As one might expect, the two judges in the majority are D appointees, and the dissenting judge is an R appointee.

The decision:

https://wp.api.aclu.org/...2024/04/Document.pdf

How, exactly? Most arguments I’ve seen either say no, or OK if the athlete hasn’t gone through puberty. Seems like a pretty straightforward take in this situation and no new argument I’ve seen.

Where is this “minemeat” you speak of?

Given your continued insertion of Blakeman into posts, even ones where he is not discussed, I’m led to believe your interests are purely political rather than caring about the issue.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38413534/

This is probably more interesting to read and discuss than the mindless dreck the OP posted

The problem is a legal one, and this will not be the end. The ruling uses Title IX, a law that was supposed to protect girls in sports, as its justification. It has been twisted in a way that does just the opposite, and that is going to cause problems. The law says that you can't discriminate based on sex, and this court has decided that also means sexual orientation. That is the problem many of us have.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Yes, this.

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1. Is there anyone or group that did not weigh in ?
2. Can we expect that some of the legal representation was provided pro bono.
3. Am I the only one who finds the D and R schism in the law on matters of this culture war disturbing.

I do find the issue compelling. While the solution, if there is one, is clearly not staightforward, the issue is a remarkable rorschach test of this era.

No, l just mentioned Blakeman for entertainment value.

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Nope. I'm a life long registered Republican that has voted Democrat, generally, since about 2012. I don't understand why this is even being discussed. It seems very simple to me.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

It is being discussed because the GOP thinks they can use the demonization of trans people for political gain.

The reality is this topic should be managed by the individual sporting federations. Big government edicts are not the answer.

2. Surely, yes.

3. Yes, but no more so than on other issues where the same schism arises. Ds and Rs often have different fundamental values, and that shows up in cases where those values have to be balanced/ weighed.

I don’t think the schism is as bad as you might think.

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports. I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

It seems obviously to many people that trans athletes should be afforded some legal protections as well. Who/ what/ when/ where/ how are all questions that determine the balance of rights.

I woke up feeling optimistic today. I think most people recognize the value of community and the need to balance rights so that everyone can enjoy and participate in community. We’ll get there.

Puberty blocking hormones do not make the penis shrink into a clitoris and testicles / sack fully disappear...

And this is why the CHAGA movement is doomed. lol

That study has little to do with the topic.

It is common for young children (3-7) to question their gender. The vast majority of these young child desist. For a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, or for someone to be trans, the gender incongruence needs to be persistent.

Conflating gender questioning youth with trans youth is a common bad faith talking point pushed by the trans panic crowd. It only serves to confirm their limited understanding of the topic.

Gender identification, not sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is who you're attracted to.

The athlete identifies as a girl. If we take that identification at face value, she should be awarded the same protections that title IX afford to all women. The problem is anatomically and physiologically she is a boy.

This always seems to distill down to the same question we have been flogging to death for years now which is what actually makes a woman a woman. Anatomy? Self identification? Some combination of the two?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a legal issue. In fact it has been argued as such on both sides. Both are citing Title IX but it still comes back to the same hurdle "how are we defining a woman."

My question to DSW was how did this particular articles make "mincemeat" of the people with black and white positions on the matter. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly I don't see anything in that writeup that undercuts the notion of "biological males shouldn't compete against biological females."

EDIT: Also not sure where sexual orientation comes into the trans sports issue.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.


Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Well-said.

Where do you think reasonable fairness can start for inclusion and fairness for all on this subject? I mean this seriously considering the LI thread went a different direction.

I thought that law did a good job of starting to identify the who/what/when/where/why.

I am in full agreement that both trans individuals and biological women need and deserve protections and fairness in the best way possible. And I believe "best way possible" is where the disagreements meet.

That's just DSW flexing the masters degree in click bait he received from the prestigious Big Kahuna School of Bullshit.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

This is why there is such a disagreement. Because when dealing with fairness in sport physical ability and biological gender has often been the gold standard for creating a level playing field so to speak. And further, that is separated into weight classes for fairness. So many people find that the solution is very straightforward in terms of physical realities. Biology dictates the fairest designations. Whats so complicated about that?

Its funny you mention rorschach as that is widely accepted as a measure of emotion with respect to the lens an individual looks through. And generally emotion is not a great driver of logical and rationale.

Entertainment value? Love to crack yourself up i guess.

The case in the article talks about a trans girl that did not have (male) puberty. I too feel that biological males that have gone through male puberty should not compete directly against biological females for podiums, prizes, etc. if the biological females do not want it. (But if the biological females are all for it, then I think I am good with it.)

But this is not an adult, this is a trans female that did not have (male) puberty. Apparently, some people feel she could compete fairly against biological females. But others feel that she should not compete against biological females. Can you use your black/white viewpoint to solve this issue and make everybody happy? (competitors, parents, politicians, the local community, random onlookers, etc.) I ask this because I do not see an immediate easy answer that will be happily accepted by everyone. Do you?

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CHAGA=?

Your flawed premise is that you keep painting with broad inclusive brush strokes.

Not all women are ok with competing against biological males. Not EVERYONE will be happy. And not EVERYONE must be happy. Emotions are going to cloud lots of minds. People will be angry and confused. Thats just the way it goes.

But stop with the broad generalized assumptions.

Ok, no worries, what is your best solution to the case in the OP, a solution that you think will be fair and make the most people happy? i.e., your "best way possible."

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We’re going down the same road. My first two words to you in this thread were the first two workds in post #3.

“How exactly” does the case in your OP make “minced meat” of the people with black and white opinions on the trans in sport issue?

My mincemeat phrase indicated that a good solution in this case in not easy.

For example, your solution in post #3 is one that many, many people seem quite unhappy with. Maybe even lots of girls x-c runners.

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In fact the black and white solutions offered are still very straightforward, leave little to no margin for error and are in fact very very very easy. It actually doesn’t get any simpler than that.

You just choose not to see that and so you claim that the solution isn’t easy.

I do see your black/white solution (let her compete, since she did not got through male puberty).

