 year olds who were out on a joy ride and one took a corner too fast and flipped and was pinned under his rig and had a messed up leg. Thankfully he had a helmet…stupidly he wasn’t wearing a shirt and lost. A lot of skin. Helped flip the ATV over, evaluated the kid who wrecked to see if he was good enough that we could move him and then had to get them back to a forest road with a name and then had to ride closer to town to get into cell range so we could call for help. Shit happens. As a parent I would be hesitant if someone was taking my 4.5 year out on mini bikes and ATV’s not knowing what the logistics are (terrain, safety equipment, who is driving, what type of speeds they are going, etc)

Matt
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [just jack] [ In reply to ]
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Your daughter is welcome to borrow my backhoe, as well...

Fuck those assholes. God, I hate people.
- Jeff
Last edited by: jkstevens: Jan 7, 24 19:29
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.


Your vague recollection is well complemented by your overly ambiguous summarization.

You don't have equal say in raising a kid when one parent does all the work all the time with the exception of two weekends per month. I say that as a dad in exactly both situations; I know my limitations, legally and practically speaking. Major decisions like health care, school etc require parental agreement, and most of this is spelled out in the custody agreement. My oldest was into rock climbing; his instructor just broke his tib-fib when his belayer failed to secure properly. Is it within my rights to forbid him from climbing because of the inherent danger? I'm pretty sure my ex could tell me to pound sand if I said no. So there has to be some semblance of an objective standard to rule by in disputes. Is it legal for children, and are proper safety precautions being taken, would be my first two guideposts. But even then, there will be objections. Organized peewee tackle football at age 8 is a good case in point. Legal, safety precautions taken, still relatively high risk.

I think this is probably where a judge's discretion comes into play and it probably varies greatly from one to another.

Quote:
Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.


I think cheerleading is dumb and objectively dangerous. Doesn't mean I should be able to tell my ex that my kids shall not participate if they wanted to.

Let's put it this way, the chance of the kid getting hurt is smaller than the chance of getting killed in Chicago on any given day.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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As a parent I would be hesitant if someone was taking my 4.5 year out on mini bikes and ATV’s not knowing what the logistics are (terrain, safety equipment, who is driving, what type of speeds they are going, etc)

That's the entirety of the problem. You assume the worst when it's your kid and you have no first hand knowledge of the situation. I get that.

It's also his own damn fault that he doesn't. He doesn't communicate like a normal person and refuses to do so. He assumes and presents the worst case scenarios, implies that she doesn't care about the welfare of the children and tries to dictate what she shall and shall not do with them. Every opportunity to gather ammunition against her, he seizes.

A few weeks ago he picked the kids up at the house at 5pm Friday after school. He arrived and the kids had snacked but not yet eaten dinner since we typically eat at 6, The boy asked if they could stop for dinner on the way to his house 3h away and he looked at her and said, "You haven't even fed them dinner yet?" and scoffed. When they got home on Sunday the ten year old told her mom that she's sorry if she said anything that got her in trouble. When she asked what she was talking about, the girl said that her dad set up his phone on the dashboard, hit video record, and had the kids repeat that they were hungry and that mom didn't feed them dinner. She knew what he was trying to do and was twisted over participating in it.

It was also 5pm on his own night to feed the kids, but somehow in his mind it was an opportunity to screw her over so he took it without concern for the kids. This is the kind of person we're dealing with.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Just remember, if he wasn't a complete, ass. She might have stayed with him, for the kids, and you never would have met her. So there is the positive of him being a complete wack.

Of course maybe this tells us more about you, since your describing your wifes, choice of mates. (sorry just one of the twisted thoughts I always have when I her new partners, complaining about their spouse's ex.).

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.

My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.
Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

Sphere - I may be biased as a step-father whose honey's ex is a dipshit, as well, but this guy sounds like the typical jack-hole that just wants to make other people's lives hell to try to make himself look better. Hell with him.

Hopefully, it all turns out ok for you guys.

I've got a backhoe you can borrow, if it comes to that...
- Jeff

https://www.healthychildren.org/...TV-Safety-Rules.aspx

From 1985–2015, ATV crashes killed more than 3,000 children under the age of 16. Nearly 1 million more were taken to the emergency department due to an ATV crash. In fact, it's estimated that about 4 kids are seen in an emergency department every hour for an ATV-related injury in the United States.

Don't ride with or as a passenger. Most ATVs are designed to carry only one person: the driver. Passengers can make ATVs less stable and difficult to control.



You were saying? I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics is a bunch of city slickers.....
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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A good friend of mine is dealing with a very unreasonable ex spouse which encourages my sympathy with you.

I don't see the ATV/minibike issue as the hill to die on so to speak. ATV are rightly perceived as dangerous and I think the judge will likely rule against your wife on that one.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Not sure why we are now posting pics of ATV's.

But if you meant to add, that is what you have and it is a 2seater, than clearly its okay to have 2 on a 2 seater. The folks I know who have ATVs all have the 1 seater and ride 2 all the time. Some talk about getting 2 seater atv, some even own a 2 seater ATV. But they refer to them as that not a just an ATV. Hence my question. I mean you could even have a sidebyside again usually refered to in those words.

Guess its different where you are and everyone calls 2 seaters just ATV's


The only ATV I own is the Can-Am side by side UTV I posted about previously, which is made for three seatbelted occupants inside a roll cage. The youngest (4.5y) has a razor 4-wheeler that fits him perfectly. It's made for kids his size. I posted the picture to show that not all ATVs are made for high speed, one occupant only, which was a direct response to your question about it their occupancy limitations. The answer is, it depends. The reality of the safety profile of all of these types of vehicles is, it depends. It depends on speed, terrain, age, capability, experience, safety equipment, and a host of others. It's easy to say "motorcycles are dangerous" and complain to the judge, and on the surface it's a reasonable statement. In reality, if you're an experienced rider on an isolated road wearing safety equipment going low speed on a well maintained vehicle for a short period of time in daylight and dry weather, that isn't reflected in the statement. That same person, in our case, puts the kids in the car and drives 90mph routinely, as he always has. Has a history of motor vehicle accidents, road rage, and other asinine behavoir behind the wheel. Those things aren't reflected in the safety data about riding a motorcycle vs driving in a late model Toyota Forerunner.

The devil is always in the details. My overriding concern/question is, how much intrusion into the life of the custodial parent is the noncustodial parent allowed when it comes to these decisions. The last thing we need is another court notice about the kids snowboarding and concerns for their safety. There is literally no end to it if it's on a case by case basis.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 7, 24 18:22
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Due process concerns seem to at times cause much harm. A wealthy litigant seems able to continually introduce things which by merely being introduced seem to have to be addressed. Hopefully somewhere in the legal system somebody is trying to address this problem.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [just jack] [ In reply to ]
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just jack wrote:
My daughter's exhusband and the father of her two oldest kids sounds similar. She's been dealing with similar motions for the last two years. She's spent upwards of $100k in legal fees on the divorce and subsequent custody proceedings.

I would recommend letting your lawyer handle it and not trying to apply common sense and logic to the problem. We made that mistake and were sorely disappointed.

Each issue will need to be addressed specifically in a response by your attorney. Hopefully the judge will rule on the motion and response without requiring a hearing.

My daughters ex has financial resources. He works for the US Dept. of State. He uses the court system as, essentially, a legal form of control and harassment. Over the last year, he's filed a new motion every three months or so. Each motion requires a response from my daughter and her attorney - which costs my daughter $1000-2000 per response, and significantly more for the ones for which a hearing was held.

There is essentially no choice but to respond to each motion.

For example, my daughter - who lives in Colorado - petitioned to have the custody issues moved to Colorado from Wyoming, the state which currently has jurisdiction. None of the parties involved have residency or other ties to Wyoming. Her ex claims Wyoming as his state of residence for tax purposes (which DoS enables him to do) and he filed for divorce in Wyoming while they were living in Europe, where they lived for the entirety of the marriage. The divorce was handled in Wyoming. He fought the move to Colorado and forced a hearing, which cost my daughter about $3000. The court ultimately ruled that it did not have the jurisdiction to decide. So, because he fought it, it cost my kid a lot of money and nothing was resolved.

I wish you good luck. I have a dim view of the family court system and the attorney's that practice within it.

How's this for travel expenses? My daughter spent abour $10K in 2023 on travel. Her ex got the kids and lives in Serbia. He picks them up in CO at the tax payers expense. She has to collect them in Serbia at her expense. He had them for Christmas/new years and for the summer, requiring my daughter to fly twice to Europe and bring them home.


This does not give me hope.

How does a judge send kids away from their mother for a whole summer?

The never-ending motion part gives me nightmares. It cost her over $70k to divorce him even though it was his lying and dozen-plus affairs that prompted it. He agreed to the custody arrangement and now wants it changed at her expense. He has more money than scruples (daddy is rich) and shows no capacity to learn or desist. This could go on for a very long time if things aren't hammered out clearly this go round.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t know how family court issues work. Are the motions or complaints going consistently back to the same family court judge? In other words, is the same judge going to repeatedly see the petulance and dickishness, or does your wife have to convince a new judge each time?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
[My overriding concern/question is, how much intrusion into the life of the custodial parent is the noncustodial parent allowed when it comes to these decisions.

Does he have joint custody? If so, a lot.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Joint legal, she has primary physical.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
Not sure why we are now posting pics of ATV's.

But if you meant to add, that is what you have and it is a 2seater, than clearly its okay to have 2 on a 2 seater. The folks I know who have ATVs all have the 1 seater and ride 2 all the time. Some talk about getting 2 seater atv, some even own a 2 seater ATV. But they refer to them as that not a just an ATV. Hence my question. I mean you could even have a sidebyside again usually refered to in those words.

Guess its different where you are and everyone calls 2 seaters just ATV's


The only ATV I own is the Can-Am side by side UTV I posted about previously, which is made for three seatbelted occupants inside a roll cage. The youngest (4.5y) has a razor 4-wheeler that fits him perfectly. It's made for kids his size. I posted the picture to show that not all ATVs are made for high speed, one occupant only, which was a direct response to your question about it their occupancy limitations. The answer is, it depends. The reality of the safety profile of all of these types of vehicles is, it depends. It depends on speed, terrain, age, capability, experience, safety equipment, and a host of others. It's easy to say "motorcycles are dangerous" and complain to the judge, and on the surface it's a reasonable statement. In reality, if you're an experienced rider on an isolated road wearing safety equipment going low speed on a well maintained vehicle for a short period of time in daylight and dry weather, that isn't reflected in the statement. That same person, in our case, puts the kids in the car and drives 90mph routinely, as he always has. Has a history of motor vehicle accidents, road rage, and other asinine behavoir behind the wheel. Those things aren't reflected in the safety data about riding a motorcycle vs driving in a late model Toyota Forerunner.

The devil is always in the details. My overriding concern/question is, how much intrusion into the life of the custodial parent is the noncustodial parent allowed when it comes to these decisions. The last thing we need is another court notice about the kids snowboarding and concerns for their safety. There is literally no end to it if it's on a case by case basis.

Yeah, and if you and your wife go in with He rides on the back of an ATV and on a mini bike so what. It wont go as well, as if you say, yes we own a side by side, with roll bars and yes he rides his small bike around.

perception is far more important than reality.

He died cause he jumped out of a plane.

He died cause his parachute did not deploy.

both true, but perception of each is very different.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, there are morons everywhere. Forgive me for thinking that sphere is not one of those who lets their kids ride without supervision.

There is something to be said about allowing kids their ability to go screw around. That's idiotic ob a motorized anything. I'm giving sphere the benefit of the doubt that he and his wife are driving mostly, and if they're allowing the kids to drive, it's in a learning environment.

If I'm wrong, I have no problem retracting all that I've said.

However, I am in complete agreement that kids should not be allowed to operate anything in their lonesome - that's just bad (and lazy) parenting. But I don't believe that's what is going on here.
- Jeff
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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In a hearing of the magnitude, to relitigate the custody agreement, doesn’t the judge/court speak with the children? Maybe that isn’t always the case, but does your wife have the option to request?

I would think and hope this offers an opportunity to evaluate their perceptions of the experience thus far, to help determine what best for their well being?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.


My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.

Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

Sphere - I may be biased as a step-father whose honey's ex is a dipshit, as well, but this guy sounds like the typical jack-hole that just wants to make other people's lives hell to try to make himself look better. Hell with him.

Hopefully, it all turns out ok for you guys.

I've got a backhoe you can borrow, if it comes to that...
- Jeff


https://www.healthychildren.org/...TV-Safety-Rules.aspx

From 1985–2015, ATV crashes killed more than 3,000 children under the age of 16. Nearly 1 million more were taken to the emergency department due to an ATV crash. In fact, it's estimated that about 4 kids are seen in an emergency department every hour for an ATV-related injury in the United States.

Don't ride with or as a passenger. Most ATVs are designed to carry only one person: the driver. Passengers can make ATVs less stable and difficult to control.



You were saying? I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics is a bunch of city slickers.....

"You're an idiot."
- windy, to anyone else who disagrees with him...

Stats are great, I could easily find ones to back up damn near anything I wish to spew forth, much like you always do.

So in 30 years, 3000 kids were killed on atvs?

How many were being operated by the kids with no supervision? Did they have helmets on or not?

How many were being operated by their parents? Was the adult operator impaired at all? Was speed a factor?

I hate to do this type of math, but that's only 10 [sorry, was late and bad math: should be 100 per year; my point is still valid, however, especially when looked at per the entire population] kids a year. More kids die of neglect from their parents each year. Sure as fuck doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it unsafe: it's only unsafe when their parents allow it to be unsafe.

More shit you just don't know or understand windy, yet continually verbalize diarrhea about.
- Jeff
Last edited by: jkstevens: Jan 7, 24 19:36
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:

Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.

No, this is incorrect. Dealing with an asshole sucks. Married people are assholes sometimes. Divorced people are assholes sometimes. The problem isn’t marriage or divorce. The problem is someone acting like an asshole.

Good people are assholes sometimes. They don’t meet the moment. It’s really hard to step up and be a good person sometimes.

I’m getting divorced right now. I, individually, and my ex, individually, are being assholes intermittently.

We’re not being assholes all the time.

You know how when you get married and you say your vows in front of everyone, and everyone is supposed witness your vows and help motivate you? You promise to everyone to try to love the person well.

I would like divorcing to be the same. I need to remember all those people who want us to succeed. Our friends and family want us to do a good job divorcing each other. They care about our kids. They care about us. I think my ex and I have many moments where we want to do it right, too. And then something happens— He is a legitimate idiot at times (like myself, I suppose). It is hard to not think his idiocy is my problem.

I believe we can have a successful divorce, and I appreciate the encouragement we have received from friends and family. That sounds weird! But it’s true.
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.


My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.

Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

Sphere - I may be biased as a step-father whose honey's ex is a dipshit, as well, but this guy sounds like the typical jack-hole that just wants to make other people's lives hell to try to make himself look better. Hell with him.

Hopefully, it all turns out ok for you guys.

I've got a backhoe you can borrow, if it comes to that...
- Jeff


https://www.healthychildren.org/...TV-Safety-Rules.aspx

From 1985–2015, ATV crashes killed more than 3,000 children under the age of 16. Nearly 1 million more were taken to the emergency department due to an ATV crash. In fact, it's estimated that about 4 kids are seen in an emergency department every hour for an ATV-related injury in the United States.

Don't ride with or as a passenger. Most ATVs are designed to carry only one person: the driver. Passengers can make ATVs less stable and difficult to control.



You were saying? I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics is a bunch of city slickers.....

"You're an idiot."
- windy, to anyone else who disagrees with him...

Stats are great, I could easily find ones to back up damn near anything I wish to spew forth, much like you always do.

So in 30 years, 3000 kids were killed on atvs?

How many were being operated by the kids with no supervision? Did they have helmets on or not?

How many were being operated by their parents? Was the adult operator impaired at all? Was speed a factor?

I hate to do this type of math, but that's only 10 [sorry, was late and bad math: should be 100 per year; my point is still valid, however, especially when looked at per the entire population] kids a year. More kids die of neglect from their parents each year. Sure as fuck doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it unsafe: it's only unsafe when their parents allow it to be unsafe.

More shit you just don't know or understand windy, yet continually verbalize diarrhea about.
- Jeff

You focused in deaths as opposed to injuries.

You think car seats and seat belts for kids is dumb big city nonsense too?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
it's only unsafe when their parents allow it to be unsafe.

This, mostly. Some things are inherently unsafe, like riding bikes, hoverboards, skateboards, roller skates, etc. Some things have a higher capacity for catastrophic injury (ATVs, motorcycles, snowboarding) and some every day activities that are generally safe can be catastrophic if not done safely, like diving in a pool. The difference between safe and unsafe almost always comes down to not what, but how. Most people here understandably seem to be focused on the what, and it's reasonable to think a judge would focus on that as well. A jilted ex is likely to hammer that point as well, so that's a hill to climb if you're invested in those activities with kids. I am far less invested in the what than I am his ability to micromanage our everyday activities and having to ask permission for any number of hobbies or outings we may want to pursue.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Barks&Purrs wrote:
DavHamm wrote:

Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.

No, this is incorrect. Dealing with an asshole sucks. Married people are assholes sometimes. Divorced people are assholes sometimes. The problem isn’t marriage or divorce. The problem is someone acting like an asshole.

Good people are assholes sometimes. They don’t meet the moment. It’s really hard to step up and be a good person sometimes.

I’m getting divorced right now. I, individually, and my ex, individually, are being assholes intermittently.

We’re not being assholes all the time.

You know how when you get married and you say your vows in front of everyone, and everyone is supposed witness your vows and help motivate you? You promise to everyone to try to love the person well.

I would like divorcing to be the same. I need to remember all those people who want us to succeed. Our friends and family want us to do a good job divorcing each other. They care about our kids. They care about us. I think my ex and I have many moments where we want to do it right, too. And then something happens— He is a legitimate idiot at times (like myself, I suppose). It is hard to not think his idiocy is my problem.

I believe we can have a successful divorce, and I appreciate the encouragement we have received from friends and family. That sounds weird! But it’s true.
I think this is the vest thing you've ever posted; very well said.

I'm sorry that you're having to go through this, and I truly wish you the best. As a very good friend of mine gave for advice, years after he'd been through it: do not think of this as being aggrieved - think of this as an *opportunity*, one which you can do and achieve things which you'd inly dreamt about previously.

Good luck to you!
- Jeff
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
jkstevens wrote:
windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
Maybe so. The question is, does the noncustodial parent have the right to dictate that to the custodial parent? I don't know the answer and it's been tough to find.activities.


My vague recollection is that joint custody without regard to custody bestows equal say in raising the kid.

Setting that aside ATVs and minibikes for kids is dumb.

Maybe for city-dwellers, but for farm kids, it's a way of life. Here's yet another instance of city-folk trying to dictate what others do, simply because they do not understand it. Stay in your lane, windy.

Sphere - I may be biased as a step-father whose honey's ex is a dipshit, as well, but this guy sounds like the typical jack-hole that just wants to make other people's lives hell to try to make himself look better. Hell with him.

Hopefully, it all turns out ok for you guys.

I've got a backhoe you can borrow, if it comes to that...
- Jeff


https://www.healthychildren.org/...TV-Safety-Rules.aspx

From 1985–2015, ATV crashes killed more than 3,000 children under the age of 16. Nearly 1 million more were taken to the emergency department due to an ATV crash. In fact, it's estimated that about 4 kids are seen in an emergency department every hour for an ATV-related injury in the United States.

Don't ride with or as a passenger. Most ATVs are designed to carry only one person: the driver. Passengers can make ATVs less stable and difficult to control.



You were saying? I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics is a bunch of city slickers.....

"You're an idiot."
- windy, to anyone else who disagrees with him...

Stats are great, I could easily find ones to back up damn near anything I wish to spew forth, much like you always do.

So in 30 years, 3000 kids were killed on atvs?

How many were being operated by the kids with no supervision? Did they have helmets on or not?

How many were being operated by their parents? Was the adult operator impaired at all? Was speed a factor?

I hate to do this type of math, but that's only 10 [sorry, was late and bad math: should be 100 per year; my point is still valid, however, especially when looked at per the entire population] kids a year. More kids die of neglect from their parents each year. Sure as fuck doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it unsafe: it's only unsafe when their parents allow it to be unsafe.

More shit you just don't know or understand windy, yet continually verbalize diarrhea about.
- Jeff

You focused in deaths as opposed to injuries.

You think car seats and seat belts for kids is dumb big city nonsense too?
The people allowing their kids to be injured and killed on atvs due to piss-poor supervision and parenting, are the same ones that don't bother with car seats or seat belts.
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
it's only unsafe when their parents allow it to be unsafe.

This, mostly. Some things are inherently unsafe, like riding bikes, hoverboards, skateboards, roller skates, etc. Some things have a higher capacity for catastrophic injury (ATVs, motorcycles, snowboarding) and some every day activities that are generally safe can be catastrophic if not done safely, like diving in a pool. The difference between safe and unsafe almost always comes down to not what, but how. Most people here understandably seem to be focused on the what, and it's reasonable to think a judge would focus on that as well. A jilted ex is likely to hammer that point as well, so that's a hill to climb if you're invested in those activities with kids. I am far less invested in the what than I am his ability to micromanage our everyday activities and having to ask permission for any number of hobbies or outings we may want to pursue.
I'm with you spere.

Maybe, if he brings up trying to regulate your activities with the kids, you guys can push back with regulating his speed and safety on the roads, while bringing up his driving record? Tit for tat.
- Jeff
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Barks&Purrs wrote:
DavHamm wrote:


Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.


No, this is incorrect. Dealing with an asshole sucks. Married people are assholes sometimes. Divorced people are assholes sometimes. The problem isn’t marriage or divorce. The problem is someone acting like an asshole.

Good people are assholes sometimes. They don’t meet the moment. It’s really hard to step up and be a good person sometimes.

I’m getting divorced right now. I, individually, and my ex, individually, are being assholes intermittently.

We’re not being assholes all the time.

You know how when you get married and you say your vows in front of everyone, and everyone is supposed witness your vows and help motivate you? You promise to everyone to try to love the person well.

I would like divorcing to be the same. I need to remember all those people who want us to succeed. Our friends and family want us to do a good job divorcing each other. They care about our kids. They care about us. I think my ex and I have many moments where we want to do it right, too. And then something happens— He is a legitimate idiot at times (like myself, I suppose). It is hard to not think his idiocy is my problem.

I believe we can have a successful divorce, and I appreciate the encouragement we have received from friends and family. That sounds weird! But it’s true.

I'm sorry to hear that. If I remember correctly it sounded like you two weren't exactly seeing the world through the same lenses so it's not entirely surprising but your post rings true. And it can be reasonably successful. My divorce went through with a mediator, no lawyers, no major issues that pushed us to court, and we get along fine. I think it probably bothers my kids how well we get along and makes them wonder why we ever split in the first place, or maybe that's projection. Either way, it's as amicable as I had hoped for despite the odd disagreements on parenting philosophy. We are both reasonable people who put the kids first and don't rock the boat needlessly. In all honesty I think it's hard for my wife to see how well we get along in divorce given what she has to deal with with her ex. I treat my ex with genuine respect and appreciation for what she does for our kids and so I always act accordingly, whereas my wife gets nothing but brow beatings and disrespect in her interactions with him. It takes a toll. Point is, it does take two mature and invested partners to divorce amicably and find peace in the new arrangement. I don't think you'll have any problem on your end, so I hope he can find the resolve to hold that line as well.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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All that said...

Quote:
Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.

This is also true. It does suck. Hard. Even when you get along, divorce should take an emotional toll, especially with kids involved, if you're a normal human being who values bonds and vows and family and continuity and history and memories and all the things you may take for granted before it changes forever. I wish I never experienced divorce, even though I'm in a happy marriage. It has taken a toll and it's something I don't know if I'll ever fully heal from. It feels like the death of a part of you, and regardless of the percentage of blame it feels like you bear responsibility for killing it.

It gets easier but it's never easy. At least for me.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
I don’t know how family court issues work. Are the motions or complaints going consistently back to the same family court judge? In other words, is the same judge going to repeatedly see the petulance and dickishness, or does your wife have to convince a new judge each time?

I believe, and hope, it will be the same judge. She was not impressed with his arguments either time around, I think it's safe to say. Maybe I'm not judge material, but if a guy with three kids cheats on and abuses his wife for years, then petitions the court to require her to work full time while primarily raising the kids, so that her income absolves him of child support liability (while making upward of $200k himself), I don't think I could be unbiased in how I treated his future petitions.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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We’re mediating, but I just hired a lawyer and financial person because the stress from the divorce is exceeding my limits. When I can’t figure things out on my own, I look for help.

Lawyers are supposed to absorb a certain amount of stress for their client. They’re the legal expert. So I got my own. I can’t wait for her to tell me what she recommends. Even if it’s what I don’t want to hear— I just want to hear something that makes sense.

The money you pay to deal with these legal matters is money well spent, in my view. You don’t want to pay for car repairs or medical bills or lawyers. But sometimes you need to. You need a functioning car. You need a healthy body. You need legal advice.

I might have ideas about your situation, but I don’t know family law. I don’t know how to deal with a manipulating ex.

Generally speaking, I would say you should evaluate each of the ex’s concerns individually. What would be fair if the roles were reversed?

What steps might mitigate the risk of harm? How could the activities be performed differently? Could the kids get special training from someone? Maybe ATV or horseback riding lessons? Protective wear? There are probably a lot of ways to alleviate concern. As a lawyer, I’m frequently obligated to “meet and confer” with opposing counsel to avoid the necessity of filing a motion. Meeting and conferring is problem solving. It’s suggesting solutions, generating ideas. I think this is a good place for you to spend some time. Problem solving is a healthy activity, so even if it doesn’t solve the problem and avoid a hearing with the judge, it is good brain exercise. Plus judges like it.

