We’re going down the same road. My first two words to you in this thread were the first two workds in post #3.

“How exactly” does the case in your OP make “minced meat” of the people with black and white opinions on the trans in sport issue?

My mincemeat phrase indicated that a good solution in this case in not easy.

For example, your solution in post #3 is one that many, many people seem quite unhappy with. Maybe even lots of girls x-c runners.

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In fact the black and white solutions offered are still very straightforward, leave little to no margin for error and are in fact very very very easy. It actually doesn’t get any simpler than that.

You just choose not to see that and so you claim that the solution isn’t easy.

I do see your black/white solution (let her compete, since she did not got through male puberty).

The problem is that it still leaves many, many, many people (mostly republicans and maybe some of her female competitors) very unhappy. VERY unhappy.

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It’s interesting how you default to the political tagging. As in your assumption is that “most” of the people who will be upset are republicans and only “maybe some” of other female competitors will be unhappy.

You and I both know that it is far more that “maybe some” females who are unhappy with biological men competing in their sports. And I can tell you that I have been in the youth and competitive sports realm for over a decade so I can tell you my n=1 is that parents on both sides of the aisle prefer to keep biological males outside of women’s categories.

And who fucking cares if some people are left unhappy? That’s called a compromise. In fact a decent amount of compromise has been offered on this issue from the side that support protections for biological women.

You need to keep reading posts and I have to keep telling you this. In post 3 I offered two possible solutions. And I don’t care if some people, any people, are unhappy. Only you see that as a problem here.

So, I am confused, irrelevant of their political stripes, you are totally ok if the other female X-C racers (and their parents) in her running events are totally unhappy competing against this trans athlete? And if they feel it is profoundly unfair to them?

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What exactly do you think a cross country race is?

The following is my opinion only:

Goal: Inclusivity and fairness to women’s sport within the framework of our equal society.

Caveat: Cannot compromise the underlying tenet of priority to biological women regardless of a percentage of biological women that don’t care/mind.

Tow options discussed here:

1. No biological men at all pre or post puberty
- Dont care if trans community/individuals are upset
- Don’t care if biological women who want inclusivity are upset

2. Biological males allowed pre-puberty
- don’t care if trans community/individuals are upset
- don’t care if biological women who want inclusivity are upset
- don’t care if biological women are upset that biological males are included pre-puberty

So no, I do not care that w will not likely find a solution that makes everyone happy eh sure that’s simply not realistic or representative of how the real world works. I don’t care if some people find a solution is unfair if it preserves the ultimate goal.

Detailed reply, thanks.

What got you to this opinion? What makes you confident that you are correct? If the trans girl in the OP were to enter a girls XC race and 95% of the field of biological female runners (and their parents) were miserable at having to race with her and you got death threats (say, if you were a judge, or maybe a race official) and so on, should we (as a society) just ignore their concerns about fair sportsmanship?

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Nice straw man. Why do you think the solution to this is difficult? Why should we tolerate illegal actions (death threats) without addressing them?

People on all sides need to control their emotions and act like sensible respectful human beings. If you can’t, you are not allowed to participate.

There are many people who think trans women should never be allowed to compete against cis women, except maybe with the consent of the cis women. Whatever the merits of that position, there is no compromise in it. If someone thinks the plaintiff in this case should lose, then they’re basically taking the absolute position. You can’t get a much better plaintiff than this one. There certainly are serious arguments for the absolute position, but let’s not characterize it as a “balance.” It’s not. It’s saying that the rights of cis women always outweigh those of trans women in the sports context.

I, too, think we will make progress on this issue. We have made progress on so many other civil rights issues, so why not this one?

Of course they should be civil. Always.

But how confident are you in the correctness of forcing a whole field of xc girls to race against someone (a biological male) they feel has an unfair advantage? Do we just ignore all the girls and their parents?

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You are not forcing anyone to do anything. If the rules are laid out ahead of time, then all the competitors can choose whether to race in that race/league. And the people that run that league can listen to the will of the people. In this case, maybe the race is not really a competitive thing. Maybe results are not so important (rec vs comp). My opinion is that the womens race should be biological female only. And anyone can race in the mens/open division. That really is as you like to say in this thread, the "Simple" solution. And no, not everyone will be happy.

I follow your logic, but it appears that yeeper disagrees with this. He thinks the trans girl in the OP should be allowed to compete with/against biological girls. How would you react if a race official had this position?

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Then why the ridiculous strawman hypothetical?


When did I say I was ok forcing that? I’m quite the opposite.

I did not mean to do that, to add any straw.



See your 'option #2' in post #33.

You said there that you would allow her to race and ignore others' reactions. Did I read that wrong?

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This is not complex at all and should not even be an issue for discussion or politics. Biological girls play on teams with and against Biological girls.....period. The exception is if all the girls on the team and league want to allow biological boys to play in their league. We have leagues like that now and they are called Co-ed. ( there are typically rules for these leagues such as number of bio boys that can be on the team and what positions they play so as not to injure the girls)

Biological boys play only on teams against biological boys.

There is no need to make any changes to this system as it would harm and cause injury to biological girls and make a mockery of girls sports.

People get pissed about all sorts of stuff. Because someone gets mad at the rules is zero basis for changing any of the rules.

Then please stop filling the barn.




Ah. There the key difference is pre-pubescent biological male. Based on the evidence we have there is no apparent unfair advantage. So those people can suck it up idc how upset they are. Of the evidence shows their is no advantage then their perception of it being unfair is just that and they’re ill-informed.

If we get new data that shows there is an advantage then I’ll amend my position.

I follow your logic, but it appears that yeeper disagrees with this. He thinks the trans girl in the OP should be allowed to compete with/against biological girls. Do you not agree?

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I don't differ with you, but a good percentage of americans and some posters on this thread vehemently disagree with you. So you would tell a bunch of ill-informed girls and their parents to just suck it up? Even if they are convinced that this is profoundly unfair?

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To be clear I never said that. I don’t know enough about the blockers and their effectiveness which is a whole other issue. I said PRE-pubescent individuals. I did not say individuals of pubescent age or older and as long as they’ve taken meds. This was intentional on my part.

I never said your OP individual was ok to race at their age or under said medical treatment regimen.

Stop making assumptions and stretching arguments.

No, the biological boy/ trans girl, should not under any circumstances be allowed to participate in biological girls sports. We have operated this way since time immemorial and there is no reason to change it. Girls and boys are not the same physically and girls should not have to compete against boys, particularly when it comes to spots on select teams, college scholarships, recognition for winning events or anything.

One of my daughters is about to start club VB tryouts again. Anyone that has been through this knows it's crazy, stressful and you are just trying to make the best team you can. If a bio boy was on the court's it would be unfair to every single bio girls in the gym, club and league.

Sorry, my mistake. I misread that.

So, based on info in the article, you feel the trans girl in the OP should not compete with biological girls, is that correct?

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Oh my goodness the travesty! 😱 Can you imagine the horror of people not always getting what they want and having to handle their emotions and the realities of the world.

Or more importantly adhering to the rules of the competition they agreed to voluntarily.

I never said that either. Re-read my post in this quote.