The problem is that it still leaves many, many, many people (mostly republicans and maybe some of her female competitors) very unhappy. VERY unhappy.

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It’s interesting how you default to the political tagging. As in your assumption is that “most” of the people who will be upset are republicans and only “maybe some” of other female competitors will be unhappy.

You and I both know that it is far more that “maybe some” females who are unhappy with biological men competing in their sports. And I can tell you that I have been in the youth and competitive sports realm for over a decade so I can tell you my n=1 is that parents on both sides of the aisle prefer to keep biological males outside of women’s categories.

And who fucking cares if some people are left unhappy? That’s called a compromise. In fact a decent amount of compromise has been offered on this issue from the side that support protections for biological women.

You need to keep reading posts and I have to keep telling you this. In post 3 I offered two possible solutions. And I don’t care if some people, any people, are unhappy. Only you see that as a problem here.

So, I am confused, irrelevant of their political stripes, you are totally ok if the other female X-C racers (and their parents) in her running events are totally unhappy competing against this trans athlete? And if they feel it is profoundly unfair to them?

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What exactly do you think a cross country race is?

The following is my opinion only:

Goal: Inclusivity and fairness to women’s sport within the framework of our equal society.

Caveat: Cannot compromise the underlying tenet of priority to biological women regardless of a percentage of biological women that don’t care/mind.

Tow options discussed here:

1. No biological men at all pre or post puberty
- Dont care if trans community/individuals are upset
- Don’t care if biological women who want inclusivity are upset

2. Biological males allowed pre-puberty
- don’t care if trans community/individuals are upset
- don’t care if biological women who want inclusivity are upset
- don’t care if biological women are upset that biological males are included pre-puberty

So no, I do not care that w will not likely find a solution that makes everyone happy eh sure that’s simply not realistic or representative of how the real world works. I don’t care if some people find a solution is unfair if it preserves the ultimate goal.

Detailed reply, thanks.

What got you to this opinion? What makes you confident that you are correct? If the trans girl in the OP were to enter a girls XC race and 95% of the field of biological female runners (and their parents) were miserable at having to race with her and you got death threats (say, if you were a judge, or maybe a race official) and so on, should we (as a society) just ignore their concerns about fair sportsmanship?

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Nice straw man. Why do you think the solution to this is difficult? Why should we tolerate illegal actions (death threats) without addressing them?

People on all sides need to control their emotions and act like sensible respectful human beings. If you can’t, you are not allowed to participate.

There are many people who think trans women should never be allowed to compete against cis women, except maybe with the consent of the cis women. Whatever the merits of that position, there is no compromise in it. If someone thinks the plaintiff in this case should lose, then they’re basically taking the absolute position. You can’t get a much better plaintiff than this one. There certainly are serious arguments for the absolute position, but let’s not characterize it as a “balance.” It’s not. It’s saying that the rights of cis women always outweigh those of trans women in the sports context.

I, too, think we will make progress on this issue. We have made progress on so many other civil rights issues, so why not this one?

Of course they should be civil. Always.

But how confident are you in the correctness of forcing a whole field of xc girls to race against someone (a biological male) they feel has an unfair advantage? Do we just ignore all the girls and their parents?

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You are not forcing anyone to do anything. If the rules are laid out ahead of time, then all the competitors can choose whether to race in that race/league. And the people that run that league can listen to the will of the people. In this case, maybe the race is not really a competitive thing. Maybe results are not so important (rec vs comp). My opinion is that the womens race should be biological female only. And anyone can race in the mens/open division. That really is as you like to say in this thread, the "Simple" solution. And no, not everyone will be happy.

I follow your logic, but it appears that yeeper disagrees with this. He thinks the trans girl in the OP should be allowed to compete with/against biological girls. How would you react if a race official had this position?

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Then why the ridiculous strawman hypothetical?


When did I say I was ok forcing that? I’m quite the opposite.

I did not mean to do that, to add any straw.



See your 'option #2' in post #33.

You said there that you would allow her to race and ignore others' reactions. Did I read that wrong?

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This is not complex at all and should not even be an issue for discussion or politics. Biological girls play on teams with and against Biological girls.....period. The exception is if all the girls on the team and league want to allow biological boys to play in their league. We have leagues like that now and they are called Co-ed. ( there are typically rules for these leagues such as number of bio boys that can be on the team and what positions they play so as not to injure the girls)

Biological boys play only on teams against biological boys.

There is no need to make any changes to this system as it would harm and cause injury to biological girls and make a mockery of girls sports.

People get pissed about all sorts of stuff. Because someone gets mad at the rules is zero basis for changing any of the rules.

Then please stop filling the barn.




Ah. There the key difference is pre-pubescent biological male. Based on the evidence we have there is no apparent unfair advantage. So those people can suck it up idc how upset they are. Of the evidence shows their is no advantage then their perception of it being unfair is just that and they’re ill-informed.

If we get new data that shows there is an advantage then I’ll amend my position.

I follow your logic, but it appears that yeeper disagrees with this. He thinks the trans girl in the OP should be allowed to compete with/against biological girls. Do you not agree?

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I don't differ with you, but a good percentage of americans and some posters on this thread vehemently disagree with you. So you would tell a bunch of ill-informed girls and their parents to just suck it up? Even if they are convinced that this is profoundly unfair?

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To be clear I never said that. I don’t know enough about the blockers and their effectiveness which is a whole other issue. I said PRE-pubescent individuals. I did not say individuals of pubescent age or older and as long as they’ve taken meds. This was intentional on my part.

I never said your OP individual was ok to race at their age or under said medical treatment regimen.

Stop making assumptions and stretching arguments.

No, the biological boy/ trans girl, should not under any circumstances be allowed to participate in biological girls sports. We have operated this way since time immemorial and there is no reason to change it. Girls and boys are not the same physically and girls should not have to compete against boys, particularly when it comes to spots on select teams, college scholarships, recognition for winning events or anything.