I’m certain there is a process to identify vexatious or harassing motions. But I imagine a judge would be very reluctant to refuse to consider a dad’s motions about potential harm to the kids. If the ex lived a crazy lifestyle, you would find yourself filing a zillion motions to protect the kids. So just the number of motions filed doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Unless the ex’s motions are completely baseless and basically insane, I think a judge would want to hear them.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Ignoring your views on the ex's personality, to try and remain unbiased, my views are as follows:

*With respect to sport, I don't think it's unreasonable for parent 2, having shared custody, to be able to do what they want with their child when they have custody. Particularly if they only have the child for "5%" of the time. It should not be dictated by choices made by the primary caregiver (parent 1). I take onboard that the child may really want to participate in that activity every week, but I don't see that as being fair on parent 2 if several hours of their limited time requires them to stand on the sidelines and watch the child do something without them. The onus should be on parent 1 to explain to the child that yes they can do activity x, but they can only do it when at home. I don't think it's the judge's role (or frankly their right) to tell parent 2 that playing sport while they watch is better for the relationship than say sitting in a coffee shop talking over food for two hours.

*I don't know enough about the rights of each when it comes to selecting holiday dates. I can understand the frustration she would have not having the dates settled a reasonable time out from the holidays.

*I could understand why a biological parent would not like having another person being called dad (or mum) by another. It wasn't clear whether they started calling his partner mama before or after they learned of the dada referencing. In other words was it pure hypocrisy (they were doing it first) or retribution (in response)? Rhetorical question really, I'm not sure whether there are any rules against what adults can request they be called and therefore whether it has any validity.

*Agree that she should have no obligation to drive them there, if that's what the judge previously stated. Though I almost see this as an extension of the sport issue, just in her favour this time.

*I agree with his concerns regarding children and riding on ATVs. I've seen countless stories on fatalities or serious injuries involving children over here, both with and without adult supervision, some with the adult driving. Doctors are forever appearing on tv news pleading with people not to allow this to occur. With all due respect, I think you are allowing your bias to override common sense here. We never really have full control of our environment and that's a small, unprotected body relatively exposed to a lot of weight and (potentially) speed. If he were a qualified skydiving instructor, would you be ok with them taking the child tandem jumping every visitation? Just my opinion, but one that seems to be shared by leading doctors and police locally.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
*With respect to sport, I don't think it's unreasonable for parent 2, having shared custody, to be able to do what they want with their child when they have custody. Particularly if they only have the child for "5%" of the time. It should not be dictated by choices made by the primary caregiver (parent 1). I take onboard that the child may really want to participate in that activity every week, but I don't see that as being fair on parent 2 if several hours of their limited time requires them to stand on the sidelines and watch the child do something without them. The onus should be on parent 1 to explain to the child that yes they can do activity x, but they can only do it when at home. I don't think it's the judge's role (or frankly their right) to tell parent 2 that playing sport while they watch is better for the relationship than say sitting in a coffee shop talking over food for two hours.

Seems to me that what the parent prefers is not the primary concern. The primary concern is what's good for the kid, and normal participation in sports shouldn't be curtailed because one of the parents refuses to accommodate that.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Seems to me that what the parent prefers is not the primary concern. The primary concern is what's good for the kid, and normal participation in sports shouldn't be curtailed because one of the parents refuses to accommodate that.


My wife's friend recently went before this same judge, who ruled in similar fashion. The father lives in Charlottesville, some 45 minutes from the mother, and refused to take their son to his sporting events on his weekends. The judge said (paraphrasing) that it's not fair to the child to disrupt his participation in sports for the convenience of the father and that the mother and father were both obligated to that responsibility, not just mom on her weekends with the kid.

I don't know how that theory applies when the father moves 3h from the kids' primary residence, as in our case.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 7, 24 21:29
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
*With respect to sport, I don't think it's unreasonable for parent 2, having shared custody, to be able to do what they want with their child when they have custody. Particularly if they only have the child for "5%" of the time. It should not be dictated by choices made by the primary caregiver (parent 1). I take onboard that the child may really want to participate in that activity every week, but I don't see that as being fair on parent 2 if several hours of their limited time requires them to stand on the sidelines and watch the child do something without them. The onus should be on parent 1 to explain to the child that yes they can do activity x, but they can only do it when at home. I don't think it's the judge's role (or frankly their right) to tell parent 2 that playing sport while they watch is better for the relationship than say sitting in a coffee shop talking over food for two hours.

I have the benefit of being on both ends of this arrangement which helps me keep my biases mostly in check. In other words, I don't apply a standard to what we expect of him any differently than I hold myself to as the father of kids who live primarily with their mother. I don't see it as "my" time with my kids, but their time that I bear primary responsibility for them, to run them to appointments, take them to games, sleepovers, birthday parties, etc. I make it about their time and their interests as much as possible. When they have events going on at home, I either stay in an area hotel to support those activities, or I allow them to stay with their mother that weekend if I can't break away from obligations at home. Their needs almost always come first, because it's their life and their developmental interests that matter most. My wife's ex sees it completely differently, that it's "his" time and that they need to be where he says they go and do what he plans, not them. It's a fundamentally opposite way of viewing your obligations as a parent who imposed divorce on the children we chose to have. So it is hard for me to see it from the other perspective, that the dad's time is just fun time with no actual work or mundane aspects of parenting involved.

But who knows. I'm sure there are plenty of family court judges who see it your way.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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What is â€normal’? 1x, 2x, 3x per week? Are judges adequately qualified to determine the psychological benefits of playing more sport vs potentially bonding with a parent they don’t see that much; the child is already participating? I’d see it differently if the costody was the other way around and the sport takes a much lower percentage of time.

When a child wants to stay home so they can play sport rather than spend time with a parent that shows the relationship is broken. I’m not defending parent 2 here, but I’m not sure that allowing the relationship to further deteriorate is the best long term solution for the child. Certainly I’m not an expert so don’t pretend my views are correct.

Granted every case is different, but it seems like a lot of dads (parent 2’s) feel particularly aggrieved.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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When a child wants to stay home so they can play sport rather than spend time with a parent that shows the relationship is broken.


That's making a big and I think inaccurate assumption. At what age should a kid want to sit around with a parent playing Uno, rather than competing in a tournament with their friends playing a sport they love? If it were me, and my father forced me to choose, I'd feel resentful that he made me miss those events rather than showing up with me to cheer me on and share those moments together.

In my view, achieving the closest thing to normalcy is the goal and the obligation of the parent. If mom and dad were not divorced, dad wouldn't take the kid away from his soccer games every other weekend, so why should it be different in divorce if it's possible to maintain that continuity?

But again, that's my personal perspective.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 7, 24 22:00
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose if mum and dad were not divorced, perhaps the sport chosen was a mutual decision including all three. Sorry if I missed something, but I’ve assumed the sport was something mum and son chose and bio-dad was advised of after.

All hypothetical, but what if P2 had another idea that son might otherwise have learned to love but never found that out because a judge told P2 that sport needs to be retained on his watch. Not playing that sport doesn’t necessarily mean son couldn’t have a great time doing something else.

Of course you probably know very well that is unlikely, regardless of the rose tint in the glasses.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve assumed the sport was something mum and son chose and bio-dad was advised of after.


The sports have been chosen by the kids, and mom being the custodial parent who played organized sports herself signed the kids up. Bio dad does not want them playing sports if they fall on weekends--which of course, they all do. So the option was to keep them out of all sports altogether, or enroll them and ask him to support their choice, as she does on their weekends at home.

Also worth noting, the only home he owns is in the same town where the children live. He rents it out as an AirBnB. The home he occupies out of state is a rental.

Quote:
All hypothetical, but what if P2 had another idea that son might otherwise have learned to love but never found that out because a judge told P2 that sport needs to be retained on his watch. Not playing that sport doesn’t necessarily mean son couldn’t have a great time doing something else.

Of course you probably know very well that is unlikely, regardless of the rose tint in the glasses.


I don't know what you mean with the rose colored glasses comment.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 8, 24 1:17
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what you mean with the rose colored glasses comment.


That's my bad. Complete misunderstanding (and thus misuse) of the expression. What I was intending to say was that you would clearly be a better judge of the situation, even allowing for a degree of bias.
Last edited by: mv2005: Jan 8, 24 3:14
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Ah. Gotcha.

We don't push the kids into any sports, but we do let them know what is available based on the season. Kids gravitate to screens and the couch so playing sports even half the time is better than none, so we would never keep them out of it because their father will require them to miss every other weekend. But at some point it was inevitable that they would want to make all of their games and we've had multiple issues with this already, where the kids wanted to stay home to attend the games rather than drive three hours north to their father's house, and have been disappointed when his answer is no. As far as whose job it is to break the disappointment, my personal opinion is that if me and mom can't take them on our weekend with them, for whatever reason, we'll tell them it's on us, and if he can't or won't on his custody weekend, it's on him to communicate that with the kids and not make mom the bearer of all bad news and cover for his unwillingness to support them in their activities. His decision, he has to own it just like we would and sometimes do.

You had mentioned the situation being reversed and their participation in sports potentially obviating their ability to do activities he may want to plan for them. I think home field advantage has to be considered here. They spend 90% of their time in their home town, where practices fall during the week, where their friends and classmates live etc, so it's not reasonable for the noncustodial parent to enroll them in longer term commitments that would require frequent trips back and forth to his home. If they're going to play in a sports league, it only makes sense that it be in the area where they live. Same goes for my sons who live with their mom; we chose divorce, I moved to a different town from where they live, and I encourage them to play sports, clubs, activities, anything that will support their development in a healthy way, and it's my job to support those activities where they live. It's the only sensible way to manage these situations when the parents live in two separate locations; custodial parent should be deferred to here since they do almost all of the heavy lifting, in my opinion.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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From what I recall reading over the years, for the most part I accept all that you’re saying (not that it matters if I do or not).

Right or wrong I’m trying to understand their mindset beyond pure spite. If they’ve always been non-sporting then I think it’s less spite and more that they’d rather be doing something else. I could see how it could be perceived as an extension of â€her time’’. Sometimes kids grow to love additional things upon exposure. Preferring to stay home to play sport could feel like a rejection of the person - which would hurt, depending on the person. I’m sure there’s compromises that could be found but understand they probably won’t ever get discussed.

I’m glad I’m not in that situation. My ex and I never moved on, and live 200m apart. Weve been walking dogs most mornings, spending Xmas with extended family and otherwise preoccupied with the issues with our oldest. As lonely as it feels at times, we are fortunate in many respects.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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If he feels rejection, it’s probably because of his historic absence, his non involvement with them when they did live together, his decision to move three hours away, his failure to call them for weeks at a time, and his persistent M.O. of putting his agenda above theirs when it’s his custody weekend.

In contrast, mom and I are always there, supporting their activities, spending quality time, and building a happy home. My advice to him, if he would listen, would be to stop making his weekends about his agenda and actually plug into the kids’ lives, be willing to sacrifice for them without being forced to, and show genuine respect for the woman who loves and cares for them day in and day out. He chooses the opposite, and they feel it. So while my wife isn’t actively interfering or dissuading them from a relationship with him, she’s not actively working to foster one because she knows first hand what kind of person he is, and what he is and is not capable of.

If you’ve never dealt with a malignant narcissist personality type it’s hard to convey just how toxic they are, and why a mother who has children with them wants as little interaction with them as humanly possible. Counseling is pointless, negotiation is one sided, and you are always the target of their ire when they feel at a disadvantage or wronged, which is almost a constant.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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No experience with family court, or anything so bear with me. But where is the line, and the details, that can make a judge rule on something vs. a ruling being a judicial overreach?

Reading the posts about sports involvement, ATV's [ . . or substitute any other activity. . .] there are important nuances on these things that a judge just isn't privy to. Or are details intentionally made part of the case? But still.

Example - Youth sports can be good - for physical fitness, self-confidence, etc. But a particular sport/team/coach dynamic can be hugely negative that a kids' self-confidence is destroyed. Then sport is not good. Can a judge really rule that parent2 must keep the kid in sports? Or custodial parents have to curtail an activity? How does a judge have enough info (or time) to confidently rule that in your and your kid's particular circumstances, some activity is ok, or not ok?

Also, sometimes as a parent, it's within the parent's purview to decide what's good for the kid, no? This doesn't mean the kid's best interests aren't key. The ex might feel that instead of sports, a weekend language immersion in learning Latin, or Latvian, or native-country language or some other joint cultural outing is a better use of how he as a parent would like the kid (and him) to spend their time. Brain instead of brawn activity so to speak. (Ok, maybe this isn't his personality, as you've described it). Or maybe it's more that the ex doesn't want to take the kid to sports (that you've signed them up for) because it's a reminder that he's not in control over what he feels is best for the kid, on his time.

But can a judge really make the ruling that kid should do language/cultural immersion instead of sports on alternate weekends? That seems odd and a judicial overreach.

I guess, I don't think it should be the call of a judge. Too many nuances that can be important. Ideally it's all sets of parents [plus the kid] that come together and make these decisions. Yeah, but that's not the relationship you guys have here w/the ex. hence the situation. I don't envy you.

Hoping things turn out well, or as best as it can be.
Last edited by: 40-Tude: Jan 8, 24 6:04
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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A few things:

- was the current custody order signed before or after he moved 3 hours away?

- why did he move away?

These questions are important because a quick google search shows that you can’t change a custody order in VA unless there is a material change in circumstance.

If the move was after the order was set, it would be on the Ex to show that the move was in the best interest of the kids. Moving for a higher paying job would work, moving to be with the new woman? Not so much. It would be on him to show the benefit, on your wife to rebut. The reason will also dictate how understanding the judge will be.

If the current order was set after the move, I would ask for the petition be dismissed as there isn’t a change in circumstances.

Some more:

- with Joint Legal, the court assumes that both parents are perfectly capable. Basically, both parties need to get over themselves about what goes on at the other house as long as there is no abuse and neglect. Riding ATV’s and mini bikes isn’t this. My guess is the judge would ask a few questions such as are you supervising them and are they wearing helmets and then say OK, no problem!

- when a parent has every other weekend, it is incumbent on the custodial parent NOT to intrude on the other parent’s time because the non custodial parent has such little time. If both parents live close to each other, sports and stuff should be pretty easy to deal with. Three hours away? Signing up the kids for sports and activities in the custodial parent’s town and expecting the non custodial parent to take kids to games three hours away is just not reasonable and realistic, no matter the reason for the move and is another reason why divorce sux. A judge could view it as a punishment move by your wife for him moving away.

A 4D chess move would be for your wife to offer 50/50 shared if he lived within a 20 minute radius. His response would speak volumes of how sincere he really is.
Last edited by: BBB1975: Jan 8, 24 6:41
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Chemist wrote:
I grew up in a pretty rural state (Montana). Just because something is a way of life doesn’t mean it isn’t also dumb. I knew plenty of kids who rode them and ended up fine. I knew a number who got injured - and one who (my friends older brother who was a skilled rider) that ended up paralyzed.

This past summer I was out on a gravel ride and came across a couple 13 year olds who were out on a joy ride and one took a corner too fast and flipped and was pinned under his rig and had a messed up leg. Thankfully he had a helmet…stupidly he wasn’t wearing a shirt and lost. A lot of skin. Helped flip the ATV over, evaluated the kid who wrecked to see if he was good enough that we could move him and then had to get them back to a forest road with a name and then had to ride closer to town to get into cell range so we could call for help. Shit happens. As a parent I would be hesitant if someone was taking my 4.5 year out on mini bikes and ATV’s not knowing what the logistics are (terrain, safety equipment, who is driving, what type of speeds they are going, etc)

I'm not going to take sides in this discussion, but doing stupid things are not limited to the fly over states when it comes to kids. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, Indiana, and we commonly rode snowmobiles, go-karts, mini-bikes, and ATVs. We shot guns. We rode in the back of pickups. We I was driving the farm truck (limited) at 12 and tractors long before that. Was it safe? Probably not, but it was life on the farm in the Midwest. Last I was there not much has changed. A few laws, some safety requirements, etc, but you still have kids doing adult things under limited adult supervision.

Now I live on Long Island in the burbs. We have kids that are riding bikes and skateboards in traffic not wearing helmets. We have those damn motorized scooters. We have kids that are in the park way past dark (closing time). We have abandoned houses, we have construction sites, and we have big shopping centers We have the homeless, drug dealers, perverts of all types, and occasionally gun violence. The kids are exposed to all of that.

My point is in the current world it is dangerous for unsupervised kids pretty much everywhere. If a parent is not involved and doesn't keep track of the kids, the middle of nowhere and the big city burbs are about equally dangerous.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry youve got to go through this (again). I havent had any experience in divorse or family court and hopefully will never have to. But I've heard and read plenty of stories and I really don't understand it. So much of it doesnt make sense. I hope it works out as you seem to be better suited to provide for the kids in almost every aspect.

That being said, I didn't have anything to add until the vanity plate thread just came up. I never thought it was good or bad but cant argue with the stats if they say the risk is that high, but seeing your license plate on your bike I could see why he may have been pissed or why the courts might rule against the motorcycles and ATVs. A licence plate of "Trauma" doesn't convey a notion of safety.

Just a small observation. Not that you may be able to do anything about that now. Again, I hope it works out for you as best and quickly as possible.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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jkstevens wrote:
Barks&Purrs wrote:
DavHamm wrote:


Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.


No, this is incorrect. Dealing with an asshole sucks. Married people are assholes sometimes. Divorced people are assholes sometimes. The problem isn’t marriage or divorce. The problem is someone acting like an asshole.

Good people are assholes sometimes. They don’t meet the moment. It’s really hard to step up and be a good person sometimes.

I’m getting divorced right now. I, individually, and my ex, individually, are being assholes intermittently.

We’re not being assholes all the time.

You know how when you get married and you say your vows in front of everyone, and everyone is supposed witness your vows and help motivate you? You promise to everyone to try to love the person well.

I would like divorcing to be the same. I need to remember all those people who want us to succeed. Our friends and family want us to do a good job divorcing each other. They care about our kids. They care about us. I think my ex and I have many moments where we want to do it right, too. And then something happens— He is a legitimate idiot at times (like myself, I suppose). It is hard to not think his idiocy is my problem.

I believe we can have a successful divorce, and I appreciate the encouragement we have received from friends and family. That sounds weird! But it’s true.

I think this is the vest thing you've ever posted; very well said.

I'm sorry that you're having to go through this, and I truly wish you the best. As a very good friend of mine gave for advice, years after he'd been through it: do not think of this as being aggrieved - think of this as an *opportunity*, one which you can do and achieve things which you'd inly dreamt about previously.

Good luck to you!
- Jeff

So divorce doesn't suck but were sorry you have to go through this?

I really don't get the English language.

sorry I think divorce sucks, I don't know anyone who given the opportunity to do things differently would not do what they can to avoid the divorce, In some cases thats not get married in the first place.

I agree Assholes suck, but I know people who were not assholes, just couldn't get along and after 10 or 15 yrs got divorced with kids in their teens. Both parents were rational about it and tried their best to make it work. Both would agree, it sucked, it sucked worse cause there were kids, and with joint custody it sucked even more. At the same time, it didn't suck bad enough to give up custody, and staying together, would have sucked even more. But neither of them were assholes, just didn't get along and wanted different things, and had a good enough relationship to agree to split up.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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mv2005 wrote:
What is â€normal’? 1x, 2x, 3x per week? Are judges adequately qualified to determine the psychological benefits of playing more sport vs potentially bonding with a parent they don’t see that much; the child is already participating? I’d see it differently if the costody was the other way around and the sport takes a much lower percentage of time.

When a child wants to stay home so they can play sport rather than spend time with a parent that shows the relationship is broken. I’m not defending parent 2 here, but I’m not sure that allowing the relationship to further deteriorate is the best long term solution for the child. Certainly I’m not an expert so don’t pretend my views are correct.

Granted every case is different, but it seems like a lot of dads (parent 2’s) feel particularly aggrieved.

We're not, so far as I can tell, talking about extremes here. This isn't a kid who needs to travel for sports everyday. It's a kid who is playing normal kids sports with games/matches on the weekends, and an absent father who is refusing to accommodate those weekend games.

The whole point is that the parents shouldn't be forcing the kid to decide between normal healthy kid activities and seeing their parent. The parent should be flexible to accommodate those activities within reason. If the relationship is broken to the point where the kid is forced to make that choice, and indicates that they would prefer to do the sports, then forcing them to skip the sports certainly isn't going to strengthen the relationship. It'll just make them resent the parent who's making them miss their sports and time with their friends.

You can chalk it up to aggrieved parents if you like, but I'm not married and don't have kids, so I'm looking at this purely from the outside with the perspective of doing the best thing for the child.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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I haven’t seen that thread in a while, so I’m not sure if the plate was given any context. I bought it with the payout money for unused leave at my trauma surgery job before moving to my new place of employment. I worked in emergency med and critical care since 1999, so I have a fair bit of experience in understanding the severity of injuries that can happen from motorcycles and ATVs. Since obtaining my drivers license in 1992, I’ve had zero motor vehicle accidents. Zero motorcycle accidents. And in triathlon training from sprint to Ironman, zero bicycle accidents. I would think my experience, safety record and knowledge base would carry more sway than what I choose to put on a vanity plate on a motorcycle that I ride occasionally. I could be wrong about that.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
All that said...

Quote:
Divorce sucks, Divorce with kids really sucks, Divorce with kids with split custody where parents can't get along, really really sucks.


This is also true. It does suck. Hard. Even when you get along, divorce should take an emotional toll, especially with kids involved, if you're a normal human being who values bonds and vows and family and continuity and history and memories and all the things you may take for granted before it changes forever. I wish I never experienced divorce, even though I'm in a happy marriage. It has taken a toll and it's something I don't know if I'll ever fully heal from. It feels like the death of a part of you, and regardless of the percentage of blame it feels like you bear responsibility for killing it.

It gets easier but it's never easy. At least for me.

Yup, that's what I hear, and was my point. I know someone who basically got divorced before then honeymoon started, (not technically it took a month, but pretty much was over before it started, and never should have started) and I know the couple I mentioned above.

You can move on and have a great life, still doesn't change that the event doesn't suck.

You do have me very interested in how the court handles all this. Hopefully swiftly and fairly. But as I said before, he will find other ways to be a pain, seems like what he wants to do. Not ready to move on, probably pissed and jealous that she has moved on and doing well.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
If he feels rejection, it’s probably because of his historic absence, his non involvement with them when they did live together, his decision to move three hours away, his failure to call them for weeks at a time, and his persistent M.O. of putting his agenda above theirs when it’s his custody weekend.

In contrast, mom and I are always there, supporting their activities, spending quality time, and building a happy home. My advice to him, if he would listen, would be to stop making his weekends about his agenda and actually plug into the kids’ lives, be willing to sacrifice for them without being forced to, and show genuine respect for the woman who loves and cares for them day in and day out. He chooses the opposite, and they feel it. So while my wife isn’t actively interfering or dissuading them from a relationship with him, she’s not actively working to foster one because she knows first hand what kind of person he is, and what he is and is not capable of.

If you’ve never dealt with a malignant narcissist personality type it’s hard to convey just how toxic they are, and why a mother who has children with them wants as little interaction with them as humanly possible. Counseling is pointless, negotiation is one sided, and you are always the target of their ire when they feel at a disadvantage or wronged, which is almost a constant.

Careful - you are starting to cross your boundaries here and reading between the lines, you may be starting to become too invested in a situation that is between your wife and her ex. This is her battle to fight. I don’t know you or the ex or your wife, but I do have 15 years experience in family court hell - I can’t opine whether Dad is toxic or not, I’m just applying my experiences to what I’m reading.

The kids are with their dad 4 days out of the month. It’s his call what he does with the kids on his time. If he doesn’t want to drive the kids 3 hours on his time for them to play sports that you and your wife signed them up for, you need to let it go. You’re starting to sound like that you want the ex to fit with YOUR lives on his weekends.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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mv2005 wrote:
From what I recall reading over the years, for the most part I accept all that you’re saying (not that it matters if I do or not).

Right or wrong I’m trying to understand their mindset beyond pure spite. If they’ve always been non-sporting then I think it’s less spite and more that they’d rather be doing something else. I could see how it could be perceived as an extension of â€her time’’. Sometimes kids grow to love additional things upon exposure. Preferring to stay home to play sport could feel like a rejection of the person - which would hurt, depending on the person. I’m sure there’s compromises that could be found but understand they probably won’t ever get discussed.

I’m glad I’m not in that situation. My ex and I never moved on, and live 200m apart. Weve been walking dogs most mornings, spending Xmas with extended family and otherwise preoccupied with the issues with our oldest. As lonely as it feels at times, we are fortunate in many respects.

going to assume this metric and 200 meters, not 200 miles, I mean them would be some long walks for the dogs.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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BBB1975 wrote:
A few things:

- was the current custody order signed before or after he moved 3 hours away?

- why did he move away?

These questions are important because a quick google search shows that you can’t change a custody order in VA unless there is a material change in circumstance.

If the move was after the order was set, it would be on the Ex to show that the move was in the best interest of the kids. Moving for a higher paying job would work, moving to be with the new woman? Not so much. It would be on him to show the benefit, on your wife to rebut. The reason will also dictate how understanding the judge will be.

If the current order was set after the move, I would ask for the petition be dismissed as there isn’t a change in circumstances.

Some more:

- with Joint Legal, the court assumes that both parents are perfectly capable. Basically, both parties need to get over themselves about what goes on at the other house as long as there is no abuse and neglect. Riding ATV’s and mini bikes isn’t this. My guess is the judge would ask a few questions such as are you supervising them and are they wearing helmets and then say OK, no problem!