One of my daughters is about to start club VB tryouts again. Anyone that has been through this knows it's crazy, stressful and you are just trying to make the best team you can. If a bio boy was on the court's it would be unfair to every single bio girls in the gym, club and league.

Sorry, my mistake. I misread that.

So, based on info in the article, you feel the trans girl in the OP should not compete with biological girls, is that correct?

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Oh my goodness the travesty! 😱 Can you imagine the horror of people not always getting what they want and having to handle their emotions and the realities of the world.

Or more importantly adhering to the rules of the competition they agreed to voluntarily.

I never said that either. Re-read my post in this quote.

Ok, so you are ok with the trans girl in the OP competing with biological girls?

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Do you not understand that sometimes people can be in a position to not have an opinion because they are not informed enough or don’t think the available information is comprehensive enough?

some girls were essentially bikini bottoms for running...

Yes.

Ok, so you have no opinion on the trans girl in the OP being able to compete against biological girls, is that correct?

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Correct

DSW can not understand. These things never stop him from opining based on whatever the far left talking point is.

First, she's 13, and therefore well within the window for onset of male puberty. Assuming we're still talking about the girl in the OP, I think I skipped about 100 Yeeper-DSW "clarification" posts.

That aside, even if "the science" is conclusive that there's no performance advantage to the pre-pubescent male over "biological" female, I still have issues.

One is consistency. It might be "unfair" to let a trans girl play and compete with women for years - until the first hint of male puberty - and then pull the carpet from underneath her. It might be better for long-term well-being to have a continuous, consistent set of playmates and competitors. I say might. I'll let genuine scientists answer that. It just seems like a tradeoff to me, with its own pitfalls.

The second, is I feel the decisions - at any age - regarding things like hormone blockers and surgeries to be 100% based on the well-being of the person. And zero % on meeting some sports rule. The scenario of a high school freshman trans girl going on hormone blockers not purely for dysphoria symptom relief, but because of state scholastic rule VXV.14.a so she can continue to compete as a girl is borderline horrifying to me. Those decisions are between kids, their parents, and doctors. Sports officials or state legislators should have near-zero influence, even indirectly.

I felt the same way about Caster Semenya. (not trans, but some similar issues). For a short period she went on hormone blockers to meet a sports rule, and described it as an utterly awful part of her life. That's wrong. She might disagree with me, but I think it might have been more ethical to tell her, "You're a female in many ways. But you have testes. I'm sorry, your Olympic-level competition cohort is other people with testes." (I'm just assuming here that she has testes that produce T, though her precise physiology is understandably private. It seems consistent with what we know about her.)

As I said. Put it in the rules. If it's not in the rules then I shouldn't argue. But if it is a concern then I'd look at the rules. One thing to note is this was a local race and the girl in question it said had been identifying as a girl since I think I read 3rd grade. People in the community probably knew her.

I don’t disagree with any of that. I feel very similar with respect to the blockers and cannot echo enough how the sport is secondary to individual overall well-being.

Why would you block Caster? Aren’t all high level athletes like that genetic lottery winners anyway? You want to make the call which lotteries are ok to win which ones are not? At that point won’t you just be picking the winners? Just silly to punish her for winning too big in the genetic lottery.


This is a diffuse topic that has lots of nuance and is going to require rules that have lots of nuance. I don’t think allowing this 12 year old girl to compete in cross country is really a problem here for anyone. At the Olympic level I could see there being a much finer line, but fucking 12 year old cross country should not have that strict of a line.

Are you demanding 12 years run in bikini bottoms? Because I don’t think we should require that.

So, if people in the community knew her, not sure what the means to you. Does that mean that you think she can race, or cannot race? (with girls)

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The gonadal hormone axis and male puberty are likely the primary differential between male and female athletic performance. And it's not a small differential. Not small at all. The large differential in performance due to gonadal hormones is a very large part of what led to the creation of women's sport.

To suggest it's just like me not being in the NBA because Lebron got a better roll of the dice, is, I think, disingenuous.

It is not disingenuous, because you make it seem like there is a clear line between Caster and every other woman. But that is not true, there is not some clear distinct line. In reality Caster was just an extreme end of a continuum. Any line you draw is deciding where on that line the genetic lottery is too good. Are you going to make it at under developed testes? How under developed is allowed? What about one? What about other organs that have xy cells and produce more male like hormonal levels, while other cells are XX?

And comparing to Lebron is silly, since he is not competing in the wmba. There isn’t another league for Lebron to compete in. A non-disingenuous comparison would be Serena Williams or something.

It doesn't mean that I think anything. It means that people in the community may support her, or they may be saying it's time to compete with her biological sex. Maybe they have seen her beating all the girls easily now as compared to a year or too ago. Maybe they accept her and don't care. It's the community and people in general that matter.

I agree that people matter. But if (hypothetically) they accept her and don't care, then should it be ok for her to race? Or not? Do community wishes override other concerns?

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If there are constructs in place then those constructs need to be respected. Different rules and guidelines exist for recreational events, competitive events, school events, town events, non-sanctioned races, sanctioned races, etc etc etc.

The answer to your question is whatever rules are agreed long ahead of time must be respected and adhered to by whomever is voluntarily participating in said event. Regardless of how the community feels.

Why is this difficult?

chaparral wrote:

In reality Caster was just an extreme end of a continuum.

At some point we need a definition of "woman" for women's sports. Someone brought this point up earlier. If it's "what you choose to identify as" there are going to be very real implications to the nature of women's sports - it could change considerably from what it's considered to be for the last 50-100 years. A few years ago we might have though the #'s would be so small we could just let it pass. But it appears that the numbers may bring the issue to a head. (no pun intended)

If it's "you went through male puberty" then it'll be more consistent with that the historical intent for women's sports has been.

Quote:

And comparing to Lebron is silly, since he is not competing in the wmba. There isn’t another league for Lebron to compete in. A non-disingenuous comparison would be Serena Williams or something.

You're making my point for me. Lebron has a league to compete in that is not the WNBA. Because it would be inappropriate for him to compete in the WNBA. Regardless of what his gender identity is. You agree?