- when a parent has every other weekend, it is incumbent on the custodial parent NOT to intrude on the other parent’s time because the non custodial parent has such little time. If both parents live close to each other, sports and stuff should be pretty easy to deal with. Three hours away? Signing up the kids for sports and activities in the custodial parent’s town and expecting the non custodial parent to take kids to games three hours away is just not reasonable and realistic, no matter the reason for the move and is another reason why divorce sux. A judge could view it as a punishment move by your wife for him moving away.

A 4D chess move would be for your wife to offer 50/50 shared if he lived within a 20 minute radius. His response would speak volumes of how sincere he really is.

Most reasoned response, yet. I have been wondering about the motivation for the 3hr move (especially after the part of he is renting, and owns a house in town)

The 4D chess move is an interesting, one. But this guy could be just enough of an arse, to say, yeah okay, even if he doesn't want the kids, and in the end does nothing with them, the week he has them, you know to spite the wife.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:
BBB1975 wrote:
A few things:

- was the current custody order signed before or after he moved 3 hours away?

- why did he move away?

These questions are important because a quick google search shows that you can’t change a custody order in VA unless there is a material change in circumstance.

If the move was after the order was set, it would be on the Ex to show that the move was in the best interest of the kids. Moving for a higher paying job would work, moving to be with the new woman? Not so much. It would be on him to show the benefit, on your wife to rebut. The reason will also dictate how understanding the judge will be.

If the current order was set after the move, I would ask for the petition be dismissed as there isn’t a change in circumstances.

Some more:

- with Joint Legal, the court assumes that both parents are perfectly capable. Basically, both parties need to get over themselves about what goes on at the other house as long as there is no abuse and neglect. Riding ATV’s and mini bikes isn’t this. My guess is the judge would ask a few questions such as are you supervising them and are they wearing helmets and then say OK, no problem!

- when a parent has every other weekend, it is incumbent on the custodial parent NOT to intrude on the other parent’s time because the non custodial parent has such little time. If both parents live close to each other, sports and stuff should be pretty easy to deal with. Three hours away? Signing up the kids for sports and activities in the custodial parent’s town and expecting the non custodial parent to take kids to games three hours away is just not reasonable and realistic, no matter the reason for the move and is another reason why divorce sux. A judge could view it as a punishment move by your wife for him moving away.

A 4D chess move would be for your wife to offer 50/50 shared if he lived within a 20 minute radius. His response would speak volumes of how sincere he really is.


Most reasoned response, yet. I have been wondering about the motivation for the 3hr move (especially after the part of he is renting, and owns a house in town)

The 4D chess move is an interesting, one. But this guy could be just enough of an arse, to say, yeah okay, even if he doesn't want the kids, and in the end does nothing with them, the week he has them, you know to spite the wife.

Our state is a rebuttable presumption of 50/50 shared custody. In my experience, this is the best way as it keeps both parents engaged in all aspects of the kids vs the traditional every other weekend. In my case, we had 50/50 shared, 3 years in my ex moved 90 minutes away. My ex suggested that I get every other weekend to the judge as she felt it was in the best interest of the kids. The judge then said:

“ you wouldn’t have any issue than if I gave dad primary residency with you seeing the kids every other weekend?” My ex lost her 💩.

Here’s my experience with family court ( and I think I have had overall had good outcomes):

- Courts are very, very hesitant to make changes to agreements absent abuse or another parent moving. This means going to the judge because you don’t like the kids riding ATV’s with the other parent means all you will do is P/O the judge.

- when a parent moves, the court will bend over backwards to keep the kids with mom. When my ex moved, she was found in contempt for not getting court’s permission to move since it was 90 minutes away. When you read the judge’s decision and discussion, you would have thought my ex would have been lucky to see the kids. On the last page, he actually said since dad works, and mom doesn’t, it was in the best interest of the kids to live with mom.

- what dad wants or what mom wants doesn’t really matter. At the end of the day the judge is looking at it from what’s in the best interest of the kids.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I haven’t seen that thread in a while, so I’m not sure if the plate was given any context. I bought it with the payout money for unused leave at my trauma surgery job before moving to my new place of employment. I worked in emergency med and critical care since 1999, so I have a fair bit of experience in understanding the severity of injuries that can happen from motorcycles and ATVs. Since obtaining my drivers license in 1992, I’ve had zero motor vehicle accidents. Zero motorcycle accidents. And in triathlon training from sprint to Ironman, zero bicycle accidents. I would think my experience, safety record and knowledge base would carry more sway than what I choose to put on a vanity plate on a motorcycle that I ride occasionally. I could be wrong about that.

You explained yourself well there in that thread. And I understand why you chose that plate, and I also understand that a vanity plate is just that. And that it has no bearing on you.

You can accidentally splash water on your pants but everyone else is just going to think you pissed yourself.

Unfortunately the only thing that matters is perception. And if he is going to court to try and convince a judge that the vehicles and actions are unsafe then your chosen license plate (regardless of motivation) that says TRAUMA is not going to tip the scales toward safety. That’s all I was saying. Even despite your impeccable driving record; that’s the stupid part.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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As I said before, I am in an identical custody arrangement with my ex and what I suggest he needs to do for his kids and their relationship is exactly how I navigate mine. It isn’t convenient and it costs me time at home and money I would rather not spend. It’s really fucking difficult actually but I owe that to my kids, to be there for them and their lives, not just abduct them from theirs every other weekend.

It doesn’t change our schedule or increase our convenience one iota to have him here in town, where he owns a home. He already drives here to pick them up, it only requires spending Friday night in that local home and driving back to his rental house after the Saturday morning game. He refuses. It literally changes nothing but for the kids, who already don’t like going there because of the drive and their life and activities here. Believe me when I say that the sooner he vacates the area the happier we are.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I can't help, but I'm sorry you're dealing with all this.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Family lawyer here.

I’ve read this thread on and off since yesterday and can’t recall some (most?) of the specifics and don’t have time to re-read it all.

When the father moved away, were the children playing the sports on the weekend?

If they were enrolled int he sports after the move, when the mother enrolled the children in sports did she seek to discuss this with the father before doing so? As she would have known that these sports could impact upon the time their father has with them, when he lives so far away.

What time do the sports occur on the weekend?

How long does the father get them for? Ie days and times and how often.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:

going to assume this metric and 200 meters, not 200 miles, I mean them would be some long walks for the dogs.

That’s since splitting. Back when there was love? Well I would walk 500 miles…

Boom Ching
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Divorce: Everyone loves themselves most but want others to love them more than they love themselves. "To children, the voluntary separation of parents seems worse than their deaths precisely because it is voluntary---children do not realise that parents have right to their own lives; they think they have a right to total attention and they believe their parents must live for them. The sense of capriciousness and lack of direction to the common good seems a great injustice."

Allan Bloom wrote that about divorce in "The Closing of the American Mind" It is kinda hard to read.

https://www.demographic-research.org/...s/vol46/20/46-20.pdf

I think which is worse will be debated forever but divorce sucks. I feel bad for everybody going through it.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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*With respect to sport, I don't think it's unreasonable for parent 2, having shared custody, to be able to do what they want with their child when they have custody. Particularly if they only have the child for "5%" of the time. It should not be dictated by choices made by the primary caregiver (parent 1). I take onboard that the child may really want to participate in that activity every week, but I don't see that as being fair on parent 2 if several hours of their limited time requires them to stand on the sidelines and watch the child do something without them. The onus should be on parent 1 to explain to the child that yes they can do activity x, but they can only do it when at home. I don't think it's the judge's role (or frankly their right) to tell parent 2 that playing sport while they watch is better for the relationship than say sitting in a coffee shop talking over food for two hours.


I have the benefit of being on both ends of this arrangement which helps me keep my biases mostly in check. In other words, I don't apply a standard to what we expect of him any differently than I hold myself to as the father of kids who live primarily with their mother. I don't see it as "my" time with my kids, but their time that I bear primary responsibility for them, to run them to appointments, take them to games, sleepovers, birthday parties, etc. I make it about their time and their interests as much as possible. When they have events going on at home, I either stay in an area hotel to support those activities, or I allow them to stay with their mother that weekend if I can't break away from obligations at home. Their needs almost always come first, because it's their life and their developmental interests that matter most. My wife's ex sees it completely differently, that it's "his" time and that they need to be where he says they go and do what he plans, not them. It's a fundamentally opposite way of viewing your obligations as a parent who imposed divorce on the children we chose to have. So it is hard for me to see it from the other perspective, that the dad's time is just fun time with no actual work or mundane aspects of parenting involved.

But who knows. I'm sure there are plenty of family court judges who see it your way.

Why did you move so far away from your kids that if something is going on at their your kid’s mother’s house you need to stay at a hotel?


Personally, I think you are taking your situation and the fact that it works for you and thinking someone else in a similar situation would be ok with it. You need to disengage and let your wife handle it.

When a parent only has their kid 5% of the time, they are not a parent, they are an occasional visitor in their own children’s lives.

It’s not you or your wife’s call on what her ex does with the kids on his time. He has the kids 4-6 days a month. If a good portion of that time is spent at soccer games (where you and mom would probably attend), sleep overs where you or mom are good friends with the parents, etc, that’s not quality time with dad.

It’s very disingenuous for the parent who has the kids 95% of the time to complain about the other parent’s time just being “fun and games”. Guess what, your wife most likely ASKED for that arrangement!

Let’s say the ex moved back into the rental house. Would your wife be OK with the kids living with dad half the time since he’s local? Be honest.

Good for your wife’s ex for asking that she be imputed income for child support if she doesn’t work. That is the child support law in most states. Why should her ex pay more money in child support if she doesn’t work?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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“When the father moved away, were the children playing the sports on the weekend?”

They were <1, 4, and 6 at the time, so no.

“If they were enrolled int he sports after the move, when the mother enrolled the children in sports did she seek to discuss this with the father before doing so? As she would have known that these sports could impact upon the time their father has with them, when he lives so far away.”

Communication between them was best avoided for years due to his abusive behavior and a military imposed restraining order by his CO. As the custodial parent she is permitted to make recreational decisions without his input.

“What time do the sports occur on the weekend?”

Typically Saturday morning, finishes by noon.

“How long does the father get them for? Ie days and times and how often.”

Every other weekend, 2 weeks in the summer, alternate annual schedule for holidays, a week at spring break, 10 days at Christmas break. Additional time throughout the year when requested.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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mv2005 wrote:
DavHamm wrote:


going to assume this metric and 200 meters, not 200 miles, I mean them would be some long walks for the dogs.


That’s since splitting. Back when there was love? Well I would walk 500 miles…

Boom Ching

GROAN..

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
“When the father moved away, were the children playing the sports on the weekend?”

They were <1, 4, and 6 at the time, so no.

“If they were enrolled int he sports after the move, when the mother enrolled the children in sports did she seek to discuss this with the father before doing so? As she would have known that these sports could impact upon the time their father has with them, when he lives so far away.”

Communication between them was best avoided for years due to his abusive behavior and a military imposed restraining order by his CO. As the custodial parent she is permitted to make recreational decisions without his input.

“What time do the sports occur on the weekend?”

Typically Saturday morning, finishes by noon.

“How long does the father get them for? Ie days and times and how often.”

Every other weekend, 2 weeks in the summer, alternate annual schedule for holidays, a week at spring break, 10 days at Christmas break. Additional time throughout the year when requested.

In my jurisdiction, enrolling the children in sports etc is a guardianship decision, particularly when it impacts upon the other parent's time with the children. Consultation and agreement would be required before enrolling them in an activity which occurs during the other parent's contact with their children.

So, in my view, the mother should have consulted with the father about the sports before enrolling them knowing that this was going to impact upon his time with them. No wonder he is a bit mad about this...

It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.

The father is getting a decent amount of time in school term for living 3 hours away in my view. Which is good if the children can deal with the travel.

How does the travel (6 hours every second weekend) affect the children?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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There are so many incorrect assumptions here I don’t know where to begin or if it’s worth the effort.

“ You need to disengage and let your wife handle it.”

My opinions are consistent with hers and the years of abuse and gaslighting make it extremely difficult for her to manage these issues alone without emotional overload. If you’re lucky enough to have never experienced that, maybe just leave that alone.

“ When a parent only has their kid 5% of the time, they are not a parent, they are an occasional visitor in their own children’s lives.”

Again, no. I talk with my kids twice a day every day we’re not physically together, help with homework, troubleshoot problems etc. it’s not like being in the home but the relationship is what I make of it as it is living under the same roof.

“It’s not you or your wife’s call on what her ex does with the kids on his time. He has the kids 4-6 days a month.”

We are not trying to force him to do anything. I’m saying that if he wants to improve his relationship and not cause resentment he needs to change course. We see how he operates and how it affects the kids. They resent being taken 3h away every time they see him and that he won’t support them in their extracurriculars here. We are not petitioning to change that, but we will ask the court to continue to allow them to play sports even if he requires them to miss half of their games. Half is better than none.

“ a good portion of that time is spent at soccer games (where you and mom would probably attend), sleep overs where you or mom are good friends with the parents, etc, that’s not quality time with dad.”

He sends his kids to sleepovers at his neighbors house routinely. We are not close with any of the parents our kids hang out with.

“It’s very disingenuous for the parent who has the kids 95% of the time to complain about the other parent’s time just being “fun and games”.”

We’ve asked him to help with the kids homework over the weekend multiple times. Not a single time has it happened. I don’t know why you think you know so much about our situation as though we don’t have years of experience dealing with it.

“ Guess what, your wife most likely ASKED for that arrangement!”

Wrong. He asked for LESS time than was offered because he didn’t want to be obligated to it. Now he’s remarried and retired and wants to make changes that benefit him and have her pay his lawyer fees for the privilege. But keep on telling me what you know about our situation.

“Let’s say the ex moved back into the rental house. Would your wife be OK with the kids living with dad half the time since he’s local? Be honest.”


Probably not because he’s a habitual liar who’s destroyed any chance for a trusting coparenting relationship. That’s not an opinion. He got his ass handed to him in civil and military court for his bad behavior and nearly lost his career in addition to his family because of it.

“Good for your wife’s ex for asking that she be imputed income for child support if she doesn’t work.”

She does work part time in addition to her raising the kids full time. Yes, good on him for expecting her to work full time as well while raising his kids just so he can be off the hook for the cost of raising them, while bringing in $180k himself. Bravo.

Oh, and in that same conversation he suggested that my wife’s 70 year old parents could provide free childcare while she works full time so he shouldn’t be required to pay child care expenses either. Good for him, right?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Now he’s remarried and retired

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while bringing in $180k himself.

What does he do that he is retired and brings in $180K?????

IMO - You need to stay out of it and let the attorney handle it. You are much too close/invested.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?

No I am not saying that. But it could be argued that in enrolling the children in the sports without consulting him or getting his agreement that the mother knew that the children would likely miss out on the sports on â€his weekends’ and that this could disappoint the children if they are unable to compete on his weekends. Which is not a good thing for the children.

He may not be required to attend the sports or take them to their games/sports, but the children have been placed in a position where they are having time with their father played off against being involved in sports they presumably enjoy. All of which may have been avoided had there been consultation of some sort.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
sphere wrote:
“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?


No I am not saying that. But it could be argued that in enrolling the children in the sports without consulting him or getting his agreement that the mother knew that the children would likely miss out on the sports on â€his weekends’ and that this could disappoint the children if they are unable to compete on his weekends. Which is not a good thing for the children.

He may not be required to attend the sports or take them to their games/sports, but the children have been placed in a position where they are having time with their father played off against being involved in sports they presumably enjoy. All of which may have been avoided had there been consultation of some sort.

I think there are a couple of people (like yourself) who must not have taken part in any of the previous posting Sphere has done regarding this situation and the father in question. Obviously, we're only getting Sphere's side of the story, but given that understanding, it doesn't seem likely that consultation or accommodation or discussion or any other reasonable measure would resulted in a significant difference in the situation. Taking Sphere's accounts at face value, the issue isn't prior coordination. It's the father's desire to control the mother, his anger at having been caught out for his misbehavior, his resentment of the mother and basically anything she does, and his general intent to just consistently be a dick.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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By the way, it does sound like he would be/is difficult to deal with, so I can understand why your wife/partner may have made the decisions she did.

And that’s the problem with a lot of family court cases over parenting issues. People involved in family court are often terrible at communicating with each other for whatever reason.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
fulla wrote:
sphere wrote:
“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?


No I am not saying that. But it could be argued that in enrolling the children in the sports without consulting him or getting his agreement that the mother knew that the children would likely miss out on the sports on â€his weekends’ and that this could disappoint the children if they are unable to compete on his weekends. Which is not a good thing for the children.

He may not be required to attend the sports or take them to their games/sports, but the children have been placed in a position where they are having time with their father played off against being involved in sports they presumably enjoy. All of which may have been avoided had there been consultation of some sort.


I think there are a couple of people (like yourself) who must not have taken part in any of the previous posting Sphere has done regarding this situation and the father in question. Obviously, we're only getting Sphere's side of the story, but given that understanding, it doesn't seem likely that consultation or accommodation or discussion or any other reasonable measure would resulted in a significant difference in the situation. Taking Sphere's accounts at face value, the issue isn't prior coordination. It's the father's desire to control the mother, his anger at having been caught out for his misbehavior, his resentment of the mother and basically anything she does, and his general intent to just consistently be a dick.

Yes, potentially and I acknowledge that I haven’t closely read most of this thread in my first post on this thread. Only issue I was addressing was that of enrolling children in sports when game day falls on a day father is meant to have them when he lives 3 hours away and why that may make him upset, which could in turn lead to his other actions.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?

Parallel parenting is the way if he’s not agreeable. I would imagine the court would want to stay out of getting into the minutia of what activities the kids do. You don’t want the court getting into it either.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
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Now he’s remarried and retired


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while bringing in $180k himself.


What does he do that he is retired and brings in $180K?????

IMO - You need to stay out of it and let the attorney handle it. You are much too close/invested.

Agreed. Taking his claims at face value, he’s dealing with someone who can’t be reasoned with. When dealing with someone like this in family court, you have to be methodical and know the process. Keep emotion out of it because your judge deals with high conflict divorces all day every day. A good attorney who knows how to deal with this is key. Because, the other party will keep litigating until either they or you run out of money.

The facts seem to on his wife’s side. Namely, dad voluntarily moved 3 hours away and wanted overall minimal contact with the kids while at the same time owning a house in the same town.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
fulla wrote:
sphere wrote:
“It is a bit disingenous for the mother to say I can make all of the recreational decisions when part of that decision potentially has an impact on his time with the children.”

It doesn’t affect his time with them if he isn’t required to attend or allow them to attend. It has happened zero times, the kids ask, he says no, that’s how it has gone historically.

We have decided that all practices and half of all games is better than no sports at all, which is his default position. Are you saying the court would likely agree that none is better if they cannot agree?


No I am not saying that. But it could be argued that in enrolling the children in the sports without consulting him or getting his agreement that the mother knew that the children would likely miss out on the sports on â€his weekends’ and that this could disappoint the children if they are unable to compete on his weekends. Which is not a good thing for the children.

He may not be required to attend the sports or take them to their games/sports, but the children have been placed in a position where they are having time with their father played off against being involved in sports they presumably enjoy. All of which may have been avoided had there been consultation of some sort.

I think there are a couple of people (like yourself) who must not have taken part in any of the previous posting Sphere has done regarding this situation and the father in question. Obviously, we're only getting Sphere's side of the story, but given that understanding, it doesn't seem likely that consultation or accommodation or discussion or any other reasonable measure would resulted in a significant difference in the situation. Taking Sphere's accounts at face value, the issue isn't prior coordination. It's the father's desire to control the mother, his anger at having been caught out for his misbehavior, his resentment of the mother and basically anything she does, and his general intent to just consistently be a dick.

Based on his extensive posting history, there is nothing to suggest sphere’s version of events has been willingly embellished. But it’s not uncommon for people to truly believe their version of events as factual when this may not necessarily be the case. Therefore we need to be careful not to become an echo chamber as it does them few favours.

Dad could be in another forum explaining how his ex signed up the kids to sport without telling him and then made him look like the bad guy when he said he wasn’t taking them. Taking it on face value mum could be seen as vindictive, setting him up to look bad.

The kids have a right to play sport when with mum. Dad has a right to explore his own fun with the kids in his time. There are at least two ways this could have played out.

1 - mum tells dad that son is keen to play sport and she is prepared to sign him up on the condition that son accepts he can only attend when at home. When with dad he cannot play, because that’s dad’s time. Son has agreed to that, therefore that is what is happening. Dad might try and be vindictive by stealing some of mums glory and taking son every other week. Mum foots the bill. Dad surprises son and looks like the good guy. Win win for son.

2 - (accepting it was 100% sons choice) son tells mum they want to play sport. Mum thinks it’s great for health and signs him up. She and sphere support the hell out of him. Son asks about next weekend. Mum says â€ask your dad’ or does it herself then tells son bad news. If it wasn’t discussed upfront with son then I feel like that does throw dad under the bus a bit.

Marriage breakdowns bring out the worst in many. Kids often get caught up in spiteful back and forth. That in itself does not make the parents terrible people or indicate they don’t love their children. Those without kids or those fortunate to have avoided a split may not see how that is possible.

Separate point - it’s possible that renting out home 1 and buying home 2 further away can be a better financial decision. Family’s move all the time for better jobs, taking kids away from their friends or hobbies.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Taking his claims at face value, he’s dealing with someone who can’t be reasoned with.


In my 4 years of dealing with him I have never once seen him make a concession or do something that wasn't driven entirely by self interest, even though his bad behavior is the entire reason for the divorce and dynamics today. It's the first time I've had to deal with someone like this and it's been an eye opening experience.

Quote:
When dealing with someone like this in family court, you have to be methodical and know the process. Keep emotion out of it because your judge deals with high conflict divorces all day every day. A good attorney who knows how to deal with this is key. Because, the other party will keep litigating until either they or you run out of money.


All communication has been via email. As I mentioned, we could probably submit a printed binder of the dialogue and never have to speak a word in court. The judge will make of it what they will.
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The facts seem to on his wife’s side. Namely, dad voluntarily moved 3 hours away and wanted overall minimal contact with the kids while at the same time owning a house in the same town.


Dad moved full time to his Pentagon City apartment, 2.5h from the family home, where he worked and continued his extramarital dating operation, late 2019 when she kicked him out for the last time. The divorce and settlement agreement happened while he lived there. Sometime within the next year and a half he moved further away, to the north end of the Beltway, when he moved in with his new wife and her daughter. So the distance from the kids increased after the divorce was finalized. He cited this increased distance in his appeal to have mom bear more responsibility for bringing the kids to him.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 24 5:32
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The kids have a right to play sport when with mum. Dad has a right to explore his own fun with the kids in his time. There are at least two ways this could have played out.

1 - mum tells dad that son is keen to play sport and she is prepared to sign him up on the condition that son accepts he can only attend when at home. When with dad he cannot play, because that’s dad’s time. Son has agreed to that, therefore that is what is happening. Dad might try and be vindictive by stealing some of mums glory and taking son every other week. Mum foots the bill. Dad surprises son and looks like the good guy. Win win for son.

2 - (accepting it was 100% sons choice) son tells mum they want to play sport. Mum thinks it’s great for health and signs him up. She and sphere support the hell out of him. Son asks about next weekend. Mum says â€ask your dad’ or does it herself then tells son bad news. If it wasn’t discussed upfront with son then I feel like that does throw dad under the bus a bit.


The way it has played out is this: older two kids expressed desire to play sports with their friends (basketball, volleyball, soccer) when the seasons were gearing up. Mom said be sure you want to play what I sign you up for, kids agreed. Mom did not consult with bio father because she isn't obligated to and it wouldn't change anything if she did: he would either show up for them, or not. He has not. It is better to have them playing all of practices and half of games than not at all. It was not an attempt to force him to be in the area (trust me that is not on her list of wants) or to make him look bad. She and I both played sports as kids and we understand how beneficial that can be in a kid's life. When she has communicated to him at the kids request that they would like to participate in a game, she simply relays their message or tells the kids they need to talk to him about it if it's important to them. She has never criticized him or talked bad to the kids about him as a result. It is his choice to make. He is obligated to pick them up here, and he owns a home in town, so it isn't a major stretch to think he could spend the night here, take them to the game, then head home to Maryland after. It's not ideal for him, but nothing about moving 3h from your kids in a divorce is ideal. You make choices and figure out how to navigate the consequences.

Regarding the bolded above, my wife and I share the perspective that children are not objects or possessions. Their time is not "our time" or "his time," it is their time and it is our responsibility to act in their best interests at all times. I understand the need to balance the interest of the children and the rights of the father, but when the father makes decisions that severely impact the interests of the children, I think it's reasonable for there to be some sacrifices required of that father. How much and how often is, at this point, up to the courts, I guess.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 24 5:39
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
By the way, it does sound like he would be/is difficult to deal with, so I can understand why your wife/partner may have made the decisions she did.

And that’s the problem with a lot of family court cases over parenting issues. People involved in family court are often terrible at communicating with each other for whatever reason.

Thanks for weighing in. I addressed the move timeline in a recent post above.

He proposed coparenting counseling last year, as a direct result of him not getting what he wanted in terms of extra time with the kids when they had activities planned here (she offered to let them say with him here in the area, at his home; he ignored the offer as it wasn't on his terms). The reasons for his requesting counseling was a laundry list of his personal grievances and it was clear that he didn't want to improve communication but rather push her to agree to his terms. She replied that she would not sit in counseling with him, and cited the numerous previous marriage counseling sessions in which he lied repeatedly to the counselors and her (which she discovered after the fact) and said that two people cannot benefit from counseling if it's not entered into in good faith, and he has never, despite ample opportunity, dealt with her in good faith or honestly. So why subject herself to reliving that trauma. They agreed on a settlement, signed by a judge, and has lived up to it 100%. She should not be required to do more than that with someone who can't be trusted.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
Taking his claims at face value, he’s dealing with someone who can’t be reasoned with.


In my 4 years of dealing with him I have never once seen him make a concession or do something that wasn't driven entirely by self interest, even though his bad behavior is the entire reason for the divorce and dynamics today. It's the first time I've had to deal with someone like this and it's been an eye opening experience.

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When dealing with someone like this in family court, you have to be methodical and know the process. Keep emotion out of it because your judge deals with high conflict divorces all day every day. A good attorney who knows how to deal with this is key. Because, the other party will keep litigating until either they or you run out of money.


All communication has been via email. As I mentioned, we could probably submit a printed binder of the dialogue and never have to speak a word in court. The judge will make of it what they will.
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The facts seem to on his wife’s side. Namely, dad voluntarily moved 3 hours away and wanted overall minimal contact with the kids while at the same time owning a house in the same town.


Dad moved full time to his Pentagon City apartment, 2.5h from the family home, where he worked and continued his extramarital dating operation, late 2019 when she kicked him out for the last time. The divorce and settlement agreement happened while he lived there. Sometime within the next year and a half he moved further away, to the north end of the Beltway, when he moved in with his new wife and her daughter. So the distance from the kids increased after the divorce was finalized. He cited this increased distance in his appeal to have mom bear more responsibility for bringing the kids to him.

I’m guessing the judge lost his 💩 when he heard this? That’s a bold move,Cotton. Most Father’s Rights forums would have admonished him heavily to move back to where the kids live then come back and talk to us.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:

https://www.healthychildren.org/...TV-Safety-Rules.aspx

From 1985–2015, ATV crashes killed more than 3,000 children under the age of 16. Nearly 1 million more were taken to the emergency department due to an ATV crash. In fact, it's estimated that about 4 kids are seen in an emergency department every hour for an ATV-related injury in the United States.

Don't ride with or as a passenger. Most ATVs are designed to carry only one person: the driver. Passengers can make ATVs less stable and difficult to control.



You were saying? I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics is a bunch of city slickers.....


Didn't expect to see Windy being this person...



How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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“I’m guessing the judge lost his 💩 when he heard this? “

We will find out soon enough. I’m amazed that his lawyers even put this stuff before a judge to be quite honest. You would think a lawyer with any experience in this area would understand that the father moving away after the settlement agreement would not bode well for him, and it certainly wouldnt be viewed as compelling evidence to force the mother to do more of the driving.

On top of that, he was required by court order to notify the mother if he intended to move, which he did not.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 24 7:11
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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This is the section confirming his relocation following settlement.

Quote:
1. The Most recent order of custody and visitation for the parties’ children was entered on December 11, 2020. At all times subsequent to December 11, 2020, this action has remained on the active docket, including this Court’s most recent June 15, 2022 Order.

2. At time the December 11, 2020 Order was entered, the parties’ children were ages 9, 5, and l.

3. Father has relocated out of state to Maryland in December 2021. The current Custody and Visitation Order provides that Father provides all transportation.
Due to the fact that Father has relocated to Maryland, and that Mother is employed now in Maryland, it is in the children’s best interests that the transportation burden be reevaluated.



Their oldest was actually 7. Fine attention to detail.

This is the letter her employer has provided for the court:


Quote:
To whom it may concern,

(X) is presently employed as a (X), and works on an as-needed (PRN) basis to provide critical care services at (X). She works on average five 12-hour shifts per month, and historically those shifts have included day shifts (7a-7p) night shifts (7p-7a), mid shifts (11a-11p), weekdays, weekend, holidays, and emergent-need basis. As is the nature of a PRN position her schedule is ultimately determined by the needs of the staffing situation, not the employee, and so it is impossible to provide her with a consistent schedule from week to week or month to month, or to predict or guarantee what a PRN employee's schedule will be from one month to the next. I can be reached at the contact information below if there are any additional questions on this matter.




The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 24 8:30
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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and he owns a home in town, so it isn't a major stretch to think he could spend the night here

I thought you said he was renting it out.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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His primary residence in Maryland is a rental where he lives with his wife and stepdaughter (whose father lives in NJ). His house 4 miles from here is one he purchased last year and is rented out via AirBNB. He stays there with the kids on rare occasions when he has personal social events happening (some of his family lives here in the area as well).

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 24 11:57
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Idk I’m having a real hard time here accepting that the kids must miss out on half of ANYTHING they want to do simply because one of the parents doesn’t want to spend their time doing that on the weekend.

A couple of broadly accepted norms here:

1. Kids have one job: to be kids. And that includes participating in and enjoying sports or other hobbies/activities.

2. Participation in these thing regularly is good/improtant for the kids.

3. Sports or other activities are often held multiple times a week and on the weekends. I don’t care if you’re married, separated, or divorced. You had a kid then you should accept that should your kids choose to participate or express interest in these things with a normal expected time commitment then so be it.

If one parent chose to move 3 hours away and 90 min of sport commitment on “your weekend” is enough to ruin your weekend then you don’t deserve to have an equal right there. That parent chose a living situation that allowed 90 min to disrupt their entire weekend.

That parent has to either accept it and participate, accept it and not participate, or make other arrangements to make up for those weekend where they are not willing to have the child and allow the child to participate in their desired age-appropriate activity.

That whole situation is ridiculous because it’s not sports. Replace sports with any acceptable and necessary kids function.

This should be about the kid, not the parent and their schedule.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Idk I’m having a real hard time here accepting that the kids must miss out on half of ANYTHING they want to do simply because one of the parents doesn’t want to spend their time doing that on the weekend.

A couple of broadly accepted norms here:

1. Kids have one job: to be kids. And that includes participating in and enjoying sports or other hobbies/activities.

2. Participation in these thing regularly is good/improtant for the kids.

3. Sports or other activities are often held multiple times a week and on the weekends. I don’t care if you’re married, separated, or divorced. You had a kid then you should accept that should your kids choose to participate or express interest in these things with a normal expected time commitment then so be it.

If one parent chose to move 3 hours away and 90 min of sport commitment on “your weekend” is enough to ruin your weekend then you don’t deserve to have an equal right there. That parent chose a living situation that allowed 90 min to disrupt their entire weekend.

That parent has to either accept it and participate, accept it and not participate, or make other arrangements to make up for those weekend where they are not willing to have the child and allow the child to participate in their desired age-appropriate activity.

That whole situation is ridiculous because it’s not sports. Replace sports with any acceptable and necessary kids function.

This should be about the kid, not the parent and their schedule.

This is my perspective exactly. And it isn’t theoretical for me, it’s how I approach my job as divorced father of two boys who live primarily with their mother. I never make it about my preferences or schedule and when there’s a schedule event that I cannot accommodate I work it out with their mother and they almost always stay with her for the weekend and we make it up later.

It’s hard but I don’t see any other fair way to handle it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
His primary residence in Maryland is a rental where he lives with his wife and stepdaughter (whose father lives in NJ). His house 4 miles from here is one he purchased last year and is rented out via AirBNB. He stays there with the kids on rare occasions when he has personal social events happening (some of his family lives here in the area as well).

I see. Thank you for the explanation.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Idk I’m having a real hard time here accepting that the kids must miss out on half of ANYTHING they want to do simply because one of the parents doesn’t want to spend their time doing that on the weekend.

A couple of broadly accepted norms here:

1. Kids have one job: to be kids. And that includes participating in and enjoying sports or other hobbies/activities.

2. Participation in these thing regularly is good/improtant for the kids.

3. Sports or other activities are often held multiple times a week and on the weekends. I don’t care if you’re married, separated, or divorced. You had a kid then you should accept that should your kids choose to participate or express interest in these things with a normal expected time commitment then so be it.

If one parent chose to move 3 hours away and 90 min of sport commitment on “your weekend” is enough to ruin your weekend then you don’t deserve to have an equal right there. That parent chose a living situation that allowed 90 min to disrupt their entire weekend.

That parent has to either accept it and participate, accept it and not participate, or make other arrangements to make up for those weekend where they are not willing to have the child and allow the child to participate in their desired age-appropriate activity.

That whole situation is ridiculous because it’s not sports. Replace sports with any acceptable and necessary kids function.

This should be about the kid, not the parent and their schedule.

This is my perspective exactly. And it isn’t theoretical for me, it’s how I approach my job as divorced father of two boys who live primarily with their mother. I never make it about my preferences or schedule and when there’s a schedule event that I cannot accommodate I work it out with their mother and they almost always stay with her for the weekend and we make it up later.

It’s hard but I don’t see any other fair way to handle it.

If the judge had the balls they would laugh at him in court and tell him to suck it up and that only a selfish shit parent would force their young child to miss half of their activities bc the parent was too inconvenienced. What a victory for kids that would be.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Your points 1 and 2 are correct.

Your point 3 is opinion, made from the (assumed) privileged position of not having gone through divorce with kids and further, being the one who doesn’t get much time with them.

We can cast judgement all we like, but every case is different and one can’t possibly understand the mindset of individuals until we’ve truly walked in their shoes.

Yes it would be nice for the kid if dad curtailed to every whim and desire. It would also be nice for dad if he got to introduce his own activities to the child. Will the relationship be better if dad is in a happier place or the child? Who knows. But I think the scars are deeper in the parents. Kids are more resilient.

I think I’ve made my point so will step back.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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mv2005 wrote:
Your points 1 and 2 are correct.

Your point 3 is opinion, made from the (assumed) privileged position of not having gone through divorce with kids and further, being the one who doesn’t get much time with them.

We can cast judgement all we like, but every case is different and one can’t possibly understand the mindset of individuals until we’ve truly walked in their shoes.

Yes it would be nice for the kid if dad curtailed to every whim and desire. It would also be nice for dad if he got to introduce his own activities to the child. Will the relationship be better if dad is in a happier place or the child? Who knows. But I think the scars are deeper in the parents. Kids are more resilient.

I think I’ve made my point so will step back.

This.

I’ve been pretty hard on Sphere in this thread because his take is the cliche’d take where dad is the absent father who abandons the kids for the new wife - it’s easy to say Sphere is right, dad is wrong. Most situations are not that simple and disagreements on activities is very common. It does not take into account how easy it for the custodial parent to manipulate the kids and emotionally abuse the non custodial parent by using the kids as the bat to browbeat the other parent.

In my situation, my ex moved 90 miles away to another state, enrolled the kids in a new school without my knowledge, the court, or the old school’s knowledge, and blew up 3 years of shared 50/50 custody. As soon as I found out, I got an injunction filed, sent it to the new school, and she was stuck schlepping the kids 90 miles each way to the old school for two months until we got a court date.

When the kids were with her during this time, my ex would have them call me and say how they wanted to do activities at mom’s place, go to school there, etc. They understandably hated the drive. I was berated daily by her friends and family members about “how could I do this to the kids, I was selfish and trying to control my ex”.

In the decision, my ex was found in contempt for interfering with my custodial rights, found to have attempted to manipulate the court by filing false child abuse charges against me, found to have coached the kids in their testimony. She also somehow convinced the judge that her affair partner DID NOT beat the crap out of her despite me presenting to the court the police report and the hand written PFA that she filed but later dropped the charges.

The knock against me? I had been out of work for six months, found a job an hour away, but had to hire a nanny to do pick up and drop off at school. That was the rationale for the judge to award her primary residency to her when we went to court. The decision was crazy. But, that is family court for you.

This set off 6 years of her ALWAYS trying to set up activities for the kids on my weekends at her place. She wanted them to go fox hunting every weekend with her. She said I can follow along on my mountain bike while she and her fiancée rode with the kids. It would be what’s best for the kids! Ummmm, no. That’s making ME be a spectator for an activity you do with the kids on MY TIME.

I had the kids 3/4 weekends every month, and the whole summer. I signed my son up for in house ice hockey, my daughter bounced around a bit between karate, clarinet, and gymnastics. They had a whole summer of different summer camps. Usually around May of every year, one of the kids would develop some mysterious illness which would require therapy 2-3x’s a week at mom’s house during the summer. I told her to get bent. I’d take the kids to specialist for a second opinion, always got a clean bill of health, and went on with my summer despite constant haranguing from the ex that I was slowly killing the kids by not doing what she wanted.

This madness finally ended in 2018 when the affair partner beat the crap out of my son and his mom. He pled guilty to the charges. Mom still let the guy live with her. Of course I took her to court and I was awarded sole legal custody, and mom could only see the kids if she didn’t take them to her house.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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“I’ve been pretty hard on Sphere in this thread because his take is the cliche’d take where dad is the absent father who abandons the kids for the new wife - it’s easy to say Sphere is right, dad is wrong

Is it a cliched take if you witness it first hand, witness the toll it takes on the kids, while suggesting the kids’ best interest should be paramount? At the same time not just talking the talk about his stepchildren but also walking the walk with his own?

Your ex violated every rule of common sense and the principle of children first in divorce. She paid the price as she should, but it still cost you time, money, aggravation and trauma to your child. I’m sorry for all of that. In both cases the kids got the shaft and it should never happen. I think we can agree on this.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
“I’ve been pretty hard on Sphere in this thread because his take is the cliche’d take where dad is the absent father who abandons the kids for the new wife - it’s easy to say Sphere is right, dad is wrong

Is it a cliched take if you witness it first hand, witness the toll it takes on the kids, while suggesting the kids’ best interest should be paramount? At the same time not just talking the talk about his stepchildren but also walking the walk with his own?

Your ex violated every rule of common sense and the principle of children first in divorce. She paid the price as she should, but it still cost you time, money, aggravation and trauma to your child. I’m sorry for all of that. In both cases the kids got the shaft and it should never happen. I think we can agree on this.

As a step parent, you have no official say in your spouse’s custody arrangement with the ex. The court decided that both parents are equally capable to make decisions that’s in the best interest of the kids. At the end of the day, it’s not you or your wife’s call on what the kids do with their dad on his time because the court felt that dad can make decisions that are in the best interest of the kids.

Keeping continuity in kid’s activities despite the custody arrangement sounds great on paper but it is easily countered as all dad has to say are things along the line such as “ I only see the kids 4 days per month. That’s four days where I have to make sure they have time to see grandma and grandpa, their cousins, as well as bond with their step siblings. If I had to spend 2 of those days taking them to soccer games 3 hours away, they may never see those relatives and definitely not be able to bond with their step sibs.”

It is a hard fight to get something as specific about kid’s activities in a custody agreement. The judge isn’t going to take your word or your wife’s word or dad’s word that their plan is “more” in the best interests of the kids. The judge would want to see the opinion of a neutral third party who is trained in child development. It will be expensive and the risk is the third party may not be on your side. Some options are:

- custody evaluation
- Guardian ad Litem ( a lawyer who represents the kids)

Generally the costs are split between the parties and they are not cheap.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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mv2005 wrote:
Your points 1 and 2 are correct.

Your point 3 is opinion, made from the (assumed) privileged position of not having gone through divorce with kids and further, being the one who doesn’t get much time with them.

We can cast judgement all we like, but every case is different and one can’t possibly understand the mindset of individuals until we’ve truly walked in their shoes.

Yes it would be nice for the kid if dad curtailed to every whim and desire. It would also be nice for dad if he got to introduce his own activities to the child. Will the relationship be better if dad is in a happier place or the child? Who knows. But I think the scars are deeper in the parents. Kids are more resilient.

I think I’ve made my point so will step back.


How can the first two points be accepted but not the third?

Also, its HIS fault he doesnt have much time with them. He moved 3 hours away.

I didn't say the dad must curtail to "every whim and desire." But the first two points basically point out the job of a kid is to be a kid and that sports and activities are important for children. This father chose to move 3 hours away and he even still owns a residence in the kid's main area. HIS actions are what made it difficult for him to have to juggle everything. And in this case, it's a very reasonable commitment for his child.

IF he hadn't moved this far away, then this very normal and very appropriate time commitment wouldn't be an issue (but I have a feeling it still would be. Yes I know this is also an opinion based on what info we have had already).

Let's look at it a different way. If they were together in the same house/town and the mother worked shifts every other Sunday but the father really wanted to just sit and watch his sports, would we call him a lousey SOB if he said "its my time off and I just want to sit home and do what I prefer instead of spending my time driving him to his local soccer game every other weekend!"?

I'm not saying he has to be like our friends who sign their girls up for every sport and never say "no" (their quote was "we'll never say no to anything they ask because we want them to experience everything they want). But if you decide to be a parent, you are assuming the responsibility to provide the child with reasonable opportunities to be a child and not make them feel guilty about that.
Last edited by: Yeeper: Jan 10, 24 9:26
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
mv2005 wrote:
Your points 1 and 2 are correct.

Your point 3 is opinion, made from the (assumed) privileged position of not having gone through divorce with kids and further, being the one who doesn’t get much time with them.

We can cast judgement all we like, but every case is different and one can’t possibly understand the mindset of individuals until we’ve truly walked in their shoes.

Yes it would be nice for the kid if dad curtailed to every whim and desire. It would also be nice for dad if he got to introduce his own activities to the child. Will the relationship be better if dad is in a happier place or the child? Who knows. But I think the scars are deeper in the parents. Kids are more resilient.

I think I’ve made my point so will step back.


How can the first two points be accepted but not the third?

Also, its HIS fault he doesnt have much time with them. He moved 3 hours away.

I didn't say the dad must curtail to "every whim and desire." But the first two points basically point out the job of a kid is to be a kid and that sports and activities are important for children. This father chose to move 3 hours away and he even still owns a residence in the kid's main area. HIS actions are what made it difficult for him to have to juggle everything. And in this case, it's a very reasonable commitment for his child.

IF he hadn't moved this far away, then this very normal and very appropriate time commitment wouldn't be an issue (but I have a feeling it still would be. Yes I know this is also an opinion based on what info we have had already).

Let's look at it a different way. If they were together in the same house/town and the mother worked shifts every other Sunday but the father really wanted to just sit and watch his sports, would we call him a lousey SOB if he said "its my time off and I just want to sit home and do what I prefer instead of spending my time driving him to his local soccer game every other weekend!"?

I'm not saying he has to be like our friends who sign their girls up for every sport and never say "no" (their quote was "we'll never say no to anything they ask because we want them to experience everything they want). But if you decide to be a parent, you are assuming the responsibility to provide the child with reasonable opportunities to be a child and not make them feel guilty about that.

Yeeper is 100% correct. It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them. Unless someone is a potential danger to the kids, judges are extremely hesitant to get involved in the minutia. The judge seemed to be OK with dad moving away and that’s the framework Sphere’s wife and ex have to operate in. It’s a crappy situation caused by dad, but a family court judge spends their days resolving crappy issues caused by thoughtless parents.

Yeeper’s point is there are a lot of legit reasons why the judge would give Sphere’s wife the side eye if she brought up that dad won’t let the kids do activities 3 hours away from his house during the four days he has them. The dad can use any of the below reasons and Sphere’s wife will look like a b%$@& to the judge by pushing the issue with the sports.

- need time to see grandparents, cousins, etc
- need time to bond with step siblings
- make cookies with dad
- eat dinner as a family
- sit around and play XBox
- go to church
- sit around and watch Frozen 12 times during the weekend. When Frozen is not on, watch Taylor Swift You Tube videos

All of this is bonding time with dad and his family - it’s just as important for development and bonding as playing sports. It’s easy for these things to be worked around sports and into the daily grind when the kids are with you 25-27 days out of the month. 4 days a month? Not happening even with the best logistics.

By personal experience, being the non residential parent is awkward as hell at activities in the residential parent’s area.

Games:
- other parents / coaches will naturally gravitate to the residential parent to chat/discuss things. You’re not ignored, but you aren’t included either
- the kids will naturally gravitate to the residential parent first after the game.
- the kid is invited to go to dinner and then sleep over at Joey’s after the game. This is asked when there’s a crowd including mom, Joey’s parents, and other kids and parents are standing there.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
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307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

The father moved three hours away and has made it clear he has no intention of participating in the lives of the children where they live.

Meaning he willingly left them and will be removing them from their sports, friends, familiarities, and comforts INTENTIONALLY because he is too inconvenienced to make that effort. Remember, he stills owns a house where they live. He just doesn’t feel like supporting that part of their life. And it seems out of selfishness or spite.

So who exactly is in the wrong ?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
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307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

The father moved three hours away and has made it clear he has no intention of participating in the lives of the children where they live.

Meaning he willingly left them and will be removing them from their sports, friends, familiarities, and comforts INTENTIONALLY because he is too inconvenienced to make that effort. Remember, he stills owns a house where they live. He just doesn’t feel like supporting that part of their life. And it seems out of selfishness or spite.

So who exactly is in the wrong ?

If he had no intention to participate in the lives of his children, he could simply not participate at all. You seem to be ignoring that as an actual option. He is obviously making significant effort.

As far as moving three hours away, as I recall, he moved in with his new wife and stepchild. I’m assuming the new wife had a little bit to say about where they lived, and there may even be another individual and possibly legal restrictions involved due to the bio father of his new stepchild which may dictate where they can live.

Maybe not? We only have one extremely biased side of Us the story atm.

Try to think beyond the first dimension.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.

I’m guessing you have no experience with raising kids or going through family custody struggles?
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
307trout wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

The father moved three hours away and has made it clear he has no intention of participating in the lives of the children where they live.

Meaning he willingly left them and will be removing them from their sports, friends, familiarities, and comforts INTENTIONALLY because he is too inconvenienced to make that effort. Remember, he stills owns a house where they live. He just doesn’t feel like supporting that part of their life. And it seems out of selfishness or spite.

So who exactly is in the wrong ?

If he had no intention to participate in the lives of his children, he could simply not participate at all. You seem to be ignoring that as an actual option. He is obviously making significant effort.

As far as moving three hours away, as I recall, he moved in with his new wife and stepchild. I’m assuming the new wife had a little bit to say about where they lived, and there may even be another individual and possibly legal restrictions involved due to the bio father of his new stepchild which may dictate where they can live.

Maybe not? We only have one extremely biased side of Us the story atm.

Try to think beyond the first dimension.

Bolded: that’s not what was said. You left out three very important words in the rest of that quote: “where they live.”

It’s not that he doesn’t want to participate in their lives. Sphere said he doesn’t want to participate in the lives where they (the kids) live.

His actions seem to be out of spite or frustration with the situation and he is just taking it out on the kids.

It doesn’t matter WHY he left. The only thing that matter is that he DID leave town. You can throwing out possible scenarios as to why he has a good excuse to move, but that doesn’t change the fact that he did and he is a non-custodial parent who chose to move 3 hours away. In that situation it’s what’s in the best interest of his children. Not what’s in the best interest of his new wife, or his step kid’s or his step kid’s biological father. They don’t belong in this conversation.

A judge should rule what’s in the best interest of the kids and one non-custodial parent chose to live in an area with a 3 hour trip that completely upends the kid’s lives because now it’s forcing them to miss half of their age appropriate activities and relationships with other friends and comforts.

If you disagree then we’ll have to wait and see what the ruling is.


But don’t kid yourself, his new family is irrelevant in this discussion. As slowly already pointed out, we have no reason to believe Sphere is lying or omitting information.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Overwhelming bias is noted.
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…


Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.


I’m guessing you have no experience with raising kids or going through family custody struggles?

I’m guessing you can’t read? Sphere has been pretty open about how things have gone with his wife and the father.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…


Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.


I’m guessing you have no experience with raising kids or going through family custody struggles?

I’m guessing you can’t read? Sphere has been pretty open about how things have gone with his wife and the father.

And I’m guessing you’ve never been accused of an extremely distorted one sided account of the situation as it stands?

We have read one side of the story, with seemingly zero attempt at neutrality and every attempt to paint the opposing party in as negative of a light as possible.

There are always two sides.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…


Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.


I’m guessing you have no experience with raising kids or going through family custody struggles?

I’m guessing you can’t read? Sphere has been pretty open about how things have gone with his wife and the father.

And I’m guessing you’ve never been accused of an extremely distorted one sided account of the situation as it stands?

We have read one side of the story, with seemingly zero attempt at neutrality and every attempt to paint the opposing party in as negative of a light as possible.

There are always two sides.

Do you think Sphere is just trying to dupe the forum? You think his main goal is to fall asleep knowing he tricked all of us into believing his side of the story?

What does he have to gain from that?

If you actually read his OP you’d see he was painting a picture to try and get feedback on how the rulings might go. What the hell is the point of doing that if he’s just making it up?

Let’s do it your way. Let’s say he is feeding us some bullshit. If reality is different then the judge’s ruling is the only thing the matters. Not the LR’s internet armchair opinions. He can’t fire back at the judge and say “but your honor the Lavender Room disagrees with your ruling.”

He’s done nothing out provide us with insights that allow us to make sound decisions or inferences.
Quote Reply
Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
slowguy wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…


Well, it seems she has almost all the responsibility for feeding, housing, and raising the kids, so, yeah, that’s how that works.


I’m guessing you have no experience with raising kids or going through family custody struggles?


I’m guessing you can’t read? Sphere has been pretty open about how things have gone with his wife and the father.


And I’m guessing you’ve never been accused of an extremely distorted one sided account of the situation as it stands?

We have read one side of the story, with seemingly zero attempt at neutrality and every attempt to paint the opposing party in as negative of a light as possible.

There are always two sides.

Yeah, I heavily caveated my post just a bit ago with that very fact. Like I said, read.

Regardless, your posts aren’t just considering that there might be two sides. You’re making affirmative statements about what the father is doing that you have no way of knowing.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
He’s done nothing out provide us with insights that allow us to make sound decisions or inferences.

We are only reading it through Sphere-sided glasses. That may or may not be the 100% truth. It is 100% the truth as he sees it, but he is not impartial in the matter.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
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There’s spheres truth, the dad’s truth and the actual truth.

Having said that, Sphere previously told us that his last marriage ended because he cheated on his wife. If Sphere was a bullshitter, he likely wouldn’t have told us that.

Having said that… I feel confident that the actual truth is closer to Spheres truth than the Dads truth.