Edit: *competitively inappropriate. I don't care about social or cultural stuff on the basketball court or otherwise. I'm all for trans women being able to freely integrate with biological women in many other ways.


The recent NCAA women's championship was the most-watched basketball game since 2019. Not women's. Not college. *Basketball game*, full stop. It'd be a shame if the Lia Thomas version of an NCAA basketball player were to utterly shut down Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese. Because any run of the mill biological male D-1A player could shut them down at will. Not a shame because I don't like people like Lia. I hope Lia has a happy, successful life. As a woman or whatever path she chooses. I'm not in the least bit angry about her. I just think sports needs to take stock of the competitive implications and possibly make some tough decisions.

Not difficult in any way. Just trying to understand the nuances of different people's views.

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You know sports exist. You’re familiar with sports. You understand there are different levels of sports. So you understand sports operate within an organization that sets rules and guidelines.

Unless the town gets together for each cross country meet and takes a straw poll the day of each event to decide what rules to abide by that day then you understand that there is some governing body that sets the regulations/rules/guidelines in accordance with any number of variables. The community’s opinions don’t fucking matter. Nothing matters except for the rules that are already in place. If the community wants to change those rules then they need to go through the proper channels to tackle that problem.

This is a simple equation. You do seem to be making it difficult.

It’s a sport where someone uses their clitoris or penis to paddle across a pond or lake or, alternatively, you can use it like a sail. It depends on how windy it is. (No offense, windy!)

Again, its not difficult in any way. Just trying to understand the nuances of different people's views. Is that OK with you?

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This may be tangential to the discussion you’re having but, the Fourteenth Amendment and Title IX are not at the race director’s or local community’s discretion. We have to decide whether and how those federal laws protect trans women’s desire to compete with cis women. If the answer is that they do provide some protection — a hotly debated point — then that constrains what the race director or local community can do (at least in the case of a government-sponsored race).

Not at all tangential and you are correct. I think it’s quite relevant I just assumed that was a given. I didn’t specifically say it because I assume that was already accepted.

So you’re saying it’s worthwhile for me to try to understand nuances of people’s views on how many outs they think baseball should have? What’s your opinion if everyone in the stadium got together and agreed that there should be 5 outs?

Should we care if some people in yhe community felt that the men’s and women’s high school soccer team should share players for matches?

It is impossible for me to decide what you (or anyone) feels is worthwhile to understand in baseball or soccer. That's your call.

More on topic, you are ok if trans girls compete with biological girls at certain ages but not at other ages. But other people here feel that trans girls should never compete against biological girls at any age. So there is not a lot of agreement even among people with similar political alignments. Not sure l am succeeding, but l am trying to understand why.

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did she just grow 1 year younger? next year she is in highschool where they start wearing that stuff..

You’re being obtuse here.


You are making it seem like there is so much disagreement and that the disparity between those two scenarios means we need to go back to the drawing board. In fact it’s the opposite: there is a lot of agreement and a reasonable solution has many of the opponents to trans women in women’s sport disagreeing on one detail with regard to age. And I think that’s a reasonable place to be.

Not at all, not "so much" disagreement. And your age position on trans girls seems fairly reasonable, but it appears that others here disagree with you. But it's puzzling why.

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DSW:

Also DSW:

🤦🏻‍♂️ Your own words.


Really? It’s puzzling? You yourself have been involved in many of these threads on the topic and the rationale isn’t anything new.

Some people believe pre-pubescent males don’t possess an unfair advantage and thus don’t see a need to restrict. Yet others may simply want to draw a hard line to keep it clean and say no biological males at all, no matter the age.

It’s not that puzzling; it’s quite straightforward. You simply don’t want to apply yourself to the discussion in order to play the “thoughtful intrigue” game.

Can’t remember your own posts and then playing the ignorance card: Not doing this again tonight. I’m out

Of course there is disagreement. But even in your quotes above, it is totally clear that l never used 'so much disagreement', that was a phrase you generated on your own. But, in the end, discussing the degree of disagreement is just a semantic exercise.



No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this, if fairness to competive girls/women is the main motivation here. But perhaps it's not the real motivation.

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The mere fact you have to use the modifier "trans" actually tells you all you need to know.

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

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Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'm in agreement with you.

Here's something to consider about the genetic lottery and how it applies to sports. A lot of times rules are put into place to handle the exceptions in order to keep the competition competitive. A lot of rules were changed, for example, when Wilt Chamberlain was scoring 50 pts a game and grabbing close to 30 rebounds early in his career.

Likewise I'd imagine if there was some genetic anomaly that allowed a fighter to shed an extra 30 lbs of bodyweight before weigh in such that a 200lb fighter was able to fight in the 170lb division, they'd figure out a way to change the weigh in rules (I'm talking about an additional 30 lbs compared to what they already cut).

I think at some point trans women are going to have to accept that they are trans women. I think it would be much healthier for everyone involved than to pretend that we don't notice and that the transition never actually happened.

If trans men can accept the consequences for transitioning, why can't trans women?

PS - I find it a little odd that someone who is a woman on the inside REALLY needs to play sports, while someone who is a man on the inside is disinterested in sports.

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But there are conservatives on this very thread that support letting prepubescent trans girls compete with similarly aged biological girls, so I do not think your 'process of elimination' approach is valid here.

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The group that has been pushing this topic have been right wing legislators who think that demonizing trans people will help them politically.

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Right wing legislators insisted that lia Thomas be able to compete against women as if she possessed no advantages from having grown up a male?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Careful about generalizations. Many trans women need zero "splaining" about what they "have to accept." Not all trans women are advocates for trans women playing in female sport. Case in point celebrity Jenner. I don't know the ratios - not sure it's been polled. But none of the trans women I know personally are activists in that regard.

And many who are advocates for trans women in women's sport aren't trans.

This is important in viewing trans people as human beings vs. caricatures. The media and social media barrage of smug/masculine Lia Thomas poses is not helpful in this regard - intended to provoke emotional response and a tendency for "Lia smug face" to crystalize in some people's minds as an exemplar of "transgender."

it is a sad state of binary american politics you have to accept this thinking to be a liberal. you either are all in, or on the opposing side...