Having said all of that… it’s 100% possible that Sphere is a hermit that gets his jollies by completely making up a ridiculous life and posting about it in the LR. If so, he takes good notes about what he’s posted.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Last edited by: BLeP: Jan 11, 24 4:03
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [307trout] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.

I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.

Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.

Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…

Are you really suggesting it’s unfair to abide by the agreement that the mother and father willingly entered in to?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
He’s done nothing out provide us with insights that allow us to make sound decisions or inferences.

We are only reading it through Sphere-sided glasses. That may or may not be the 100% truth. It is 100% the truth as he sees it, but he is not impartial in the matter.

Correct. Which is why I said he provided insights so we can make our own decisions. And it’s why I did not say he is giving us his completel unbiased story.

Sphere admitted that this is his biased take in the OP itself.

He was recounting the situation as he sees it and taking our temperature on how the court might rule. As I just said, what does he have to gain from lying about that because the courts will not care about the LR.

See Blep’s reply above. Both Slowguy, blep, and myself have taken into account Sphere’s posting on the matter for some time now. That helps us when it comes to replying.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sphere wrote:
307trout wrote:
sphere wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
It’s dad’s time with the kids. Unless he agreed to it or the court ordered it, Sphere’s wife doesn’t have any say in how he decides to spend time with them.


I think, if we all look back to Sphere's OP (and several other posts), the mother isn't trying to dictate how the father spends his alotted time with the kids. It's the father who is complaining and asking for concessions from the mother. The discussion about sports and the father not supporting sporting events on the weekend was just to illustrate where his priorities are. Sphere was pretty clear that the mother told the kids to expect that they might not get to take part in sports activities when it was their father's time.


Exactly right. Mom essentially wants to abide by the agreement in place and be left alone.


Well, since she has nearly every advantage when it comes to her kids, off course she wants to “abide by the agreement in place”. No shit…


Are you really suggesting it’s unfair to abide by the agreement that the mother and father willingly entered in to?


I think what he really means is possession is 90% of the law. The burden is on dad to prove to the court that it is in the best interest of the kids to modify an agreement. Mom just doesn’t need to do anything dumb that would jeopardize the status quo. So yes, abide by the agreement and be left alone.

Both parties are also more than welcome to modify the existing agreement on their own and the judge would be more than happy to sign off.

Based on my experience, only thing I see the judge changing would be more time with dad during the summer. Sphere’s wife’s work schedule is too variable for a sane judge to put a requirement around that in the agreement.

If I were Sphere’s wife, I would request that the judge put in the agreement a deadline on when dad is to notify mom of the days he’s taking the kids during school holidays.
Last edited by: BBB1975: Jan 11, 24 5:58
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
and taking our temperature on how the court might rule.

I didn’t know any of us here were family court judges. I might take advice here on many subjects, but how a judge might rule would not be one of them. I also would not want to have all of this discoverable. You may have a different opinion.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Last edited by: ironclm: Jan 11, 24 5:58
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
Quote:
and taking our temperature on how the court might rule.


I didn’t know any of us here were family court judges. I might take advice here on many subjects, but how a judge might rule would not be one of them. I also would not want to have all of this discoverable. You may have a different opinion.

I honestly wonder if people can be bothered to read what people post before they opine. Here is the very first sentence of this thread.

Quote:
Yes, I know a lawyer in our state is best suited to answer these questions, and we are meeting with him this week, but I'm curious if anyone has personal experience with how judges tend to rule on these issues.


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
ironclm wrote:
Yeeper wrote:

He’s done nothing out provide us with insights that allow us to make sound decisions or inferences.


We are only reading it through Sphere-sided glasses. That may or may not be the 100% truth. It is 100% the truth as he sees it, but he is not impartial in the matter.


Correct. Which is why I said he provided insights so we can make our own decisions. And it’s why I did not say he is giving us his completel unbiased story.

Sphere admitted that this is his biased take in the OP itself.

He was recounting the situation as he sees it and taking our temperature on how the court might rule. As I just said, what does he have to gain from lying about that because the courts will not care about the LR.

See Blep’s reply above. Both Slowguy, blep, and myself have taken into account Sphere’s posting on the matter for some time now. That helps us when it comes to replying.


Agree with all of that.

It would serve me no purpose to knowingly withhold relevant context and details in this conversation; I've only asked how a family court may view these issues given the details, and there isn't much subjective interpretation to the facts of the matter when it comes to the items he's bringing before the court.

He agreed to the settlement as is. She has abided by it 100% of the time, and given him more time and access than was required by the agreement. He wants more and he doesn't want it to be on anyone's terms but his. I take Cathy's point about blind spots in how we see and present our view of the case; it's important to check yourself and your bias when looking at the facts when headed into court, so believe me, I'm not overplaying his bad behavior or underreporting bad behavior on our part. Sometimes a situation is such that one party is simply in the wrong and it requires an authority figure to sort it out. That's what happened in the divorce hearing, it's what happened in his Army General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand (GOMOR) trial where he was found guilty of serial infidelity and abuse, and it's what happened when he tried to keep the gains on a marital retirement account that was split 50/50 by the court. I know it's hard for some people who've never dealt with a person like this before to accept that the problem can be 100% with one party in a relationship, but I've seen it with my own eyes and ears for the last four years, and I can tell you this isn't a normal human being who experiences shame or learns from prior poor decisions. The only way to deal with them is to protect yourself from them physically and emotionally, and to draw and maintain absolute boundaries.

I am happy to provide clarifying context on any of these issues because, again, my purpose was not to win an internet argument with someone who isn't participating, but to try to understand how the courts tend to weigh on these matters.

In every item he brings before the court that the court should take interest in, she has made accommodations for him, given him more time and access than required, and only said no when it compromised the kids' schedules in ways that would upset them. An example that typifies his approach to these matters: he asked for facetime access two days per ween, Tuesday and Thursday between 5 and 7pm. She bought the kids tablets (her expense) and set up their accounts for two way communication and told him, and them, that they can call anytime before 730p, any day of the week. He complained that he was having trouble reaching them on the tablets despite her or I having any difficulty with that whatsoever. So she installed a land line phone in addition to the tablets, again at her expense, so she wouldn't have to field more complaints about it. He simply doesn't call very often, and she has told him multiple times that if he wants to speak to them more often, he just needs to call more often.

On the flip side, and this will come up in court, he does not allow the kids to call home when they're with him unless it's a week long visit. He denies them phone access to their mother while complaining that the above and beyond she's done for his access isn't sufficient. I don't know how you reason with that or think that taking it before a judge will work out in your favor, but here we are.

He listed among the complaints that there has been "frustration about the means of phone or video communication;" in reality, the only thing he's genuinely frustrated by is the fact that after multiple warnings she blocked his number from her personal phone due to ongoing harassment. When she told him that he can reach her anytime by email, the kids by tablets, but that he will no longer be able to call or text her directly except for when the kids are with him, his response was, "sorry but you don't get to make the rules."

She has given him additional time in the summer, additional weekends that he was not entitled to, and had made a standing offer for them to spend time with him on school day afternoons and "her" weekends provided that the kids remain in town and get to their events. He has said explicitly that he will not "stay in her town" during his time with the kids, and has ignored every offer to extend his time with them here since. He has come to town multiple times and never bothered to see the kids or ask if they were available. Last weekend he took his nephew off-roading a few miles from here. Daughter asked if she could see him, he said there wasn't enough room to take her with them, sorry. She cried about it that night.

This is almost entirely about control for him, and when he doesn't have it, he directs his anger at her. To this day he drives across our lawn when picking up the kids just to be a dick, because he's been told not to but what are we going to do about it. He has no capacity to control her life anymore so he nips around the edges and this is more of the same. He wants the agreement changed, wants to paint her as a terrible person despite his actions being solely responsible for the breakup of the marriage, and he wants her to pay the cost of the court date, which would be entirely unnecessary if he'd communicate and negotiate like a normal human being.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 11, 24 6:59
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Based on my experience, only thing I see the judge changing would be more time with dad during the summer. Sphere’s wife’s work schedule is too variable for a sane judge to put a requirement around that in the agreement.


She is happy to grant him that, provided it's advanced notice and they can work together on the dates so the kids don't unnecessarily miss important events. The problem is he doesn't ask, he dictates when it will be, leaving her in a position to hold the line and say no if it conflicts with their existing schedule. Again, I live this situation with my ex-wife and understand how easy it is to avoid this simply by trying to be agreeable and cooperative. It shouldn't take a judge.


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If I were Sphere’s wife, I would request that the judge put in the agreement a deadline on when dad is to notify mom of the days he’s taking the kids during school holidays.

They have that in place for the existing week in the summer. The deadline came and went, he didn't give her dates to work with in time, then harassed her about the plans she made on those days not being important enough to deny him that week. It was the week of July 4. He then tried to claim another week that overlapped with our scheduled family vacation and cried foul that he wasn't entitled to that either. The point of the deadline is so that his time gets protected and so that she/we can plan around it. She follows the agreement to the letter and gives him the opportunity for more access. He doesn't follow the agreement and then expects to get what he wants when he doesn't. That's the pattern and it has never changed.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
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and taking our temperature on how the court might rule.

I didn’t know any of us here were family court judges. I might take advice here on many subjects, but how a judge might rule would not be one of them. I also would not want to have all of this discoverable. You may have a different opinion.

Sphere literally acknowledged and addressed this in the OP.

Did you bother to read it before replying to me?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
ironclm wrote:
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and taking our temperature on how the court might rule.


I didn’t know any of us here were family court judges. I might take advice here on many subjects, but how a judge might rule would not be one of them. I also would not want to have all of this discoverable. You may have a different opinion.

I honestly wonder if people can be bothered to read what people post before they opine. Here is the very first sentence of this thread.

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Yes, I know a lawyer in our state is best suited to answer these questions, and we are meeting with him this week, but I'm curious if anyone has personal experience with how judges tend to rule on these issues.

They cannot.

Preconceived notions tend to drive these kinds of replies more than reading comprehension or a legitimate desire to actually add to the conversation.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
There’s spheres truth, the dad’s truth and the actual truth.

Having said that, Sphere previously told us that his last marriage ended because he cheated on his wife. If Sphere was a bullshitter, he likely wouldn’t have told us that.

Having said that… I feel confident that the actual truth is closer to Spheres truth than the Dads truth.

Having said all of that… it’s 100% possible that Sphere is a hermit that gets his jollies by completely making up a ridiculous life and posting about it in the LR. If so, he takes good notes about what he’s posted.

You need to add the Judge’s truth since it is a family court issue!
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
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and taking our temperature on how the court might rule.


I didn’t know any of us here were family court judges. I might take advice here on many subjects, but how a judge might rule would not be one of them. I also would not want to have all of this discoverable. You may have a different opinion.

I am not asking for advice. Implied in my OP was the question of whether people have had experience in family court that might shed some light on how judges approach these matters. Sort of like we do here on any number of topics.

It's an anonymous forum full of lawyers and parents, both posting and lurking. I don't know if any of them are family court judges and it really doesn't matter if they are or not.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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BBB1975 wrote:
BLeP wrote:
There’s spheres truth, the dad’s truth and the actual truth.

Having said that, Sphere previously told us that his last marriage ended because he cheated on his wife. If Sphere was a bullshitter, he likely wouldn’t have told us that.

Having said that… I feel confident that the actual truth is closer to Spheres truth than the Dads truth.

Having said all of that… it’s 100% possible that Sphere is a hermit that gets his jollies by completely making up a ridiculous life and posting about it in the LR. If so, he takes good notes about what he’s posted.

You need to add the Judge’s truth since it is a family court issue!

Was the judge involved in any of the private conversations between Sphere, the mom, and the dad? No. And he/she has gotten no more than we are getting: a second hand account of what has transpired.

Do with respect to this conversation(s) there is, as blep said, the dad’s interpretation of the truth, Spheres interpretation of the truth, and then the actual truth.

No judge needed in that context.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
BLeP wrote:


Sphere is a hermit that gets his jollies by completely making up a ridiculous life and posting about it in the LR.


See Blep’s reply above.


Agree with all of that.




How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Last edited by: BLeP: Jan 11, 24 6:51
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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with respect to this conversation(s) there is, as blep said, the dad’s interpretation of the truth, Spheres interpretation of the truth, and then the actual truth.

No judge needed in that context.


As I mentioned, all of this is spelled out in black and white in emails and older texts. We've gone item by item and printed the relevant section of the settlement agreement and the email exchanges. There is no he-said, she-said because there is literally no real time in person communication between them, except for his comments made at pick up and what the kids have told us about their experiences which don't need to be part of the hearing.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 11, 24 7:00
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
As I mentioned, all of this is spelled out in black and white in emails and older texts. We've gone item by item and printed the relevant section of the settlement agreement and the email exchanges. There is no he-said, she-said because there is literally no real time in person communication between them, except for his comments made at pick up and what the kids have told us about their experiences which don't need to be part of the hearing.


As you know, I’ve dealt for over a decade with an ex that was a lot like the Dad. I think you’re bringing out my PTSD! Your wife is doing all the right things on how to deal with someone who Can’t Understand Normal Thinking and has a Basic Inability To Comprehend Humanity.

My ex liked to do speech to text in her emails and all I would get is a 6 page rambling rant to a simple question such as what time do you want to pick up the kids?

Have you tried “Our Family Wizard”? It’s an app that’s designed to deescalate conflict by putting everything in a central repository. All email communication and read receipted, it can provide an accounting and categorization of all spending, etc. It was great!

For example with the spending, you take a picture of the receipt, add details. If it’s a reimbursable expense, or something that is part of the support order (copays, daycare, etc), it goes to the other parent, the can hit accept, then it goes to the running tally of who owes who and how much.

The magic sauce is a lot of courts also use it - i.e the judge or custody evaluator can have read access which makes discovery and fact finding a lot easier.
Last edited by: BBB1975: Jan 11, 24 7:16
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Have you tried “Our Family Wizard”? It’s an app that’s designed to deescalate conflict by putting everything in a central repository. All email communication and read receipted, it can provide an accounting and categorization of all spending, etc. It was great!


No, but she had considered that option at one point, but found the email-only solution seemed sufficient to manage things effectively and with minimal emotional damage. I'll definitely take a look at it though if you've had good experiences with it.

I can't imagine going through what you did with your ex and son. I'm impressed that her abusive BF isn't buried under a shrub somewhere on your property. From reading the little anecdote you provided I think you probably understand what it's like dealing with a damaged human being and how you reach a point where you've exhausted all desire and ability to continue beating your head against the wall when you know what the result will be. Hard lines enforced by the court are your only refuge. "All the ducks all the time" is the mantra--keep your ducks in a row 100% of the time and document it so there's no foothold for fuckery. Keep all receipts.

I appreciate you sharing those details and your perspective on father's rights. As you know I have a personal interest in that side of it as well.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 11, 24 7:25
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Did you bother to read it before replying to me?

I can't remember six fucking pages.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Did you bother to read it before replying to me?

I can't remember six fucking pages.

It was the first sentence of the first post on the first page.

So…?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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Have you tried “Our Family Wizard”? It’s an app that’s designed to deescalate conflict by putting everything in a central repository. All email communication and read receipted, it can provide an accounting and categorization of all spending, etc. It was great!


No, but she had considered that option at one point, but found the email-only solution seemed sufficient to manage things effectively and with minimal emotional damage. I'll definitely take a look at it though if you've had good experiences with it.

I can't imagine going through what you did with your ex and son. I'm impressed that her abusive BF isn't buried under a shrub somewhere on your property. From reading the little anecdote you provided I think you probably understand what it's like dealing with a damaged human being and how you reach a point where you've exhausted all desire and ability to continue beating your head against the wall when you know what the result will be. Hard lines enforced by the court are your only refuge. "All the ducks all the time" is the mantra--keep your ducks in a row 100% of the time and document it so there's no foothold for fuckery. Keep all receipts.

I appreciate you sharing those details and your perspective on father's rights. As you know I have a personal interest in that side of it as well.

I can offer a glimpse of hope too. The abusive boyfriend had a satisfyingly painful and drawn out death in February 2021. He had an aneurysm in the fall of 2020 and never left the hospital. He was intubated the whole time and enjoyed his final thanksgiving and Xmas meals through a feeding tube.

This was during peak COVID and the hospital told my ex that she could stay by his bedside but she would not be allowed back into the hospital if she left. So she hung out for 3 months in the hospital with him! She came very close to losing her house since she had to quit her job. I found out a few months ago that her sister and mom had to give her money for food at the hospital during that time.

After he died, she’s been a completely different person. We get along perfectly fine now. She stayed out of the college process other than a sounding board for our daughter and going on visits. My daughter was able to earn an appointment to the Naval Academy, received a 4 year ROTC scholarship to her second choice. My daughter would not have gotten into the Academy if the boyfriend was still alive as he was such a negative black cloud over everything. Plus, my ex would have wanted to run things. Even in good times she’s massively disorganized.

Now, my ex and I host our daughter’s company mates for post football game tailgates, we are pros at it. The ex and I both went to Penn State, prior to the divorce, we had PSU season tix, my folks were those people who rolled into State College on Wednesday in their massive RV and tailgated for 5 days straight. The RV was sold, but we both still know how to tailgate right.

My ex hasn’t said anything to me, but a few months ago she thanked my wife for being the mother to the kids when my ex couldn’t be. Then, my college roomate came to the Air Force game , he hadn’t seen or talked to my ex since before the divorce. He told her she hasn’t changed one bit - she told him she wasn’t in her right mind for a very long time. So, I think my ex has realized the chaos and damage she had caused by her years long denial of the physical and emotional abuse heaped on her and the kids.

Our daughter is in the military, our son is a union electrical lineman making over six figures at 21 and is on his own. I’m always cordial and friendly to my ex now. My wife still hates my ex - all my wife remembers is how awful my ex was to me and the kids so she sees it from a very different perspective. She didn’t know my ex before the ex met the abuser.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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I can offer a glimpse of hope too.

I'm happy you arrived at a peaceful place after all of that. That's a gift.

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Now, my ex and I host...

The best we can hope for is that he leaves her alone. I don't know what the pathology was with your ex, but my wife's ex is classic narcissistic personality disorder and that generally never improves. You are a means to an end as she found out on their wedding day. One of their counselors during a reconciliation attempt told her she has two choices; leave, or he (the counselor) could help her learn how to cope with his abuse because he will never change. He has never once apologized for his behavior or shown any contrition or acknowledgment that he destroyed their marriage, but rather blamed her for "not loving him enough" to work through "their" problems together. When she finally kicked him out for the last time he cut off all funds to their house, kids, tuition, everything. He thought nothing of punishing the kids for her daring to stand up to him.

It takes sometimes superhuman self restraint to keep my mouth shut when I have to be around him for any length of time. People here are saying I'm too close to this and should let her handle it, but it's our life and our finances and our day to day life that's affected by his bullshit, not just hers. She's met her obligations to the letter and still she has to defend herself in court and pay for the privilege. So no, I don't anticipate tailgating together anytime soon.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Quote:
I can offer a glimpse of hope too.


I'm happy you arrived at a peaceful place after all of that. That's a gift.

Quote:
Now, my ex and I host...


The best we can hope for is that he leaves her alone. I don't know what the pathology was with your ex, but my wife's ex is classic narcissistic personality disorder and that generally never improves. You are a means to an end as she found out on their wedding day. One of their counselors during a reconciliation attempt told her she has two choices; leave, or he (the counselor) could help her learn how to cope with his abuse because he will never change. He has never once apologized for his behavior or shown any contrition or acknowledgment that he destroyed their marriage, but rather blamed her for "not loving him enough" to work through "their" problems together. When she finally kicked him out for the last time he cut off all funds to their house, kids, tuition, everything. He thought nothing of punishing the kids for her daring to stand up to him.

It takes sometimes superhuman self restraint to keep my mouth shut when I have to be around him for any length of time. People here are saying I'm too close to this and should let her handle it, but it's our life and our finances and our day to day life that's affected by his bullshit, not just hers. She's met her obligations to the letter and still she has to defend herself in court and pay for the privilege. So no, I don't anticipate tailgating together anytime soon.

I have no idea what her pathology is but once the guy got his claws into her, she completely flipped. Backstory is he’s her 2nd cousin, and one of those scumbags who “works” in the horse industry but really just wants to rip people off. He’s a master manipulator. The guy was an alcoholic with a bunch of DUI’s, never held down a job, and his father finally got fed up with his bs and kicked him off his farm. He also spent some time in jail for the DUI’s. We had a horse farmette with an old single wide on the property and we agreed to let him stay temporarily in exchange for helping with the horses. I worked in pharma and was more than happy for free help since I worked a lot of hours - he’s family, right? What could go wrong?

One day, out of the blue, about two months after he moved into the trailer, she asked for a divorce. Her reasoning was she’s changed, I can’t provide what she needs which is a partner that is as in to horses as she is. Little did I know that horse partner was her second cousin. It made no sense. I suggested counseling, she said no, the 2nd cousin told her it wouldn’t work. I found out about the relationship about a month after she asked for a divorce when I walked in on them.

He was a Svengali but she let herself be manipulated.
.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Good god man. That’s one hell of a story.

Horse girls are crazy. I would know, I married one. I’ll let you know how that works out ;)

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Good god man. That’s one hell of a story.

Horse girls are crazy. I would know, I married one. I’ll let you know how that works out ;)

All girls are crazy, but as an aside, my best friends tried to set me up with a "horse girl" a couple of decades ago. We met about 3 times in various contexts and she always smelled like she just came from the stables.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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It’s an acquired assault on the senses.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Idk I’m having a real hard time here accepting that the kids must miss out on half of ANYTHING they want to do simply because one of the parents doesn’t want to spend their time doing that on the weekend.

A couple of broadly accepted norms here:

1. Kids have one job: to be kids. And that includes participating in and enjoying sports or other hobbies/activities.

2. Participation in these thing regularly is good/improtant for the kids.

3. Sports or other activities are often held multiple times a week and on the weekends. I don’t care if you’re married, separated, or divorced. You had a kid then you should accept that should your kids choose to participate or express interest in these things with a normal expected time commitment then so be it.

If one parent chose to move 3 hours away and 90 min of sport commitment on “your weekend” is enough to ruin your weekend then you don’t deserve to have an equal right there. That parent chose a living situation that allowed 90 min to disrupt their entire weekend.

That parent has to either accept it and participate, accept it and not participate, or make other arrangements to make up for those weekend where they are not willing to have the child and allow the child to participate in their desired age-appropriate activity.

That whole situation is ridiculous because it’s not sports. Replace sports with any acceptable and necessary kids function.

This should be about the kid, not the parent and their schedule.

This came to a head of sorts last night.

Middle kid (8) has a basketball game scheduled for this weekend. His dad called last night and he was excited to ask if he would take him to the game. He told him no and that he's not allowed to sign up for activities on his weekend. He melted down crying and told him it's really important to him, how much he loves playing basketball and how he's getting better at it, and the answer was still no. He asked if he could stay home this weekend to play in his game and was again told no. Kid ended the conversation by telling him he hates him and threw the phone down. When his older sister picked up the phone dad conveyed the same message to her, that she is not to participate in any activities that fall on his weekend. When she hung up with him she said to her mom that she'll be getting a talking to this weekend about it. She then broke down in tears talking about how much she wants to play volleyball next season and how she can't without him getting mad at her and making her feel guilty for it. We reassured her that she will get to play, as will her brother, and that she'll attend all of her practices and at least half of their games at a minimum, but that we can't guarantee her what will happen on his scheduled weekends.

It's hard to see the emotional turmoil given how avoidable it all is. Divorce sucks for everyone but it doesn't need to be this hard on them.

I just can't get my head around that way of thinking.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Sad to hear kids' are caught in the middle.

Is it known what their dad/ex has planned for his weekends with kids? From his perspective if he's got some special activities planned (his POV), then there's an argument to be made about doing that instead of the sports. But if he's doing this for spite b/c he wasn't part of signing them up, then that's d-bag behavior.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
A couple of broadly accepted norms here:

1. Kids have one job: to be kids.

I just saw this and unfortunately, a lot of people, do not either believe or understand this.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on anything, but I don't think it's spite toward the kids or my wife. He just doesn't want to inconvenience himself by staying in the area when he'd rather be home. From what the kids tell us they have things planned on just about every visit there, but they're things he or his wife plans and they always override whatever else the kids have going on around home.

If I had to sum it up as accurately and objectively as possible, it would be that he does not consider what the kids want or need on the weekends he views as "his" time, not theirs. He alone decides what they will do, not their schedule or commitments or anything their mother has enabled them to do, and if they're disappointed by missing, it's her fault for setting them up for disappointment. I don't think that's me being derogatory, it's just objectively a fundamentally different way of exercising your right and privilege as a parent. As he did in marriage he puts his own wants and needs above everyone and everything, with predictable results. He is not there for them, they are there for him.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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What does her attorney say about when the kids can petition which parent to live with and how much they have to see the other parent? My nephew went through this as a kid but I don't remember at what age.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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In Virginia a child has to comply with visitation until age 18. I don't know what if any mitigating factors may affect that obligation but I would imagine they would have to be severe, like compelling evidence of abuse or neglect. Being a dick probably doesn't meet that threshold.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on anything, but I don't think it's spite toward the kids or my wife. He just doesn't want to inconvenience himself by staying in the area when he'd rather be home. From what the kids tell us they have things planned on just about every visit there, but they're things he or his wife plans and they always override whatever else the kids have going on around home.

If I had to sum it up as accurately and objectively as possible, it would be that he does not consider what the kids want or need on the weekends he views as "his" time, not theirs. He alone decides what they will do, not their schedule or commitments or anything their mother has enabled them to do, and if they're disappointed by missing, it's her fault for setting them up for disappointment. I don't think that's me being derogatory, it's just objectively a fundamentally different way of exercising your right and privilege as a parent. As he did in marriage he puts his own wants and needs above everyone and everything, with predictable results. He is not there for them, they are there for him.

Right. So he would have to come down for their games (inconvenient), vs. stay north/his home and his time w/kids.

Trying to look at this in a balanced way, if whatever he and his wife have planned w/the kids is thought to be worthwhile for the kids (from his POV), there's still an argument to be considered, over their sports. Sunday school (religious), language school (cultural) are examples that come to mind of an activity a parent might think is in the best interest of their kid doing, and not necessarily something a kid may want to do. But if the kids' are just tagging along on an activity that's primarily fun for dad (shooting range outing?), then yeah that's not really kids interests first.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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The real issue here is, and I hope it doesn't come to this for their sake, is that it would precipitate a complete cut-off physically and emotionally of the child/children if they wanted us to pursue that for them since the law is clear that 18 is the age of record. From what I've read a court would hear a case of a young tween/teen who pushes for it. It would be a death sentence for their relationship with their dad.

The oldest has told us that both he and his wife heap on the guilt when they voice any emotion that isn't favorable to dad, like wanting to stay home on an important weekend or having him stay in the area to support an activity, the four year old voicing homesickness at his house, etc. All three have been told that it's hurtful to tell their dad they don't want to go with him, that if they loved him they wouldn't make him feel bad, things of that nature. Very much like in their prior marriage, any expression of feelings or desires (or boundaries) that don't meet his needs is met with emotional manipulation. If you love me you wouldn't feel this way...that sort of stuff. It's a lot for kids to process.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
The real issue here is, and I hope it doesn't come to this for their sake, is that it would precipitate a complete cut-off physically and emotionally of the child/children if they wanted us to pursue that for them since the law is clear that 18 is the age of record. From what I've read a court would hear a case of a young tween/teen who pushes for it. It would be a death sentence for their relationship with their dad.

The oldest has told us that both he and his wife heap on the guilt when they voice any emotion that isn't favorable to dad, like wanting to stay home on an important weekend or having him stay in the area to support an activity, the four year old voicing homesickness at his house, etc. All three have been told that it's hurtful to tell their dad they don't want to go with him, that if they loved him they wouldn't make him feel bad, things of that nature. Very much like in their prior marriage, any expression of feelings or desires (or boundaries) that don't meet his needs is met with emotional manipulation. If you love me you wouldn't feel this way...that sort of stuff. It's a lot for kids to process.

I’m sorry but fuck that guy. He’s already damaging their relationship and I don’t see any outcome that is favorable for said relationships if he continues with his antics.

I’m a firm believer that blood doesn’t give one a free pass for carte blanche. Sure he’s their biological dad but it doesn’t seem like that’s healthy for them. You’re home environment is likely far better suited for their physical, mental, and emotional needs.

They must comply until 18? Despite their wishes and schedules? Fuck that. And forget just sports. What if the kids have a job that they need to get to? Kids start working at 15. Weekend hours are common. Relationships and school events that take place after hours and on weekends.


Seriously, fuck this guy. I hope it gets thrown back in his face in court especially after the phone call you just described.

I couldn’t imagine doing that to my kid. I’m so sorry you and they have to put up with his pathetic insecure ass.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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Trying to look at this in a balanced way, if whatever he and his wife have planned w/the kids is thought to be worthwhile for the kids (from his POV), there's still an argument to be considered, over their sports. Sunday school (religious), language school (cultural) are examples that come to mind of an activity a parent might think is in the best interest of their kid doing, and not necessarily something a kid may want to do. But if the kids' are just tagging along on an activity that's primarily fun for dad (shooting range outing?), then yeah that's not really kids interests first.

I don't know all of the details of their activities and I hesitate to speculate, but generally from what they report at home they are kid-friendly if not always kid-focused activities most weekends (parties with the adult neighbors next door are the most common; they have one child roughly the age of the middle kid). But no, they are not doing anything like religious training or language immersion or cultural educational things of that nature with any regularity. I do know that for certain. That said, I do value the exposure they get to events and activities accessible in the city they don't have access to around here, and I think they benefit from it. The issue is that their wants and desires are always subjugated to the father's. As I've written here before, if one of my sons has something important going on at home where they live primarily with mom, I either attend with them, or if I can't break away from commitments at home, I let them stay with their mom and we make up the time later either at his place or mine. It just takes the willingness to do so and the understanding that they are human beings with wants and needs beyond my own.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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They must comply until 18? Despite their wishes and schedules? Fuck that. And forget just sports. What if the kids have a job that they need to get to? Kids start working at 15. Weekend hours are common. Relationships and school events that take place after hours and on weekends.

Correct. It will only get worse as they age up.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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My oldest would hate me if I regularly kept him from playing hockey.

My youngest would hate me if I regularly kept him from playing soccer.

I wouldn't do that to them and if I did, I would expect them to hate me for it.

Sounds like he's a special animal. Makes me wonder why he wants to see them at all.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
The real issue here is, and I hope it doesn't come to this for their sake, is that it would precipitate a complete cut-off physically and emotionally of the child/children if they wanted us to pursue that for them since the law is clear that 18 is the age of record. From what I've read a court would hear a case of a young tween/teen who pushes for it. It would be a death sentence for their relationship with their dad.

The oldest has told us that both he and his wife heap on the guilt when they voice any emotion that isn't favorable to dad, like wanting to stay home on an important weekend or having him stay in the area to support an activity, the four year old voicing homesickness at his house, etc. All three have been told that it's hurtful to tell their dad they don't want to go with him, that if they loved him they wouldn't make him feel bad, things of that nature. Very much like in their prior marriage, any expression of feelings or desires (or boundaries) that don't meet his needs is met with emotional manipulation. If you love me you wouldn't feel this way...that sort of stuff. It's a lot for kids to process.

Age 18?!?! Do they have a therapist? This shits needs to be brought up to him/her and the attorney.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
sphere wrote:
specifically riding around the farm on the back of an ATV or learning to ride a minibike.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to adopt.

City boy.

That’s not an insult. I grew up in an urban/suburban environment. But spent many summers on the farm.

I’d say riding on the back of am ATV (or being allowed to operate farm equipment) is no more risky than bombing down a hill on a skateboard without a helmet. Or BMX in a somewhat local quarry. Or being allows at age 12 to spend the day surfing with friends (oldest was 15) with no adult supervision. Or to swim and snorkle off the cliffs at Abalone Cove, again with no supervision or even a lifeguard on duty.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, in reality it's a tough situation. Partly b/c it seems like dad's not flexible - about coming south, adjusting schedules, commitments, activities, etc. etc. There isn't the necessary give/take happening, and little flexibility.

It seems oddly counter-intuitive (to me, at least) that the recourse is to go back to court and have it be decided via amendments to legal agreements. Legal agreements, more explicit terms and conditions, all binding -- it's the exact opposite of being more flexible.

Between the dad north around urban DC and you guys in a more rural area a bit south, the kids have a chance of being exposed to the best of both worlds, which could be uniquely good. Instead of Jr playing his basketball game that weekend, maybe go to a Wizards home game? (even though they suck). Or do some of the great museum stuff around DC (Air/Space is great w/kids). Have kids do the "best" of things in the time they have with whomever and wherever. Life should be free flowing. Could be a beautiful thing. In theory.

I do hope that you all get through this in the best possible ways.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
sphere wrote:
The real issue here is, and I hope it doesn't come to this for their sake, is that it would precipitate a complete cut-off physically and emotionally of the child/children if they wanted us to pursue that for them since the law is clear that 18 is the age of record. From what I've read a court would hear a case of a young tween/teen who pushes for it. It would be a death sentence for their relationship with their dad.

The oldest has told us that both he and his wife heap on the guilt when they voice any emotion that isn't favorable to dad, like wanting to stay home on an important weekend or having him stay in the area to support an activity, the four year old voicing homesickness at his house, etc. All three have been told that it's hurtful to tell their dad they don't want to go with him, that if they loved him they wouldn't make him feel bad, things of that nature. Very much like in their prior marriage, any expression of feelings or desires (or boundaries) that don't meet his needs is met with emotional manipulation. If you love me you wouldn't feel this way...that sort of stuff. It's a lot for kids to process.

Age 18?!?! Do they have a therapist? This shits needs to be brought up to him/her and the attorney.

Yea it’s absolutely baffling to me. I can understand at younger ages when it’s imperative to foster the relationship with both parents and each are (mostly) deserving of the opportunity to connect with their child.

But at age 13 at least kids should start to have a say especially if one is being forced to miss out on half of their extracurricular lives simply because one parent is too selfish and inflexible. If you electively choose to move three hours away then you forfeit a large part of the leg that you have to stand on when it comes to negotiating the custody arrangements. You had a kid. Kid needs to be a kid. Sort your shit out.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, in reality it's a tough situation. Partly b/c it seems like dad's not flexible - about coming south, adjusting schedules, commitments, activities, etc. etc. There isn't the necessary give/take happening, and little flexibility.

It seems oddly counter-intuitive (to me, at least) that the recourse is to go back to court and have it be decided via amendments to legal agreements. Legal agreements, more explicit terms and conditions, all binding -- it's the exact opposite of being more flexible.


Nail on the head.

My wife has only asked that he not be disrespectful to her, that he abide by the agreement so there's no room for argument, and to not make plans for the kids on undefined time without communicating with her in advance. Thus far he's batting zero on all fronts.

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Between the dad north around urban DC and you guys in a more rural area a bit south, the kids have a chance of being exposed to the best of both worlds, which could be uniquely good.

In theory, yes. In reality, it's always hard for kids being taken away from their place of comfort even if it benefits them in terms of exposure to all the things you'd want a kid to see, learn, and do. Like I said, I appreciate that aspect of their time there, but ultimately what matters most (at least thinking back to when I was a kid, and I don't think most parents would disagree) is simply showing up for your kids, showing them how much you care by investing yourself in them and their lives and activities and pursuits. As BLeP I think correctly noted, it's pretty easy to get resentful toward a parent that doesn't give a shit what you want especially when you've made it explicitly clear to them that it matters to you. And as Yeeper mentioned, what happens when there are jobs, parties, boyfriends/girlfriends and other majorly important things that teens want or need to be home for--sorry for your luck? If my dad was responsible for my parents' divorce, then moved to another state and moved in with another woman and her kid, and told me that nothing I had going on at home was important enough for him to allow or support or show up for, resentment wouldn't begin to describe my feelings for him. I'd be counting down the days 'tull I never saw his face again.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 30, 24 10:44
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
Between the dad north around urban DC and you guys in a more rural area a bit south, the kids have a chance of being exposed to the best of both worlds, which could be uniquely good. Instead of Jr playing his basketball game that weekend, maybe go to a Wizards home game? (even though they suck). Or do some of the great museum stuff around DC (Air/Space is great w/kids). Have kids do the "best" of things in the time they have with whomever and wherever. Life should be free flowing. Could be a beautiful thing. In theory.

That may be able to work in some situations, but it really doesn't fit with organizational sports, where you have practices during the week and games every weekend, during the season. Some leagues may be able to accommodate custody situations like this and allow a kid to miss every other game, but even in those situations, there are still bound to be some negative impacts. I suspect other leagues may not accommodate it, especially when they get in to high school level. If I were to have told my high school coach that I'd need to miss every other game, I'd either have been off the team or on the bench. Basically, the dad here is saying that the kids cannot participate in any organization sport or activity that requires a commitment every weekend during the season. There could be a compromise where it's done one way during the season and another for the remainder of the year. But it doesn't sound like dad is willing to compromise in the least.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if it's possible to count the number of tv shows or movies where all the kid really wants is for dad to show up and watch the game, yet the dad keeps missing because of his job (usually a cop). It's a common theme because it's one that people relate to, because there's a lot of truth to that desire. And while I can understand the tension a parent feels when they aren't able to show up because they have important work or other commitments, I can't understand who not only doesn't show up but insists that the kid miss out on the game.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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Basically, the dad here is saying that the kids cannot participate in any organization sport or activity that requires a commitment every weekend during the season.

He has said that to my wife in the past; she replied that she will not keep them from going with him on his time but that she will continue to allow and encourage them to play sports and participate in clubs regardless if some games or events fall on his weekends, and he can decide what happens on those days. Last night he said it explicitly to the kids for the first time--I don't want you signing up for sports or activities that fall on my weekends. So he's put it on them now to be conflicted not just about missing games but for even signing up for it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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Basically, the dad here is saying that the kids cannot participate in any organization sport or activity that requires a commitment every weekend during the season.


He has said that to my wife in the past; she replied that she will not keep them from going with him on his time but that she will continue to allow and encourage them to play sports and participate in clubs regardless if some games or events fall on his weekends, and he can decide what happens on those days. Last night he said it explicitly to the kids for the first time--I don't want you signing up for sports or activities that fall on my weekends. So he's put it on them now to be conflicted not just about missing games but for even signing up for it.

This isn't a problem, it's a fricking opportunity.

You should start a sports league for kids of divorced parents and you only play every other weekend.

BOOM!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Would the court allow you to move farther away from the kids' father?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [RogerC39] [ In reply to ]
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RogerC39 wrote:
I don't know if it's possible to count the number of tv shows or movies where all the kid really wants is for dad to show up and watch the game, yet the dad keeps missing because of his job (usually a cop). It's a common theme because it's one that people relate to, because there's a lot of truth to that desire. And while I can understand the tension a parent feels when they aren't able to show up because they have important work or other commitments, I can't understand who not only doesn't show up but insists that the kid miss out on the game.

This is very true and how it was when I was a kid. My dad worked out of town and had trouble getting to games during the week, but he always made time for the big games, made it a point to ask me about the games, took an interest, even though he was not athletic and didn't really understand the game. I don't remember the games he didn't go to, I remember all of them he did see.

All in all, even if it's hard to be present, you can always take an interest. As Robin Williams says in Good Will Hunting, "It's not about you!"

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
RogerC39 wrote:
I don't know if it's possible to count the number of tv shows or movies where all the kid really wants is for dad to show up and watch the game, yet the dad keeps missing because of his job (usually a cop). It's a common theme because it's one that people relate to, because there's a lot of truth to that desire. And while I can understand the tension a parent feels when they aren't able to show up because they have important work or other commitments, I can't understand who not only doesn't show up but insists that the kid miss out on the game.


This is very true and how it was when I was a kid. My dad worked out of town and had trouble getting to games during the week, but he always made time for the big games, made it a point to ask me about the games, took an interest, even though he was not athletic and didn't really understand the game. I don't remember the games he didn't go to, I remember all of them he did see.

All in all, even if it's hard to be present, you can always take an interest. As Robin Williams says in Good Will Hunting, "It's not about you!"

And what you don't do is say, "I can't be there, or worse, it's inconvenient for me to be there; therefore, you can't participate."
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on anything, but I don't think it's spite toward the kids or my wife. He just doesn't want to inconvenience himself by staying in the area when he'd rather be home. From what the kids tell us they have things planned on just about every visit there, but they're things he or his wife plans and they always override whatever else the kids have going on around home.

If I had to sum it up as accurately and objectively as possible, it would be that he does not consider what the kids want or need on the weekends he views as "his" time, not theirs. He alone decides what they will do, not their schedule or commitments or anything their mother has enabled them to do, and if they're disappointed by missing, it's her fault for setting them up for disappointment. I don't think that's me being derogatory, it's just objectively a fundamentally different way of exercising your right and privilege as a parent. As he did in marriage he puts his own wants and needs above everyone and everything, with predictable results. He is not there for them, they are there for him.

So my step daughters deal with a dad very similar to this but thankfully not this bad.
It’s all about “his” time and not “their” time.

I’ve been around 8 years. They are now 17 and 14.
He’s never taken them on a vacation. They hardly leave the house. As soon as they walk in they are made to do chores that he’s neglected the entire week. He’s promised them a dog a few dozens times.
The only thing he will attend is the younger daughters soccer games. He told the oldest who started as a gymnast and is now in competitive cheer that gymnastics wasn’t a sport because it didn’t have a ball. He’s attended 1 gymnastic meet and 1 cheer event since I’ve been around. Cheer was bc of a football game 5 min away that was after it.
He constantly throws guilt in their face anytime they want to do anything.
As they have gotten older, they have seen how he is and don’t want to go over there anymore. They still do only because he will yell at them. He also bought their car and frequently threatens taking it back if they don’t do what he says.
For you, keep being a solid parent. They will see his true self more and more. At some point they may want to go to court and be done with it. In my state the judge will listen to a request from a kid once they are 14-15.
You are right, it’s a death sentence for the relationship but at a certain point it’s worth it possibly. My step daughters are just riding it out until they are 18.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [integrator] [ In reply to ]
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My wife has always maintained that the truth will win out when it comes to the kids and it won't require any action on her part. It's already happened with the 10yo and this weekend is the first we're seeing of it with the 8yo. Aside from hyperactivity and some quirks that come with that he's the easiest of the three, a middle child to the core, compliant and agreeable, sweet natured gentle giant, so it was interesting and a little surprising to see him taking a stand and advocating for himself. He actually said to my wife today after basketball practice something to the effect of "he's terrible I understand why you're not together anymore." It sucks to hear a kid say that about a parent but honestly, it's not her job to cover for him and it's a situation of his own making that is easily fixed. You just have to show up.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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When my wife (then girlfriend) and I were 19, we went to visit her "father" to have a meal and exchange Christmas gifts. My wife had called her father and made all of the arrangements for the get together. When we showed up at his house, at the arranged time, the porch light was not on. We knocked on the door and he answered, in his pajamas. He and his girlfriend were clearly in for the night and had completely forgotten that we were coming. We stayed, ordered pizza, and spend about 90 minutes at their house. My wife gave her "father" a Christmas gift. He hadn't bothered to get one for her. It was an uncomfortable evening.

Driving back to school afterwards, my wife, more resigned than upset, decided, "I have been the only one to put any effort into this relationship. I'm tired of it. I'm not calling him again. If he wants to talk to me, he can call." Again, we were 19. We are now 52 and have never spoken to him again. Honestly don't know if he is alive or dead. We have grown kids of our own now. He missed it all. No idea if he cares. It was no loss to me. I'm sure it hurt my wife to realize that her father was so uninterested in her, but she moved on. I learned that my wife has real convictions and a spine of steel.

Sphere, I'm sure that your step kids are already realizing what kind of guy their father is. I feel a little bad for him but he is making his own bed. Some people never grow up enough to realize how their actions affect everyone around them.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [just jack] [ In reply to ]
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The discovery process has started and my wife is being asked to submit a list of all medical diagnoses and prescription medications (she has none and takes none). Given the issues raised in the petition, none of which explicitly or implicitly question her competency as a parent, how is this relevant and why should she be required to disclose it?

I’m angry for her. It must feel like having every aspect of your life scrutinized and criticized when her only major mistake was staying with this asshole as long as she did. She hasn’t violated any aspect of their custody agreement ever and has gone above and beyond what is required of her to accommodate his requests, and now she’s effectively being required to prove she isn’t crazy or incompetent.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Feb 29, 24 5:49
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Just because the discovery requests ask for information does not mean your wife has to give it.

If the requests invade your wife’s privacy for harassing purposes, then get a protective order & seek sanctions. This is litigation— your wife needs to fight back. Get a lawyer, for heaven’s sake.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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She has a lawyer, actively working on the case. Same lawyer that settled her divorce. Surely he is aware of this request but hasn’t indicated that she isn’t required to comply.

He’s a successful lawyer and did her right in the divorce process. He also seems to hew closely to traditional Southern social norms and tells her thing like it will reflect poorly on her that she doesn’t attend church, or tithe, or if she comes off as too assertive. So he may think that it’s in her best interest to comply with that discovery request? I assume he knows his business and what does and doesn’t play well in court in this area.

If it’s unnecessary and harassing, which is what it appears to be, why wouldn’t her lawyer use that to his advantage as exemplary of his M.O. rather than pass it on to her as though it’s something she needs to do?

I said it’s bullshit and she shouldn’t provide her personal protected health information . He’s not being subjected to anything of that nature, to my knowledge, and surely her lawyer knows that.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Feb 29, 24 6:58
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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My impression is that the other spouse is absolutely not allowed to go on a fishing expedition through her medical information. They can request medical information that’s specifically pertinent to the case, but that’s it. I would definitely push back. Medical privacy is a pretty well established principle, and it doesn’t imply you’re hiding anything, I don’t think.

Other lawyers can weigh in if I’m getting that wrong.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Can you throw out an "Objection! Relevance?" call during discovery?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I’m on the other side of the country and I’m a different jurisdiction and I do not practice family law, but I see no reason to avoid stating objections and engaging in the meet and confer process.

Where I am, lawyers are required to meet and confer about everything before filing for a protective order or filing a motion to compel discovery. Both sides send letters back and forth hashing out their reasons for their position. If they fail to agree, they take it to the judge via a discovery motion.

The meet and confer process allows each side to give their reasons for wanting or objecting to the discovery. If the ex doesn’t have any good reason for asking for your wife’s own medical records, then it would be obvious after the meet and confer process.

Of course, the rules may be different. Maybe you live in a more conservative state. Maybe the judges like emotionally abusive exes who harass women and invade their privacy. Maybe that’s normal where you are. But that shit don’t fly in SoCal, my friend.

If your wife’s lawyer is not the right lawyer to protect to your wife’s legal interests, then you may need a different, more aggressive lawyer.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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If it were a competency dispute I can see how it would be relevant and even compulsory. There is no question whatsoever about competency in this matter.

Not only is he fishing, his layer is facilitating it and apparently her lawyer isn’t pushing back on it.

Every interaction with her lawyer costs money. Just Jack spoke to this issue; taking her to court when she never violated the settlement agreement, while he does repeatedly, then petitioning the court for petty grievances costs her time, money, and emotional energy. It’s harassment on top of harassment. Her only diagnosable condition would be anxiety which is largely a consequence of his treatment of her over the years. The irony of that discovery request is pretty fucking cruel.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
She has a lawyer, actively working on the case. Same lawyer that settled her divorce. Surely he is aware of this request but hasn’t indicated that she isn’t required to comply.

He’s a successful lawyer and did her right in the divorce process. He also seems to hew closely to traditional Southern social norms and tells her thing like it will reflect poorly on her that she doesn’t attend church, or tithe, or if she comes off as too assertive. So he may think that it’s in her best interest to comply with that discovery request? I assume he knows his business and what does and doesn’t play well in court in this area.

If it’s unnecessary and harassing, which is what it appears to be, why wouldn’t her lawyer use that to his advantage as exemplary of his M.O. rather than pass it on to her as though it’s something she needs to do?

I said it’s bullshit and she shouldn’t provide her personal protected health information . He’s not being subjected to anything of that nature, to my knowledge, and surely her lawyer knows that.

Did that go straight to her or come through her lawyer? I can see how medical and mental health issues could be relevant to custody arrangements. Of course there are limits.

OTOH - is there anything there that really is worth being mad about? Part of the challenge in divorce cases is taking the emotion out. No one knows how to push your buttons like a spouse. I guarantee you that none of you can piss my wife off as fast as I can. If you can manage to not react to that you will be ahead.

There are other lawyers. If she isn't getting what she needs from the one she has, and I'd not be happy being told by my own lawyer that it will reflect poorly on me that I don't tithe to the church, she may need one that fits better.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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So, spend more money she doesn’t have to haggle over a component of the case before spending money to settle the case. After settling the divorce and custody *agreement* to the tune of over $70k.

I think we just need to verify that it isn’t compulsory and put the financial burden on him to discover the nothing he will find.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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That seems ludicrous. I’m sorry.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
He also seems to hew closely to traditional Southern social norms and tells her thing like it will reflect poorly on her that she doesn’t attend church, or tithe, or if she comes off as too assertive. So he may think that it’s in her best interest to comply with that discovery request? I assume he knows his business and what does and doesn’t play well in court in this area.

This is terrifying.

------------------------------
The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
So, spend more money she doesn’t have to haggle over a component of the case before spending money to settle the case. After settling the divorce and custody *agreement* to the tune of over $70k.

I think we just need to verify that it isn’t compulsory and put the financial burden on him to discover the nothing he will find.

The meet and confer process isn’t really a waste of time when you consider that it creates the rough draft for a protective order or motion to compel.

But— that’s a side discussion.

I think you need to communicate clearly with your lawyer.

When you say the bolded part above, it sounds like you’re avoiding talking to your lawyer about the issue. Can you send a one-line email to your own lawyer saying that she won’t provide the information because it is harassing, invades privacy, and not relevant to the issues in the case? You’ll be charged for your lawyer’s review of the letter & response. You can assess your lawyer’s response to see what you want to do next. It seems like the shortest & most direct way to tell your lawyer how you feel about the request.

Alternatively, if you write in the response itself that she won’t provide the information, your lawyer will review it & sign off on the responses. He won’t sign off on responses that he thinks are in violation of your state’s discovery rules, will he? You can even ask your lawyer to confirm he will do that when you email the responses back.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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The request came through her lawyer’s paralegal. Wife says in the past she received things through his office that he hadn’t read through yet and that in the past he has told her to ignore parts of his lawyer’s discovery requests.

She just read through the full discovery with me and it’s special. Questions like “how much money do you think my client makes” (he is the petitioner, she is not asking for anything) and “in what circumstances do you refer to my client by his proper name?”

The list is over a dozen items long. Colossal waste of time.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BigDig] [ In reply to ]
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BigDig wrote:
sphere wrote:
He also seems to hew closely to traditional Southern social norms and tells her thing like it will reflect poorly on her that she doesn’t attend church, or tithe, or if she comes off as too assertive. So he may think that it’s in her best interest to comply with that discovery request? I assume he knows his business and what does and doesn’t play well in court in this area.

This is terrifying.

Yeah, I would have changed lawyers immediately.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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He gets results, top rated in the area. If this is what he’s seen in court it doesn’t really matter how we feel about it, right?