I am one of the strongest trans allies on this board and have been clear that I think that with most sports M2F trans competitors retain a competitive advantage. Most folks that support full inclusion are doing so because they feel that trans people should treated with dignity and respect and not fully understand the complex biological factors.

The courts are making those decisions confirm that the legislative path was the incorrect one. This is a matter best addressed by sporting federations, like every other rule in sports.

I've been pro gay marriage, pro choice, and in favour of gun control for pretty much my entire life. I hold a lot of liberal views.

That being said, I've been called out for holding "far right views" more than a few times for pushing back on some of the nonsensical points of the current liberal agenda. In my opinion, the left has really lost its way.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Very true. Most trans people I know do not care about this topic and wish it would go away.

It is a sad state of your news sources that you believe such a bullshit claim.

No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this
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I'm not sure what you are expecting here. Are you expecting that there's going to be 100% agreement on the topic of trans MtF in sports, on either side of puberty?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Can you cite some support for that assertion? I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. While I know some liberals who support broader inclusion of trans women in women’s sport, I don’t know any who would declare someone to be a conservative merely because they didn’t agree.

No, I do not expect that.

But it is interesting to me that, even among conservatives, there is considerable disagreement on how to deal with trans athletes at each stage. It seems to call into question why small government folks feel that the "big bad government" needs to step in with blanket laws and bans, vs letting sports governing bodies set the rules for their own sports.

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Is it actually interesting that a large group of people that reside on a wide political spectrum and come from different backgrounds and experiences have different views on how to deal with trans athletes?

Secondly, I'm not sure if sporting governing bodies is the right tool to use for this job as they can be subject to a lot of pressure, fear of cancellation etc. I feel like it is that fear, not necessarily good governance or fair policy, that allowed for things like the Lia Thomas situation in the first place.

Maybe we just need to allow time for the sporting federations to figure it out on their own, but I feel like their starting position was governed by fear, and now they are course correcting due to the blow back they have been receiving.

Maybe that's just the correct process slowly running it's course, and that course doesn't get figured out without the push and pull of various groups weighing in and landing somewhere in the middle, where ultimately nobody is satisfied :P.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I totally agree that sports governing bodies are not perfect (actually, far from it), but do we really want federal or state governments weighing on things like this? First, the rules they come up with will be totally inconsistent in different jurisdictions. Next, they will expand their powers and will want to manage the use of disc wheels, what hockey sticks should be made of, how revealing swim suits should be, what the diameter of soccer balls should be, how age groups should be decided, the list will be endless. Finally, if we don't let sports governing bodies decide the rules for their owns sports, who instead (that is better qualified) will we be asking to do this? Certainly not politicians, some of whom barely know the difference between a volleyball and a basketball.

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But it is interesting to me that, even among conservatives, there is considerable disagreement on how to deal with trans athletes at each stage.
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So, what I think you are saying is that you expect all of the democrats to agree with the rest of the democrats and the pubes to agree with the rest of the pubes with no disagreements on philosophy in the ranks?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

There is no monopoly on mob behavior here. The sports governing body are also subject to pressure and fear of cancellation from the "other" side. Mobs of angry parents hyped up by Fox News showing Lia Thomas smug-face constantly showing up at meets. Lawsuits from AGs under pressure from constituents. Angry lawmakers introducing brute force blanket bans. Outside of sports, seemingly half of America throwing a really weird tantrum at Bud Light because someone 99% of us had never heard of posted herself with a Bud Light can with her likeness on it on IG.

The risk here is just thinking if the outcome isn't what you want it must be because they were "afraid."

It's a tough time to be in those sports governing bodies or legislative bodies, for sure.

But I think they're moving in the direction you'd prefer. IOC in 2021, NCAA tightening up policy in 2022 (not in the way I'd prefer), just after "Lia." Track and field banning transgender athletes from international competition. The UCI in cycling dropping the hammer, effectively ending the women's cycling career of Austin Killups (second most popular in Fox News show-her-face-as-much-as-possible tactic).

The government can have my disc wheels when they pry them from my cold, dead hands!

Title IX was federal legislation. Was that government over reach? I feel like this issue aligns more closely with that type of legislation. This isn't an issue about the specific rules of the sport, it's about discrimination, protected classes etc.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Can you explain what you mean here? Because I don’t see the difference between trans men wanting to compete with men and trans women wanting to compete with women. What are trans men accepting that trans women are not?

Also these same rules are forcing trans men to compete with women in high school sports, even wrestling:

https://www.usnews.com/...h-school-girls-title

Also, can you explain what this means:


Are you saying that there are no trans men wanting to play sports?

No, I do not expect that.

But when there is disagreement in the ranks (in any party, on any topic), I think it is telling. And it is interesting to examine the area(s) of disagreement. Because sometimes looking closely at intra-group disagreements can better help one understand the issue and what might be the true motivations of the group.

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I don't think it was govt over reach because it really only applied to funding of universities (to the best of my knowledge).

I personally would be open to federal legislation with a few caveats. First, it would have to be consistent nationwide, not state-by-state or county-by-county (I am looking at you, Mr Blakeman). But the govt has to let sports federations first try to manage this themselves so it is fair to all athletes, especially women. But if sports governing bodies consistently fail at doing this (but we have to give them at least a little time to sort this out), then, sure, reasonable and fair federal legislation might make sense. Can we expect the current idiotic US congress to create reasonable and fair legislation on this hot-button issue? Unfortunately, I think it is doubtful, but maybe that will change.

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You have a warped view of what how you think politics should function .

I thought that you were "out", but now you're back?

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What are the numbers exactly? Since you are saying numbers were small and are not now, you appear to know the numbers.


But caster was not a male through puberty.
So if someone took puberty blockers, they should be allowed then? If that is the line, then using puberty blockers should allow them to compete as a woman.


This is 12 year old cross country!