I fundamentally disagree that it has a place in family court but it ultimately doesn’t matter.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
The request came through her lawyer’s paralegal. Wife says in the past she received things through his office that he hadn’t read through yet and that in the past he has told her to ignore parts of his lawyer’s discovery requests.

She just read through the full discovery with me and it’s special. Questions like “how much money do you think my client makes” (he is the petitioner, she is not asking for anything) and “in what circumstances do you refer to my client by his proper name?”

The list is over a dozen items long. Colossal waste of time.

That's MISTER Dipshit to you.

The requests seem designed to get under her skin. Her lawyer should review that before sending it along. Pretty much his reason to be.

Seems like they are trying get her to admit to disparaging him.

I don't have a good answer for you. In this very short description I would be frustrated with her lawyer. But it is hard to tell. I get why you are mad. But getting you and your wife mad is his goal.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe to some degree. Mostly it’s a temper tantrum. He’s sideways that she has the authority to tell him no and he wants to punish her for it. Everything in their former life together was on his terms and now he’s being kept in check and he can’t stand it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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More time in the summer he will probably get. One parent drop off, other parent return is common

If he wants to miss his kids games, etc and it’s not his scheduled time with the kids, he doesn’t have to and that’s for him to live with his decisions.

The rest of the stuff the court won’t care about. That’s just parents bitching.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
More time in the summer he will probably get. One parent drop off, other parent return is common

If he wants to miss his kids games, etc and it’s not his scheduled time with the kids, he doesn’t have to and that’s for him to live with his decisions.

The rest of the stuff the court won’t care about. That’s just parents bitching.

That’s my uneducated guess as well. As to the first paragraph I suppose it will follow the logic of the second. Exception being the drive. Seems unfair to make mom spend one of her two free days driving six hours when it was his decision alone to move out of state and she does all of the kid related driving otherwise. Same for court fees. They agreed, she complied, now he wants more. I would think absent delinquency that burden should fall on the parent who changes their mind about what they want.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
If it were a competency dispute I can see how it would be relevant and even compulsory. There is no question whatsoever about competency in this matter.

Not only is he fishing, his layer is facilitating it and apparently her lawyer isn’t pushing back on it.

Every interaction with her lawyer costs money. Just Jack spoke to this issue; taking her to court when she never violated the settlement agreement, while he does repeatedly, then petitioning the court for petty grievances costs her time, money, and emotional energy. It’s harassment on top of harassment. Her only diagnosable condition would be anxiety which is largely a consequence of his treatment of her over the years. The irony of that discovery request is pretty fucking cruel.

The health of the parties is usually a factor in custody, but, you have to have a very good reason to start a fishing expedition. A few tactics that worked from my marathon:
- nothing stops a request for medical information faster than a counter request for the same thing. Especially when the other person is a hypochondriac and for decades has always been on some cocktail of meds. Basically, if you ask for some invasive discovery, be prepared for the judge to order you to provide the same thing
- how long between judges orders can a party re-file a custody petition in your state? In my state, you have to show a significant change in circumstance from the previous order to refile within 2 years.
- Her lawyer needs to get more aggressive to cut the nonsense.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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We submitted everything asked for in discovery, and sent a discovery list in response, to include the details of his GOMOR conviction in the Army for serial infidelity, bullying and harassment.

Her lawyer just informed her that they wish to conduct a deposition. She did not have sit for one during the settlement and divorce proceeding so we're wondering if that's necessary as part of the discovery process. She hasn't heard back from her lawyer yet. Sitting in the same room with him puts her in a tailspin so the thought of having to do that outside of a court room setting is not sitting well with her right now.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
We submitted everything asked for in discovery, and sent a discovery list in response, to include the details of his GOMOR conviction in the Army for serial infidelity, bullying and harassment.

Her lawyer just informed her that they wish to conduct a deposition. She did not have sit for one during the settlement and divorce proceeding so we're wondering if that's necessary as part of the discovery process. She hasn't heard back from her lawyer yet. Sitting in the same room with him puts her in a tailspin so the thought of having to do that outside of a court room setting is not sitting well with her right now.

Having read through everything on here, it doesn't sound like your wife's lawyer is fighting too much. It sounds like he thinks, if he says no, it will be harder on your wife, so just give them everything they want. I understand she hasn't heard back from her lawyer yet, but from the rest of the thread, I'll be shocked if he doesn't just say, sit for the deposition.

I have never been through a divorce or personally dealt with one from a family member or friend, so I don't understand the process at all. I wish your family the best of luck.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Barks&Purrs wrote:
Just because the discovery requests ask for information does not mean your wife has to give it.

If the requests invade your wife’s privacy for harassing purposes, then get a protective order & seek sanctions. This is litigation— your wife needs to fight back. Get a lawyer, for heaven’s sake.

In recent developments, my wife complied with discovery and submitted her documentation (this was an exhausting and to put it very mildly, frustrating process) orderly and on time. We are now two days past his deadline for his discovery submission and he's produced nothing, to include paystubs, evidence of her noncompliance with the settlement agreement, etc. Her lawyer now says that the discovery on his end is essential for various issues being addressed and so they need to pursue an Order to Compel.

This will of course require more time and money at my wife's expense, in a case that she didn't bring about a settlement agreement she is in 100% compliance with.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Barks&Purrs wrote:
Just because the discovery requests ask for information does not mean your wife has to give it.

If the requests invade your wife’s privacy for harassing purposes, then get a protective order & seek sanctions. This is litigation— your wife needs to fight back. Get a lawyer, for heaven’s sake.

In recent developments, my wife complied with discovery and submitted her documentation (this was an exhausting and to put it very mildly, frustrating process) orderly and on time. We are now two days past his deadline for his discovery submission and he's produced nothing, to include paystubs, evidence of her noncompliance with the settlement agreement, etc. Her lawyer now says that the discovery on his end is essential for various issues being addressed and so they need to pursue an Order to Compel.

This will of course require more time and money at my wife's expense, in a case that she didn't bring about a settlement agreement she is in 100% compliance with.

The motion to compel will likely include a request for sanctions in the amount of attorneys’ fees for preparation of the motion & the attorney’s time spent at the hearing. If your wife’s attorney has shown a good faith effort to meet & confer about the non response/ insufficient response, then your wife’s request for sanctions seems reasonable.

An idea to float might be a discovery referee that the court grants authority to resolve these disputes. That person should be a family law mediator w/ experience working in acrimonious / abuse situations. That discovery referee can take over some of the burden of dealing with the ex. The discovery referee can be an added layer of insulation from stress associated with him.

A creative offer to the judge re: discovery referee to resolve discovery disputes to shows a spirit of cooperation and willingness to resolve the disputes without relying on the court & court resources. Even if the request is not agreed-to by the other side & the judge doesn’t grant it, the effort might be favorable to your wife because the judge will see she’s trying.

This is not legal advice, obviously. As you know, I recently went through a divorce. I know it’s very challenging. Staying committed to reasonableness and cooperation is difficult when other people aren’t reasonable or cooperative.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Barks&Purrs wrote:
sphere wrote:
Barks&Purrs wrote:
Just because the discovery requests ask for information does not mean your wife has to give it.

If the requests invade your wife’s privacy for harassing purposes, then get a protective order & seek sanctions. This is litigation— your wife needs to fight back. Get a lawyer, for heaven’s sake.


In recent developments, my wife complied with discovery and submitted her documentation (this was an exhausting and to put it very mildly, frustrating process) orderly and on time. We are now two days past his deadline for his discovery submission and he's produced nothing, to include paystubs, evidence of her noncompliance with the settlement agreement, etc. Her lawyer now says that the discovery on his end is essential for various issues being addressed and so they need to pursue an Order to Compel.

This will of course require more time and money at my wife's expense, in a case that she didn't bring about a settlement agreement she is in 100% compliance with.


The motion to compel will likely include a request for sanctions in the amount of attorneys’ fees for preparation of the motion & the attorney’s time spent at the hearing. If your wife’s attorney has shown a good faith effort to meet & confer about the non response/ insufficient response, then your wife’s request for sanctions seems reasonable.

An idea to float might be a discovery referee that the court grants authority to resolve these disputes. That person should be a family law mediator w/ experience working in acrimonious / abuse situations. That discovery referee can take over some of the burden of dealing with the ex. The discovery referee can be an added layer of insulation from stress associated with him.

A creative offer to the judge re: discovery referee to resolve discovery disputes to shows a spirit of cooperation and willingness to resolve the disputes without relying on the court & court resources. Even if the request is not agreed-to by the other side & the judge doesn’t grant it, the effort might be favorable to your wife because the judge will see she’s trying.

This is not legal advice, obviously. As you know, I recently went through a divorce. I know it’s very challenging. Staying committed to reasonableness and cooperation is difficult when other people aren’t reasonable or cooperative.

It’s nice to see that the ex’s main interest is taking $100 bills and lighting them on fire.

-sounds like your wife is doing everything right. Stay the course
- he lawyer needs to get off his rear to stop the nonsense.
- what happened with the deposition? This would seem unnecessary other than driving up costs. Interrogatories would be much more efficient.
- if discovery isn’t produced by the filing party, I would motion to dismiss the case on the fact they have not provided any discovery or any information showing a change in circumstance that would require a change in the custody arrangement,
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Until the kids turn 18, the court retains jurisdiction to make rulings, so I don’t think dismissal is an option. I think taking a really long view is the best course.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Barks&Purrs wrote:
Until the kids turn 18, the court retains jurisdiction to make rulings, so I don’t think dismissal is an option. I think taking a really long view is the best course.

Yes, Court retains jurisdiction of the kids until 18, however, individual filings can be dismissed by the court for various reasons during that time if they don’t have merit.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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BBB1975 wrote:
Barks&Purrs wrote:
Until the kids turn 18, the court retains jurisdiction to make rulings, so I don’t think dismissal is an option. I think taking a really long view is the best course.

Yes, Court retains jurisdiction of the kids until 18, however, individual filings can be dismissed by the court for various reasons during that time if they don’t have merit.

Ah. In my neck of the woods “dismissal” is used for entire actions whereas “denial” is used for motions. This is why talking about legal things is best left to people who are familiar with the local terms & rules. I am not qualified to speak on these subjects.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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It’s nice to see that the ex’s main interest is taking $100 bills and lighting them on fire.

That's about how it feels. He's 0-for everything in court thus far and doesn't seem to have switched up his strategy. But we still have to show up and pay for the privilege.

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-sounds like your wife is doing everything right. Stay the course

I think so. We've been scrupulous in always staying within the lines and documenting everything.
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- he lawyer needs to get off his rear to stop the nonsense.

Whose lawyer?
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- what happened with the deposition? This would seem unnecessary other than driving up costs. Interrogatories would be much more efficient.

It's scheduled for later this month. Her lawyer hasn't floated any alternative ideas. In my layman's view a mediator could easily have handled these complaints.
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- if discovery isn’t produced by the filing party, I would motion to dismiss the case on the fact they have not provided any discovery or any information showing a change in circumstance that would require a change in the custody arrangement,

I think at this point she's already sunk considerable cost in prepping for the case, and in response is asking for the child support to be recalculated. Her initial child support factored in spousal support, which fell off after six months, in addition to their 3rd child reaching school age while he currently pays $0 toward that cost (the kids attend a private school, public schools in the area are shit). He's retired LT. COL. and now working full time for a Big Four accounting firm, so I suspect there will be an upward adjustment in his child support obligation. It's worth following it through at this point, I think.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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I would motion to dismiss the case on the fact they have not provided any discovery or any information showing a change in circumstance that would require a change in the custody arrangement,

If this is how it could be handled, I'm surprised her lawyer didn't propose this. Absolutely nothing has changed except for what her ex wants, after agreeing to the existing settlement. She has met her obligations 100% and gone above and beyond to expand his access to the kids.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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She received a response from his lawyer today detailing his allegations and what he is asking of the court.

He is asking for physical custody for the entire summer, from the day after school lets out until the day before it resumes, giving mom visitation every other weekend.

He's throwing absolutely everything he can at her to smear her as a bad mother, and me as contributing. Things like poor dental health (oldest needed tooth extractions for crowding, the younger two have had one cavity between them), poor diets (he cited noticing the middle child making a Nutella sandwich during a facetime session and having had "breakfast for dinner" with cereal and muffins, which we do on rare busy night occasion), and generally painting her as a terrible human being and mother. He had set up his phone in the car to video tape the kids talking about being hungry for dinner when he picked them up at 5pm one Friday, after getting home from school at 4, snacking and playing outside. He offered this as evidence--presumably with video--of her being a neglectful mother and punishing them with hunger to make their father pay for dinner.

He is asking the court to mandate that she always and only refer to him as Dad in her home and that they never use any iteration of the word in reference to me---all the while having his kids call his wife "Mama A**y"

This is so far from normal I can't even wrap my head around it. I cannot imagine taking my kids away from their mother for three months for any reason whatsoever, especially if it was my own fuckery that led to divorce and my choice to move nearly 3 hours away.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like he’s trying to play this game as dirty as possible, so I hope her lawyer is prepared to fight back hard.

Very sad for the kids.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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I somewhat expected that, but not quite to the degree he's taking it. The facts are pretty well stacked on her side of the ledger so there isn't much he has to work with. And I have to think citing examples like that reveals how weak and petty his complaints are. I would guess the strategy is ask for everything and settle for a few extra weeks in the summer. But it just shows the total lack of respect he has for her and the incredibly hard job she has, and does exceptionally well, in raising the kids.

They would be beside themselves if they had to leave home for three months. I just can't imagine putting that on my children.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I somewhat expected that, but not quite to the degree he's taking it. The facts are pretty well stacked on her side of the ledger so there isn't much he has to work with. And I have to think citing examples like that reveals how weak and petty his complaints are. I would guess the strategy is ask for everything and settle for a few extra weeks in the summer. But it just shows the total lack of respect he has for her and the incredibly hard job she has, and does exceptionally well, in raising the kids.

They would be beside themselves if they had to leave home for three months. I just can't imagine putting that on my children.

Based on your telling, I really hope your wife wins. My concern is her lawyer letting this shit go on so long. I would have to believe a judge would look at this and tell him to fuck off and act like a father. But, it is family court, so you never know.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Deposition is this Friday afternoon. I don't know how that all works but I would think she'll have an opportunity to add context to some claims and correct the record factually on others? It's hard to imagine a lawyer bringing what he's bringing before a judge and expecting it to work in his favor. But he's done it before, and lost bigly for it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
She received a response from his lawyer today detailing his allegations and what he is asking of the court.

He is asking for physical custody for the entire summer, from the day after school lets out until the day before it resumes, giving mom visitation every other weekend.

He's throwing absolutely everything he can at her to smear her as a bad mother, and me as contributing. Things like poor dental health (oldest needed tooth extractions for crowding, the younger two have had one cavity between them), poor diets (he cited noticing the middle child making a Nutella sandwich during a facetime session and having had "breakfast for dinner" with cereal and muffins, which we do on rare busy night occasion), and generally painting her as a terrible human being and mother. He had set up his phone in the car to video tape the kids talking about being hungry for dinner when he picked them up at 5pm one Friday, after getting home from school at 4, snacking and playing outside. He offered this as evidence--presumably with video--of her being a neglectful mother and punishing them with hunger to make their father pay for dinner.

He is asking the court to mandate that she always and only refer to him as Dad in her home and that they never use any iteration of the word in reference to me---all the while having his kids call his wife "Mama A**y"

This is so far from normal I can't even wrap my head around it. I cannot imagine taking my kids away from their mother for three months for any reason whatsoever, especially if it was my own fuckery that led to divorce and my choice to move nearly 3 hours away.


The summer request is pretty reasonable and is a popular summer schedule for non custodial parents. As an outside observer, there’s a good chance this change will happen. You may want to counter offer because Sphere and Co would also like to take a family vacation during the summer. Also, you’ll need a few days to get ready for school to start.

For example, after my ex moved, the kids were with me the whole summer, 1 weekend per month with her, and two 7 consecutive day periods with her. Usually my ex rolled the monthly weekend into her 7 day periods. Most years she used the second week for the week before school started. This worked well. Maybe for your offer, do every other weekend, and 3 weeks during the summer.

Plus, this is a trap that the other lawyer set. If your wife is ok with the kids seeing dad just every other weekend during the school year, she should have no problem with her seeing the kids every other weekend during the summer. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. My judge did this to my ex when she suggested that I be an every other weekend dad when she moved with the kids out of state. He told her he assumed she would have no issues with seeing the kids every other weekend. Her head nearly exploded.

- have the records for the twice yearly teeth cleanings. None of you including the judge are dentists. The ex would have to haul the dentist into court to testify that your wife promotes poor dental hygiene. Which, someone will have to pay for.
- if he’s so concerned about poor diets, he needs to call CPS. Remember, the judge probably has half a dozen cases on his docket dealing with true neglect. Heck, half of the judge’s cases probably involve an accusation that one parent only feeds the kids frozen McNuggets.
- I think the video tape will blow up in his face like a hand grenade. All your wife has to say “ yes your Honor, I just give the kids a small snack after school because I didn’t want to spoil their family dinner with their father.” Then the judge will ask the ex why the F did he create a hostage tape with the kids?
- the dad stuff is unenforceable. To really frick with him, tell the court he should only refer to Sphere as Batman

My fear for you is with his relatively vague accusations, the judge is going to ask for a custody evaluation. More money, more $100 bills lit on fire. Reality is, with him 3 hours away, other than the summer schedule, there isn’t much that can change.
Last edited by: BBB1975: Apr 17, 24 16:16
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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If your wife is ok with the kids seeing dad just every other weekend during the school year, she should have no problem with her seeing the kids every other weekend during the summer. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.


I'm not concerned with the goose or the gander. I'm concerned for the goslings. Their well-being matters above all.

Their father was absent even when he was home. He had no hand in any of the business of raising the kids. He had no true relationship with any of them, and none whatsoever with the youngest, whom he didn't see for the first 18 months of his life. They have been raised exclusively by their mother for the entirety of their lives, and me, for the last four years. They are healthy, happy, well adjusted kids and love their life at home on the farm. They resent missing events on "his" weekend and all, without exception, have said they would rather not go to his house if given the choice. He hasn't asked them how they would feel about spending more time there, because he doesn't care. And now he says he wants them for three months.

I suspect part of the motivation is to boost his custody time above 90 days/yr so that the child support obligation falls by nearly half. In VA that is the cutoff, and it is steep.

Given that he owns a home in town and uses it when he feels like it, and that she has offered more time with them beyond the constraints of the settlement agreement, I really don't see how uprooting them for months at a time from the only home they know and the only parent who's fully invested in them is good for them or a reasonable accommodation given that the prior arrangement is what he had requested in the first place. Not to mention that their mother works part time to be home with the kids more, and he is and will be working full time, so they'll be home with his wife for the majority of the summer if that were to happen.

I'll admit my bias here, but I'm also a divorced dad in a similar custody arrangement and I always put my kids needs above my preferences. Always.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 17, 24 17:01
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Seems like you provided some good information.

Regarding what one spouse seems reasonable with and goose/gander I feel like it should matter who put them in that situation.

For instance, you said that if Sphere’s wife is Ok with the dad only seeing them EOW during the year then she should be able to swallow the same pill. But what if she’s not ok with that? He’s the one that moved three hours away. What if the mother actually wanted the dad in their life more but HIS personal decisions just don’t allow for that because of what it does to the kid’s lives.

I still believe that once you enter the realm of children what you want becomes less important and it’s more about creating the best and safest environment for them. Wanna see your kids more? Great, put yourself in a position to do so and don’t complain if you make really bad choices (like moving three hours away when you have a job and house in the same town as them). Especially if your choices then impact the children so much as so you are upending their basic routines and lives and as this guy seems to do, interrupt their fun and appropriate activities.

They get one chance to be kids and if one parent seems intent on screwing that up then I don’t think said parent also gets their day in court so to speak.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry you guys are going through it again.

That 90 day law seems ridiculous. I wonder the rationale behind it. You’re with your kids for just around 25% of the year.

Is any of this really about doing what’s right for the kids ?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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you said that if Sphere’s wife is Ok with the dad only seeing them EOW during the year then she should be able to swallow the same pill. But what if she’s not ok with that? He’s the one that moved three hours away. What if the mother actually wanted the dad in their life more but HIS personal decisions just don’t allow for that because of what it does to the kid’s lives.

He didn't spend time with them when they were married. She asked him to, he did his own thing and left all of the child rearing duties to her. She put her career on permanent hold to raise his kids. She was faithful and honest, he's a habitual liar and unfaithful for the entirety of their relationship, from engagement through separation. Fifteen established affairs. He moved 2.5h away from their home, where the kids' grandparents and aunt and uncle and cousins live to live the playboy life in DC. They are in school and sports and activities in their home town, as kids living a normal life tend to do. He has asked for more time and she's offered, provided that he support their activities and sports locally, where he also owns a home 2 miles from ours. He refuses. Every weekend with him is spent at his rental home 2.5h away. So she told him she will not sign over the rights to him for the time she's offered, extending beyond what he already requested and signed off on previously, if he will not make accommodations for their activities locally, so here we are.

The situation is entirely of his own making, and yet he's never apologized or shown contrition or appreciation for what she's done for him and the kids. He blames her for the divorce and resents that she maintains control over the majority of their time and that he can't dictate to her how things shall be anymore. So no, I'm not seeing a goose-gander dynamic here. This is a mess he created and the kids' best interest needs to come first. Custody assignment should follow that guidepost IMO.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Sorry you guys are going through it again.

That 90 day law seems ridiculous. I wonder the rationale behind it. You’re with your kids for just around 25% of the year.

Is any of this really about doing what’s right for the kids ?

Most states have some sort of support escalator once you hit a certain number of overnights with the kids. 90 over nights is less than every other weekend. In reality, it’s not a lot of contact. My state uses a formula based on income, time share, and who pays what towards expenses like medical and private school. Let’s say the support formula says the kid expenses are $2000 per month. If mom and dad made the same amount, and the kids split time equally, there would be no transfer payments. If one parent had no overnights, the non custodial parent would probably be sending about $1000 to the other parent.

In my case, when the timeshare was 50/50, I still sent my ex about $1000 per month since my income was so much higher. I also paid medical, as well as daycare.

When she moved out of state, and was found in contempt for moving, but was awarded with primary residency, my overnights dropped to about 140, however, the cutoff for the escalator was 135 over nights. So, my support to her didn’t go up. My expenses went down very marginally as I wasn’t like I was going to downsize to a smaller house, car, etc.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Seems like you provided some good information.

Regarding what one spouse seems reasonable with and goose/gander I feel like it should matter who put them in that situation.

For instance, you said that if Sphere’s wife is Ok with the dad only seeing them EOW during the year then she should be able to swallow the same pill. But what if she’s not ok with that? He’s the one that moved three hours away. What if the mother actually wanted the dad in their life more but HIS personal decisions just don’t allow for that because of what it does to the kid’s lives.

I still believe that once you enter the realm of children what you want becomes less important and it’s more about creating the best and safest environment for them. Wanna see your kids more? Great, put yourself in a position to do so and don’t complain if you make really bad choices (like moving three hours away when you have a job and house in the same town as them). Especially if your choices then impact the children so much as so you are upending their basic routines and lives and as this guy seems to do, interrupt their fun and appropriate activities.

They get one chance to be kids and if one parent seems intent on screwing that up then I don’t think said parent also gets their day in court so to speak.

I went through an all out custody war for ten years that started out as 50/50 shared for 4 years, 60/40 split in mom’s favor for about 6 and ended up with me having sole legal custody with my ex only having supervised visitation 10 years later. We had 5 full blown custody hearings in the time period, I only had a lawyer for 1, so I was pro-se for 4/5 including the one where I was awarded sole legal. I wish I didn’t have practical knowledge of this subject.

Family Court judges see Sphere’s story every day every hour in their courtroom. What makes sense to you and I, they often see things different in ways that make you shake your head. His wife’s judge most likely won’t care about the past unless it is something major like documented physical violence directed at the kids.

Based on my experience with my judges, the custodial parent trying to dictate what a non custodial parent does on their time with the kids is a very hard argument for the custodial parent to make and not look like an a@$hole from a judge’s perspective. Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.


I have to wonder how often that is used as a "trick" as opposed to being construed that way by the noncustodial parent.

In our case, her ex said she shall not sign them up for any activities that fall on "his" weekend, when she mentioned that the kids were interested in playing soccer, volleyball, and basketball. She informed him that she will sign them up, they can make every practice and every game that falls on "her" weekend, and that whether he takes them to their games, or allows them to stay home with us on those weekends so they can attend, will be up to him. She never said that they cannot go with him on those weekends or that he must take them, only that they want to participate and it's his decision. She told the kids it will be up to their father if they go to the games on that weekend and stay at his home in the area, or if he has other plans for them. That has been well documented in the emails.

If a judge is inclined to see that as a trick, so be it.

How would it look if it were not a trick but mom understands that sports and activities are healthy for kids and wants them to participate however possible, but defers to the other parent on his weekends? Pretty much the same, I would imagine.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 18, 24 10:43
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.


I have to wonder how often that is used as a "trick" as opposed to being construed that way by the noncustodial parent.

In our case, her ex said she shall not sign them up for any activities that fall on "his" weekend, when she mentioned that the kids were interested in playing soccer, volleyball, and basketball. She informed him that she will sign them up, they can make every practice and every game that falls on "her" weekend, and that whether he takes them to their games, or allows them to stay home with us on those weekends so they can attend, will be up to him. She never said that they cannot go with him on those weekends or that he must take them, only that they want to participate and it's his decision. She told the kids it will be up to their father if they go to the games on that weekend and stay at his home in the area, or if he has other plans for them. That has been well documented in the emails.

If a judge is inclined to see that as a trick, so be it.

How would it look if it were not a trick but mom understands that sports and activities are healthy for kids and wants them to participate however possible, but defers to the other parent on his weekends? Pretty much the same, I would imagine.

Her ex is right and most courts will agree with him that your wife shouldn’t be scheduling stuff on his parenting time. The courts tend to view NCP parenting time as sacred.

To answer your question, I would view it as slightly manipulative. I don’t think you wife is malicious, but, it puts her ex in a situation where he is viewed as the bad guy to the kids if he doesn’t go along with what their mother wants.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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BBB1975 wrote:
sphere wrote:
Quote:
Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.


I have to wonder how often that is used as a "trick" as opposed to being construed that way by the noncustodial parent.

In our case, her ex said she shall not sign them up for any activities that fall on "his" weekend, when she mentioned that the kids were interested in playing soccer, volleyball, and basketball. She informed him that she will sign them up, they can make every practice and every game that falls on "her" weekend, and that whether he takes them to their games, or allows them to stay home with us on those weekends so they can attend, will be up to him. She never said that they cannot go with him on those weekends or that he must take them, only that they want to participate and it's his decision. She told the kids it will be up to their father if they go to the games on that weekend and stay at his home in the area, or if he has other plans for them. That has been well documented in the emails.

If a judge is inclined to see that as a trick, so be it.

How would it look if it were not a trick but mom understands that sports and activities are healthy for kids and wants them to participate however possible, but defers to the other parent on his weekends? Pretty much the same, I would imagine.


Her ex is right and most courts will agree with him that your wife shouldn’t be scheduling stuff on his parenting time. The courts tend to view NCP parenting time as sacred.

To answer your question, I would view it as slightly manipulative. I don’t think you wife is malicious, but, it puts her ex in a situation where he is viewed as the bad guy to the kids if he doesn’t go along with what their mother wants.


I understand that perspective. But I do think it's a warped reality when compared with how kids in intact nuclear families live, and for me, that's the standard of how child issues should be viewed. It presupposes that children of divorced parents should not, by default, participate in these events out of consideration for one parent or the other, and that the parent who has physical custody should not be doing for their children what non-divorced parents do for theirs.

If the noncustodial parent chooses to live apart from the kids, and chooses to spend their time with them at a location away from their designated home, then the default should be the understanding that they will participate in sports and activities near their home where they live with the parent who's been awarded physical custody. Again, yes, that is my opinion, but it's based in how children are raised under normal circumstances and a family court should, ideally, act in the interest of the children to maintain that sense of normalcy. As Yeeper reiterated, if the noncustodial parent wants to live a different lifestyle in a different location away from the children, it should come at a his cost, not theirs. If it makes them look or feel bad for saying no to the kids, that's on him. As it is on me if I took that approach with my own sons and their mother who has primary physical custody. I own it in the rare occasion it happens.

And certainly, the mother who's carrying the heavy load should not be default viewed as a manipulator for trying to preserve that normalcy for her children.

How many times and in how many ways should we punish single moms trying to do right by their kids.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 18, 24 19:26
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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BBB1975 wrote:
sphere wrote:
Quote:
Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.


I have to wonder how often that is used as a "trick" as opposed to being construed that way by the noncustodial parent.

In our case, her ex said she shall not sign them up for any activities that fall on "his" weekend, when she mentioned that the kids were interested in playing soccer, volleyball, and basketball. She informed him that she will sign them up, they can make every practice and every game that falls on "her" weekend, and that whether he takes them to their games, or allows them to stay home with us on those weekends so they can attend, will be up to him. She never said that they cannot go with him on those weekends or that he must take them, only that they want to participate and it's his decision. She told the kids it will be up to their father if they go to the games on that weekend and stay at his home in the area, or if he has other plans for them. That has been well documented in the emails.

If a judge is inclined to see that as a trick, so be it.

How would it look if it were not a trick but mom understands that sports and activities are healthy for kids and wants them to participate however possible, but defers to the other parent on his weekends? Pretty much the same, I would imagine.


Her ex is right and most courts will agree with him that your wife shouldn’t be scheduling stuff on his parenting time. The courts tend to view NCP parenting time as sacred.

To answer your question, I would view it as slightly manipulative. I don’t think you wife is malicious, but, it puts her ex in a situation where he is viewed as the bad guy to the kids if he doesn’t go along with what their mother wants.

I have a hard time imagining being able to let the kids do any sports if you’re only allowed to sign them up for things that would never fall on the other parent’s occasional custodial weekend. If the courts view that as the standard, then the courts are wrong.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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Last point and I'll let this dead horse rest peacefully.

Objectively, sports are good for kids. We should encourage and facilitate it as parents, as a rule. So when the kids ask their mom if they could play sports and the father says he doesn't want activities scheduled on his weekend, she's left with one of two choices: one, sign them up, support their practices and games on her weekend, and ask the father if he will either take them or allow them to stay home (and never insist that he/they do), or two, tell the kids "sorry, your father does not want you to play because it will interfere with his time with you." Because in reality, those conversations happen and kids want to know why they can't do what their friends are doing.

Of those two options, it would seem to me that kids would harbor more resentment about playing no sports whatsoever than only missing half of their games. So again, I don't see how that should be interpreted as manipulative by the mom when pinning the blame on the father for missing out on everything is the alternative option. Instead, she gives them what is within her power to give, and leaves the rest up to him to decide on.

Sometimes the noncustodial parent is, in reality, the "bad guy" who says no when he could and should say yes, and I don't think it's the court's job to protect him from the predictable consequences of being a selfish parent.

It's also worth remembering that the custodial parent does 90%+ of the work of child rearing, and value their sparse free time, so when they give their weekends over to supporting the kids' activities instead of taking time for themselves, again, it doesn't really lend credibility to the idea that mom is being selfish or manipulative.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 18, 24 20:13
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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I think the video tape will blow up in his face like a hand grenade.


Apparently they did not submit the video. I am assuming his lawyer saw that as highly problematic since he doesn't seem to recognize the inappropriateness of it all.

They have submitted an audio recording, taken by her ex and his new wife, without her daughter's knowledge, that reveals her daughter calling her dad on mom's emergency use phone (she bought it to send with the kids when the go on sleepovers or other circumstances when it would be helpful), and admitting that she was sneaking the phone in her room to call, while she had the land line and ipad available to her. Both he and his wife were told at least twice previously that it is not the child's phone (she was 9 at the time), it is not to be used without her consent and it is not to be used for any communication outside of those conditions I explained above. Their response when she admitted to them that she was breaking the rule and using her mom's phone, which she snuck out of our bedroom while we were outside, was that it's ok, don't worry about it. Together they proceeded to teach her how to go into her mom's phone and unblock the numbers that the daughter had stored in there without mom's permission, and another number they didn’t recognize. They walked her through the process then had her FaceTime them and told them how excited they were that she could facetime them now--which they always could because she has an Ipad with facetime set up for their communications and used it frequently.

Later in the day mom noticed the phone was missing and saw that she had taken it without permission, made changes, and made phone calls, watched youtube etc. Mom emailed her father that evening and explained, for the third time at least, that it is not the daughter's phone, it his her personal property and not to be used by the kids without permission, and that they have two ipads with facetime and a landline that the kids can call on and vice versa.

They submitted this recording as evidence that, in their view, mom is blocking communications with them despite her buying two ipad minis and installing a landline specifically for him, all at her expense and without being asked. If you haven't read that far back, he is blocked from her phone for constant harassment and was convicted in military court (GOMOR) for that and other behavior.

Imagine secretly recording your kids conversation, ignoring the fact that she was explicitly breaking mom's rule and stealing her phone, then you and your wife coaching her to dig through mom's phone and making changes to it, and submitting it to the court as evidence in your favor. These are the kinds of people we're dealing with.

The law says one party consent is legal in VA but not for use in court. I don't know how that applies to minors or that party's children in a divorce situation, but I would like to think we shouldn't have to worry about conversations taking place under our roof being covertly recorded. She will be asking her lawyer about that on Monday before Friday's deposition.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 19, 24 8:41
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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I think the video tape will blow up in his face like a hand grenade.


Apparently they did not submit the video. I am assuming his lawyer saw that as highly problematic since he doesn't seem to recognize the inappropriateness of it all.

They have submitted an audio recording, taken by her ex and his new wife, without her daughter's knowledge, that reveals her daughter calling her dad on mom's emergency use phone (she bought it to send with the kids when the go on sleepovers or other circumstances when it would be helpful), and admitting that she was sneaking the phone in her room to call, while she had the land line and ipad available to her. Both he and his wife were told at least twice previously that it is not the child's phone (she was 9 at the time), it is not to be used without her consent and it is not to be used for any communication outside of those conditions I explained above. Their response when she admitted to them that she was breaking the rule and using her mom's phone, which she snuck out of our bedroom while we were outside, was that it's ok, don't worry about it. Together they proceeded to teach her how to go into her mom's phone and unblock the numbers that the daughter had stored in there without mom's permission, and another number they didn’t recognize. They walked her through the process then had her FaceTime them and told them how excited they were that she could facetime them now--which they always could because she has an Ipad with facetime set up for their communications and used it frequently.

Later in the day mom noticed the phone was missing and saw that she had taken it without permission, made changes, and made phone calls, watched youtube etc. Mom emailed her father that evening and explained, for the third time at least, that it is not the daughter's phone, it his her personal property and not to be used by the kids without permission, and that they have two ipads with facetime and a landline that the kids can call on and vice versa.

They submitted this recording as evidence that, in their view, mom is blocking communications with them despite her buying two ipad minis and installing a landline specifically for him, all at her expense and without being asked. If you haven't read that far back, he is blocked from her phone for constant harassment and was convicted in military court (GOMOR) for that and other behavior.

Imagine secretly recording your kids conversation, ignoring the fact that she was explicitly breaking mom's rule and stealing her phone, then you and your wife coaching her to dig through mom's phone and making changes to it, and submitting it to the court as evidence in your favor. These are the kinds of people we're dealing with.

The law says one party consent is legal in VA but not for use in court. I don't know how that applies to minors or that party's children in a divorce situation, but I would like to think we shouldn't have to worry about conversations taking place under our roof being covertly recorded. She will be asking her lawyer about that on Monday before Friday's deposition.

He’s way too in the weeds with what’s going on at your house. Your wife also needs to protect herself. Look into asking all communications go through MyFamilyWizard. My ex would send 5 page rambling emails insulting me in response to things like “what time do you want to pick up the kids on Friday?”. I successfully got a PFA where the remedy was communications only go through MFW. The peace was sublime after that.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
BBB1975 wrote:
sphere wrote:
Quote:
Sphere may see it as what is best for the kids, the judge may see it as a typical trick a custodial parent does to undermine the other parent.


I have to wonder how often that is used as a "trick" as opposed to being construed that way by the noncustodial parent.

In our case, her ex said she shall not sign them up for any activities that fall on "his" weekend, when she mentioned that the kids were interested in playing soccer, volleyball, and basketball. She informed him that she will sign them up, they can make every practice and every game that falls on "her" weekend, and that whether he takes them to their games, or allows them to stay home with us on those weekends so they can attend, will be up to him. She never said that they cannot go with him on those weekends or that he must take them, only that they want to participate and it's his decision. She told the kids it will be up to their father if they go to the games on that weekend and stay at his home in the area, or if he has other plans for them. That has been well documented in the emails.

If a judge is inclined to see that as a trick, so be it.

How would it look if it were not a trick but mom understands that sports and activities are healthy for kids and wants them to participate however possible, but defers to the other parent on his weekends? Pretty much the same, I would imagine.


Her ex is right and most courts will agree with him that your wife shouldn’t be scheduling stuff on his parenting time. The courts tend to view NCP parenting time as sacred.

To answer your question, I would view it as slightly manipulative. I don’t think you wife is malicious, but, it puts her ex in a situation where he is viewed as the bad guy to the kids if he doesn’t go along with what their mother wants.


I have a hard time imagining being able to let the kids do any sports if you’re only allowed to sign them up for things that would never fall on the other parent’s occasional custodial weekend. If the courts view that as the standard, then the courts are wrong.

Of course the courts prefer for the parents to work it out, but, the theory is when there’s joint legal custody, both parents are assumed to be able to make appropriate decisions for the kids equally. It really shouldn’t be a big deal if both parents are local, but, in my case, my ex was the one that moved 90 minutes away and was awarded primary residency after us doing a 50/50 arrangement for 4 years.

Kids were with me for the majority of the summer, like clockwork, every April/May, one of them would come down with some mysterious ailment that required twice weekly appointments in their mother’s town. I didn’t play that game. Week one when they were with me, I got a second opinion in my town, and followed it, taking the kids to practitioners in my town during the summer.

My ex would go ballistic, say I’m an over controlling, narcissistic a@#hole, not doing right by the kids. She would take me to court for contempt, I would provide my records, the judge would dismiss her petition, stating that my ex had no right to schedule events on my time without my agreement, and that I was providing appropriate care.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Something like over 200 posts about sequalae of a divorce. I am puzzled. In general not much reflection on why people get divorced in the first place. So perhaps they can avoid all this misery. There seem to obviously be circumstances where one partners behaviour is so bad there is no alternative. But that cannot be the case in the majority of divorces if it is it means that a large slice of the population really sucks.

Why can't people get along when so much is at stake when kids are involved. Both parties likely say they love their kids and would do almost anything for them. I just don't get it. It seems like the most palpable evidence that long term people are not meant to live together.

Two of my best friends have been involved in particularly nasty divorces. In one case my friend obviously sucked given he repeatedly had affairs and consorted with sex workers. In the other case my friend his wife seems rather psychotic.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Court was yesterday, 9am-430pm. Full day.

His lawyer showed up at the wrong courthouse in the wrong town, thus delaying the start by nearly an hour. My wife went alone, he showed up with his wife and two sisters. All three testified to little more than how happy and well adjusted the kids are. His wife testified that, among other things, she and her daughter and he are currently in family therapy after a year of marriage and thinks my wife’s daughter should attend as well. She testified that he works full time and she works 7 days a week teaching Pilates. Sort of an odd way to argue that the kids should be uprooted for three straight months from their home where mom works part time in order to be home for the kids.

On the issues:
  • Driving: the judge ruled that there’s no compelling reason to change the current arrangement, with the exception of moving the mutual meeting point closer to my wife during holiday exchanges since he’s moved slightly closer to our location.
  • Custody: my wife was asked by her lawyer to submit a proposal that she is amenable to, the only change being an additional week with him in the summer, and that holiday custody isn’t left to argue over, so there are assigned days now. He adopted her proposal without changes.
  • Who calls who what: his wife admitted that the kids started calling her “mom” but that her daughter was upset by it, so they insisted on different terms, which is what sent him after my wife about what the youngest calls me. Judge said none of it matters, so long as it’s respectful. Tossed the issue.
  • School: He was paying 50% of tuition for two kids prior to court. He’s now paying 80% for all 3 kids given his income, some of which he attempted to hide from the court and got called out for.
  • Child support: Upward adjustment of child support by an additional $1,200 monthly in addition to tuition. Arrears due dating to January 2024 added, to include tuition.
  • Phone access: ruled that he presented no evidence that she has withheld access to the kids or vice versa and that she’s made accommodations beyond what is required; she does not have an obligation to allow him or his family to her personal cell phone.
  • Weekend activities: mom has the right to sign them up for sports without his consent; he has the right to take them or not on his weekends
  • ATV/extracurriculars: “It’s apparent which one of you grew up in the country and which one grew up in the city.” As long as they’re taking appropriate safety precautions, it’s her business what activities they pursue including ATVs, dirt bikes, etc.
  • Court fees: He is responsible for 100% of his and 50% of hers. Roughly $40k all told.
  • He was forced to admit his GOMOR conviction in front of his family and wife, who had no idea about it.

Judge said all he’s heard from him and his lawyer is what he wants and nothing about what’s good for the kids. He admonished him for his approach to the situation and the arguments he brought to court.

FAFO.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: May 4, 24 6:48
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like it went about as well as you could have hoped. Must be a relief for your wife.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Ouch.

The schadenfreude is strong over here.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Court was yesterday, 9am-430pm. Full day.

His lawyer showed up at the wrong courthouse in the wrong town, thus delaying the start by nearly an hour. My wife went alone, he showed up with his wife and two sisters. All three testified to little more than how happy and well adjusted the kids are. His wife testified that, among other things, she and her daughter and he are currently in family therapy after a year of marriage and thinks my wife’s daughter should attend as well. She testified that he works full time and she works 7 days a week teaching Pilates. Sort of an odd way to argue that the kids should be uprooted for three straight months from their home where mom works part time in order to be home for the kids.

On the issues:
  • Driving: the judge ruled that there’s no compelling reason to change the current arrangement, with the exception of moving the mutual meeting point closer to my wife during holiday exchanges since he’s moved slightly closer to our location.
  • Custody: my wife was asked by her lawyer to submit a proposal that she is amenable to, the only change being an additional week with him in the summer, and that holiday custody isn’t left to argue over, so there are assigned days now. He adopted her proposal without changes.
  • Who calls who what: his wife admitted that the kids started calling her “mom” but that her daughter was upset by it, so they insisted on different terms, which is what sent him after my wife about what the youngest calls me. Judge said none of it matters, so long as it’s respectful. Tossed the issue.
  • School: He was paying 50% of tuition for two kids prior to court. He’s now paying 80% for all 3 kids given his income, some of which he attempted to hide from the court and got called out for.
  • Child support: Upward adjustment of child support by an additional $1,200 monthly in addition to tuition. Arrears due dating to January 2024 added, to include tuition.
  • Phone access: ruled that he presented no evidence that she has withheld access to the kids or vice versa and that she’s made accommodations beyond what is required; she does not have an obligation to allow him or his family to her personal cell phone.
  • Weekend activities: mom has the right to sign them up for sports without his consent; he has the right to take them or not on his weekends
  • ATV/extracurriculars: “It’s apparent which one of you grew up in the country and which one grew up in the city.” As long as they’re taking appropriate safety precautions, it’s her business what activities they pursue including ATVs, dirt bikes, etc.
  • Court fees: He is responsible for 100% of his and 50% of hers. Roughly $40k all told.
  • He was forced to admit his GOMOR conviction in front of his family and wife, who had no idea about it.

Judge said all he’s heard from him and his lawyer is what he wants and nothing about what’s good for the kids. He admonished him for his approach to the situation and the arguments he brought to court.

FAFO.
So this was a court application that he brought, but he ended up losing/paying more on almost every issue? Some really bad legal advice there (or a stubborn/stupid client).

How has he been to date in terms of paying support? Do you think he'll withhold any payments as retribution to your wife?
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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This is the best news I've heard in weeks! I love it when assholes get their comeuppance!

I know this has been weighing pretty heavy on you, Sphere, and I would imagine your wife, as well. Hope you guys were able to have a nice, relaxing evening last night after it was all said and done. Have yourselves a fine rest of the weekend!
- Jeff
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Apollo71] [ In reply to ]
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He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations!
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [jkstevens] [ In reply to ]
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Appreciate that. Yes, it’s like she’s emerged from a near drowning and can finally breathe. Today is the lightest I’ve seen her in months.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.

Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure "entertaining" is the right word as it's a serious stuff.

Your regular updates allow us all to follow along as things develop. It's like a cross between a soap drama / reality TV show. But very real for you and yours.

Glad to hear that things are seem to be turning out as they should, and in your favor.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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This feels like when you see someone do some seriously egregious shit on the road, and you wish there was a cop around right then....only this time there is.

Hope y'all are breathing a little easier tonight.

_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Great news. I hope things are less stressful for you all over the summer.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Is the custody case assigned to that judge?

I particularly like: “Judge said none of it matters, so long as it’s respectful.”
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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The judge was a substitute for the one she was supposed to have, who has ruled on their issues twice before. Lawyer says it happens in about 10% of cases. He’s from the county immediately west of here, as rural and remote a county you’ll find in VA; wife thinks it worked to her advantage (reference the comment on ATVs) and created a somewhat My Cousin Vinny dynamic with her ex and his family.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [TiDriver] [ In reply to ]
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One of the more delicious details is that my wife’s lawyer asked her if she wanted to hire a court reporter, which is necessary for appealing the ruling. She declined. He came back again and said his lawyer asked if she’d be willing to split the cost to obtain one, and she declined again. He didn’t want to pay the $600 to get one for himself, so now he’s stuck with a $40k tab for a case that went entirely against him in addition to higher child support and tuition burden, and arrears, that he chose to bring to the court, and no means to directly appeal because he didn’t want to spend the extra $300 himself.

I’m glad that door is closed but it would have been satisfying to read through the transcript.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.

Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....

I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.

Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....

I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.

You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Dang, it would be great to have the case permanently assigned to that judge.

This ruling will always be beneficial to your wife because she can refer to it, and it will be instructive to the regular judge. You know, in law and motion we always refer to the papers and records on file in a matter. In this case, I would try to identify a few general take-aways from this ruling and beat them like a drum in every future hearing.

For instance, the theme of respect being a foundational principle for behavioral rules for kids which is more important than any particular word in the kids’ vocabulary. Lack of respect will probably resurface in the future (because the ex struggles with that concept). This order provides a bit of clarity on the primacy of respect. That’s nice.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.

To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.

To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.

Having a client who thinks they know more than you do is the biggest pain in the ass to deal with. They are usually the kind where if they get an adverse ruling, the first thing they will do is to not want to pay their fees and then if you attempt to go after them for fees, they will claim malpractice.

My firm actually has a question on the new business intake form that asks if the potential matter is coming from other counsel, and if so, why they are changing counsel.

Note: We do not do any kind of family law ever.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.


To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.

I assume firms focused on family practice don't rely on getting paid more based on success in court, like a personal claims lawyer might? I do wonder if they build firm reputation and client base in part based on success in these issues. I don't think any firm wants to be known as the one who takes their clients ' money but doesn't succeed in getting them what they want.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
DavHamm wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.


To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.

I assume firms focused on family practice don't rely on getting paid more based on success in court, like a personal claims lawyer might? I do wonder if they build firm reputation and client base in part based on success in these issues. I don't think any firm wants to be known as the one who takes their clients ' money but doesn't succeed in getting them what they want.

Right. For the most part, success-based contingency fees in family law cases would be barred by the ethics rules.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [ike] [ In reply to ]
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ike wrote:
slowguy wrote:
DavHamm wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.


To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.


I assume firms focused on family practice don't rely on getting paid more based on success in court, like a personal claims lawyer might? I do wonder if they build firm reputation and client base in part based on success in these issues. I don't think any firm wants to be known as the one who takes their clients ' money but doesn't succeed in getting them what they want.


Right. For the most part, success-based contingency fees in family law cases would be barred by the ethics rules.

That's what I figured. It makes more sense when the goal is a large settlement, because that provides significant incentive for the lawyer to do well. Not the same dynamic when you're talking about child custody arrangements or child-support payment.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DavHamm wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
j p o wrote:
sphere wrote:
He’s a master marksman at shooting himself in the foot. 0/3 in court and every time for good cause.

The problem is he’s a legit sociopath. He doesn’t recognize good from bad, or normal from abnormal. Every piece of evidence he entered worked directly against him; recording the kids covertly, video of him digging through her phone without consent to show his number was blocked, one thing after another. I’m just relieved the judge saw it for what it was and let him know what he thought about it.


Glad it went well for you. You'd hope this would slow him down in the future, but ....


I believe there’s a six or twelve month moratorium on bringing the case to court again following a ruling, but you’re right, I suspect he won’t learn this time either. He’s an idiot with means and he probably won’t have trouble finding another lawyer eager to cash his check. It makes me wonder though, do attorneys talk about these kinds of cases in closed circles, and maintain some sort of informal “do not represent” list? It was clear this one didn’t know his history and got blindsided on several occasions. I’d be shocked if they worked together in the future, but also if a family law attorney in the area takes up his case in the future knowing his history in the courtroom.


You tell stories without names or too many details.

But if I'm a family law attorney I would not be eager to jump into a case with a long history of losing. Experience teaches you to spot problem clients fast. But I would guess someone will think, "how bad can it be?"

I wouldn't touch divorce work no matter how much I needed money. I'd much rather work on indigent criminal cases, and that says a lot.

To side track this a bit (First Congrats, Sphere and Mrs, I am sure summer will be more enjoyable with this out of the way).. JPO is it just lawyers don't like losing? I mean as long as you can tolerate the client, I would think a client that wants to go to court all the time, even if they are going to lose, would be a solid $$ stream, then again, maybe most lawyers have enough business so it doesn't matter. Just seems odd that a business would not want a client who over utilizes the service. Like a lawn care company turning down someone who wants their lawn mowed daily.

The first phrase and the second tend to be mutually exclusive.

The kind of person who wants to take their spouse to court all the time even though they lose is not the kind that is tolerable to be around. Shit people make shit clients. Family law sucks. I don't know how anyone specializes in it.

I'd rather staple my dick to a stick and light it on fire than represent this kind of guy. (Link for context https://www.salon.com/2000/02/23/penis_2/ )

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I'd rather staple my dick to a stick and light it on fire than represent this kind of guy

According to my wife there were a few instances where his lawyer seemed surprised by his answers and behavior. At one point during cross he became visibly angry and started arguing with her lawyer so aggressively that her lawyer essentially told him to chill the fuck out, the judge intervened and reinforced what her lawyer said. She said her eyes met with his lawyers for a split second in a WTF look from him and a this is what I've been dealing with from her. Aside from the considerable invoice, it's hard to imagine he'd want to staple his dick to that particular stick again in the future.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Divorce and child custody/legal issues questions [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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My wife was a family law lawyer. I can confirm that it sucks, hard. She is no longer a practicing lawyer.

Mostly the clients are angry and hard to work with because they are unable to think clearly on this topic because they hate the opposition.

"I AM NOT LETTING THAT WOMAN GET MY HOUSE!!"

"You know, if you just sell the house and split the money from it, nobody gets the house and you can both move on..."

"I AM NOT SELLING MY HOUSE!!!!"

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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