I have stated before that the line could very well be drawn in a different place for elite competition. So brining up Caitlin Clark on your part is totally irrelevant and a distraction.

The fact is that sports at these levels is just as much about belonging as it is competition. But if we force trans youth to be even more isolated and unable to participate as their full selves at this age, there is going to be serious harm. Not every girl can play division 1 basketball. That is not something that will isolate a young trans girl. Lots of girls that loved basketball are not going to be able to play at the college level.

Doping is also important for competitive reasons, should the same doping controls be used for all levels of sport?

I don't think the sporting federations positions were governed by fear. The NCAA's original policy was put in place 14 years ago, that was long before this topic became fuel for the outrage machine. 14 years ago they were likely ignorant of topic and skeptical that any trans athletes would actually participate. It was reasonable to be skeptical about participation as trans athletes are still extremely rare. In 2022 there were about 220,000 women competing in NCAA sports, only 34 of them are trans. When Utah passed their ban they had 85,000 athletes competing in sports at state high schools. Four of them were trans, but only one of the athletes was competing in girls' sports. In normal time Conservatives would be outraged at a state legislature that wasted time passing a law for one person.

14 years later there is a lot more information available that enables sporting federations to put rules in place that align with their specific sport and ensure a level playing field. It seems like this is the more reasonable process.

There is a common misconception that Title IX as about sports, it isn't. It certainly had a big impact on women's sports but it's focus is much broader and sports is not even mentioned in the legislation.

What kind of comment is that? Since I follow NPR on Facebook, 50% of my news comes from that. https://www.npr.org/...nd-friendships-apart

"Exactly" is a strong word, but there's plenty of research on the growth in self-reported transgender status. Here's one example from the NIH. You can see skyrocketing rates in Figure 3. The speculation is that people who would have hidden it and are now less likely to hide it.



She's probably intersex. A reasonable speculation is that she her body went through the equivalent of male puberty given her particular intersex characteristics. You know that's what I meant, yet chose to play word games. Don't do that!



I have issues with this from an ethical perspective. If someone were taking puberty blockers purely for medical and well-being issues, then fine. My concern is when people start taking them primarily to meet sports governing body rules. Like Caster did. There's an inherent ethical/moral conflict of interest with sports governing bodies getting involved with drugs that have very powerful physical and psychological effects.



13. Sounds like it's organized, competitive team sport. Could be high school even. As I pointed out there are issues with allowing transgender people to play organized competitive team sports as one gender, then suddenly pull the carpet out from under them later. Like when going from middle school to high school. Or high school to the NCAA. Is allowing transgender people to have a consistent set of peers and rules reasonable? That's part of the job of a sports governing body - providing consistency.

For "playground/PE sports" - that's entirely different. But that doesn't sound like what the issue in the OP is about.




I disagree. I spent 10 years as a women's youth coach. For my lifetime I've been a fan of women's sports. It's a fair and unavoidable observation, I think, to point out that the very, very best female athletes would get regularly crushed by even mediocre athletes who went through male puberty and aren't on blockers. (again, I have concerns about blockers for sports purpose).

The progression of women's sports from the ridiculed fringe to the current situation where NCAA women's basketball championship game was *more watched* then men's NCAA or NBA championship games was a long, arduous more-than-100-year battle.

Casually dismissing it as "totally irrelevant and a distraction" ....oof.

Surely you're being intentionally dense.

A trans man is highly handicapped against actual biologic males whereas a trans woman has a significant biological advantage over biologic females. I don't think people care about a trans man playing sports against men where the trans person has an inherit disadvantage. When the trans person has a significant biological advantage, obvious protest exists.

A trans man is likely on supplemental testosterone, which would disqualify from competing under most regulated competition rules so I don't think this is a major issue.

A reasonable assumption, however some of these state bans do not take that into account. Texas, Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee, South Carolina ban all trans athletes. There are also some sports, like gymnastics, were a M2F competitor is at a disadvantage.

I’m not sure why it’s difficult for some posters to understand the context of threads. This comment was made in thread discussing trans athletes.

So with respect to sports:

The proposed consequence of a trans male competing is that they will most likely be disadvantaged against biological males.

The proposed consequence of a trans female competing is that they may not be allowed to compete in their desired category because they have a significant advantage over biological females.

Really? I understand then role center of gravity plays in certain movements. So I can see how beam is an issue. But Floor, vault, and maybe rings are all power-based and bars require a great deal of upper body strength.

Women do not compete in rings but if they did men would be better. Men would also be better at vault. Women are better on beam and perhaps uneven bars, men do neither. Floor might be a push.

Right I meant bars (uneven); rings was a typo, sorry. A lot of upper body strength.

Floor requires sprinting and jumping for skills on a spring-loaded floor. So the more power pushed into the floor means better air time.

Biological male would seemingly have an advantage on vault, too.

Not sure about beam.

If men participated in beam, the skills displayed would shift to be male-centric things. Probably men wouldn't excel in those crazy back bending moves centered on flexibiltiy. But would usher in some new moves around power to excel in the performance (think jumping higher and thus doing more acrobatic skillz on the beam).

Similarly, if men did uneven bars, the performances would level up on going higher, doing more aerobatics, and larger dismounts.

I don't buy the pov that women have an advantage in gymastics. I think if men participated in girl events, you'd see different things being displayed from men that you would from women to highlight their skills. It would just be different.

I think Slowguy was a collegiate gymnast and probably would have a hot take on it if he cared to.

.

This person is a small group which unfortunately is getting bigger. Given that desisting is the commonest trajectory extending puberty blocking drugs if fraught with problems. The tendency in Canada at present is to not question any adolescent who thinks they are not cis gender and get on with puberty blocking drugs and or hormones. In many cases one is affirming thoughts that likely will go away and not giving the child the chance to identify with their biological sex. If one even questions this approach one is labelled "trans-phobic".

Sensible countries like Finland and Sweden are either banning puberty blocks or restricting to exceptional cases

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Maybe they just want competition for their daughter to be fair. A conservative is just the person who will say it because they don't give a shit what the liberals will say about them, but a liberal needs to play to the base.

Neither Finland nor Sweden have banned puberty blockers. Desisting is not the most common trajectory for early adolescents who receive puberty blockers, in fact it is the exact opposite. The vast majority continue with their transition. There are similar numbers, 94%, for early adolescents who socially transition. The most common reasons for desistance of these groups is social, family, or church pressure.

Perhaps you are confusing the stats for gender questioning youth? There are high desistance figures for young, gender questioning, children (4-8) but children of that age are not given puberty blockers or hormones and are not considered transgender.

You really think that the politicians that are doing this because they care about women's sports? Seriously? You don't really believe that do you?

Many of today's "Conservatives" think big government regulation is the answer to anything.....as long as it might help them at the ballot box.

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

They didn't move away from surgical intervention on minors as it was already not being done. Contrary to what the right-wing politicians may promote surgical intervention on minors is extremely rare.

Edit: Earlier today Sweden passed a law making it easier for trans minors to surgically transaction, lowering the age from 18 to 16.
Sweden passes law lowering age to change legal gender from 18 to 16 (bbc.com)

None of these countries have put in place the extreme restrictions that some U.S. state have.

https://www.nypost.com/...oach-trans-kids/amp/

You're talking about changing legal gender. That's paperwork. Finland too has relaxed certain rules like those around sterilization requirements before transitioning. That's great, but we are talking about different things.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

No, I am not. The law passed yesterday in Sweden does more than just lower the age to change legal gender but it also lowers the age that a person can surgically transition from 18 to 16. It adds oversite as well, which I am all for.

As for your NY Post link. The "study" it refers to has been completely debunked by many experts like Dr. Meredithe McNamara from the Yale University School of Medicine and epidemiologist Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, who say the "study" is nonsense. If you are interested in a point by point dismantling of it

Fact Checked: New Problematic "Finnish Study" Actually Shows Trans Care Saves Lives (erininthemorning.com)

Given the history of the author I am not surprised
Dynamics within the anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience network | Southern Poverty Law Center (splcenter.org)
(5) Abusive Practices And Conversion Therapy Ties: The Right Latches Onto Finnish Doctor Kaltiala (erininthemorning.com)

The Leftist ideologues.

Liberal <> Leftist

Sure but at some point that line gets real blurry.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Not really....there are some very clear delineation points IMO....this being one of them

The President of the NCAA is Republican former governor. His predecessor is another Republican who used to be Chancellor of that noted leftist hotbed LSU.

The article you posted https://www.bbc.com/...orld-europe-68841275 says the opposite.



And in the UK, the final Cass report was released. https://cass.independent-review.uk/...CassReview_Final.pdf It is fairly critical of the gender-affirming approach to trans health care.

Bingo.

This x1,000

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I didn’t mean to characterize the bolded (above) extreme position as a “balance.” I was trying to say that I know of zero (0) liberals who would take the opposite extreme position, i.e., that the rights of trans athletes always outweigh the cis women’s rights in sports.

I think the Christian Nationalist movement pushes this frenzy, and reasonable people aren’t likely to stick with it to the bitter end. Christian nationalism is too ugly.

Hey, you are right.....for a change.

I misread that there are two laws that were passed. One that lowered the age for legal gender transition and the other removes some of the barriers for surgical transition, like requiring board approval, but keeps the age at 18. Argentina, Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Uruguay have similar laws.

Last Friday German also approved similar legislation, lowering the age to 14. No “expert” opinions or medical certificates will be required.

Germany: Landmark Vote for Trans Rights Law | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

I don’t think one has to be a diehard or public supporter of anything to be able to recognize right vs wrong.

Do we not think any of “today’s conservatives” have spouses that played sports? Daughters that play sports? Granddaughters? Nieces? Sisters?

There are any number of things I couldn’t care less about in terms of free time or dollars but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have be able to hold an informed opinion or recognize a pervasive issue within that world.

This is a growing issue that is a widely politicized one. Of course it’s going to be pushed and exploited. But that doesn’t negate the validity. Constituents elect their politicians. DSW spent and entire thread pushing back and used the messenger as his evidence and continues that theme into other threads. That is not evidence enough unfortunately.

Politicians gonna politicize. But that doesn’t mean the issues aren’t (can’t be) legitimate.

I’d say a male would have a general advantage on floor exercise and vault. Uneven bars only move a certain distance apart and high, and they are more flexible than a high bar (don’t handle heavier weight as well) so males would probably lose any power or strength advantage as they got bigger. There are some moves on balance beam that are just untenable for an intact male, and again, size might become a liability as they got older. But, they could offset that somewhat with added power.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I have heard some liberals either explicitly take the “yes, always” position, or something very close it. That position has no balance in it either. However, my impression is that percentage of people who take the “no, never” position vastly exceeds the percentage who take the “yes, always” position.

Wait a minute, you heard a person say, "the rights of trans athletes always outweigh cis women’s rights in sports" or something very close to that?? Really? Wow, that seems like a crazy thing that someone would say. How did that conversation even go?

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It seems remarkable that a liberal, who would traditionally support women’s rights, would utterly abandon women. It makes you wonder about such a person who purports to be a liberal.

But I suppose in the vastness of the world there are some people who fail to develop logical values to guide their judgements. Without the underlying values, it would be difficult, perhaps, to recognize that minority groups need not make enemies of each other to gain & maintain status. Balancing of rights between trans- and cis-women athletes enriches both. It’s a fundamental idea underlying diversity— it reminds me of when black and white workers combined their unions, which resulted in better wages and working conditions for both.

Agreed, except that l think that one does not need to be a liberal or a conservative to support human rights. It should be universal. In theory, it is in our constitution (with its amendments of course ).

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Extremists exist on both ends of the spectrum. Many people on this forum speak of the uber conservative religious right and how could they possibly do or believe XYZ.

I think this is somewhat the same. The smaller or more extreme the liberal minority the more support they will get even if it means support casted at the expense of other liberal groups.

I know quite a few people that operate with this mindset.

I don’t know that this should be particularly surprising. There’s a segment of progressive liberals who are consistently looking for or attracted to support for the newest marginalized group. And once a marginalized group starts to gain some parity with the rest of the world, advancement of their cause loses some luster.

Plenty of those particular liberals will look at the choice between a transgender kid trying to make a sports team versus a team of privileged white girls (because they will always frame it in terms of the extremes on either side), and it’s easy for them to choose the minority du-jour.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yes, I have heard people say that people can compete according to their gender, regardless of biological sex. I didn’t hear any complex balancing of interests. They just stated it as a basic premise. Not defending it. Just saying it exists, though probably relatively rare.

Is it really a growing issue?

When Utah passed it's law it had 75,000 High School athletes. Only one of them was M2F trans
When Alabama passed it's bill there were 190,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans
When Mississippi passed it's ban there were 107,000 High School athletes in the state. Not a single one was trans. None in High School, Middle School, or college.
The IOC has allowed Trans athletes for 20+ years. In that time there has been a single trans Olympian, who would no longer qualfiy under the updated IOC regulations.

The primary push behind these laws is politicians using trans people for political gain, it is not because trans people are taking over women's sport.

The correct path is for this to be managed by the federations. Big Government regulation is not the answer.

I will take your word for it that they exist, but guess I don't know any of these folks because I have never met a single one in my life. (Well, there was one that might have been a little bit close, but she turned into an anti-vax anti-Biden kook.)

But I talk with trumpers IRL every day at my gym. And, boy, do they like to talk about "the criminals on our border", or "the criminals in Ukraine", or "the criminals in the Biden family", and so on. Because, for them, the cause "du-jour" is what was on fox or newsmax that morning. It entertains me greatly.

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When did trans women start winning at youth and college levels?

Big govt got involved initially to protect women with title IX (for all avenues not just sport). So why would it now inappropriate for big govt to get invovled to protect them again?

They would probably say two things. First, you say “utterly abandon women.” They would say these are women.

Second, a premise of some liberalism is that we should be particularly protective of the least advantaged among us. In our society today, a trans woman who is substantially mocked and shunned by society has a tougher life than a cis gender woman who might wind up one place lower in the final standings. If you had to changes places, would you rather be the plaintiff in that lawsuit or one of the girls she finished ahead of?

So, if our society has a problem, you are good with big government stepping in for any and all such problems?

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When a male won a NCAA women's national title, it forced a response so that doesn't happen again.

I think most people would have assumed that something like the Thomas situation simply wouldn't be allowed to happen, that it must be a rule violation and surely they (sport governing bodies) wouldn't let an obvious male win a premier women's championship, but then it happened, and nobody with the sport governing body stepped in. I think there's sufficient reason to have generally lost trust in sport governing bodies such as the NCAA.

Do we now wait for it to happen again?

Edit: for social justice? Yea

That seems to be a highly unconservative approach. Would you then call yourself a liberal?

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This situation might be the "Title IX Loophole". I doubt 50 years ago that people thought they'd have to rigorously define what a woman was... You can fix the loophole by increasing the strength of the legislation, or by deleting it altogether. Seems like most people would prefer the former.

You are giving far too much credit to one person. Most of the were passed before Lia won anything. Most of the sporting federations had been working on updates to their transgender policies for years before they finally announced them. These were not overnight decisions.

As a liberal, I love the law. I love the development and implementation of thoughtful, balanced laws. If anarchy is rejection of laws, then that’s not my cup of tea. However, I do not like jackasses making laws and engaging in jackassery. That’s where I draw the line.

Why are you so concerned about how people label themselves politically?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

One person changed it from a relatively obscure issue to a front page problem.

When title IX was passed there was a large, well-documented, disparity between the treatment, and resources, available to women in federally funded education. There was only one path to addressing the issues that Title IX addressed. Contrast that to the "protect women's sports" campaign. In most states there were no trans athletes and there was well established path, the sporting federations, to address sports related rules and policies.

In my personal life, I do not concern myself with this, I hold positions on a case-by-case basis. But on this forum, it seems that labels are used super often (left, right, liberal, conservative, etc.) and tribal affiliation is what is king. So I wonder, with people here that do feel they are conservative (or whatever), how they wrap their heads around taking a position that is diametrically opposed to their tribal affiliation.

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Going from 1 in 1,000,000 to 3 in 1,000,000 is also a skyrocketing rate, but still small.

Here is what you said:


You claim if the numbers are small, it could be given a pass. Since you are saying they are too large to be given a pass, what are the numbers then?

You can’t say small numbers could be given a pass and then claim the numbers are too large to give a pass without knowing the numbers.

I would respectfully disagree. I think most people on this forum hold a wide range of opinions and are fairly moderate. Yes, we have our diehards on both sides of the political spectrum, but I certainly wouldn't think a poster like Yeeper falls in to that category. I don't believe he is someone who goes around blindly championing conservative values, their party or their leader at all.

I think those labels are more often used like you just did. It's not people self identifying with their tribe, it's others labeling people they disagree with so it's easier to dismiss them.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

You think conservatives are against all social justice and protections? And you think if I’m in support of some govt involvement im a liberal?

Again I repeat you have a warped view of politics.

Perhaps you are right. But I see so much of the 'attack the messenger' (the messenger, being a poster on this forum, not some random politician) strategy used here, that I assumed it was all about tribal affiliation. Unlike you, while I do observe some variation in people's positions, I also see a lot of focus on the LR messenger and their perceived tribal position.

But maybe this is changing? Not sure.

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Once you put them on puberty blockers you have changed the whole ball game. You have likely affirmed their choice to transition with a therapeutic intervention. You don't know if the would have desisted without the puberty blockers. Given a high majority desist if not put on puberty blockers we very well may not be helping and may well be harming.

Here in Ontario I am seeing kids being put on puberty blockers with minimal assessment and deficient mental health support otherwise. Our locals transgender kids clinic sent out a letter advising family doctors to just put kids on puberty blockers while they are awaiting assessment "because the wait times to get seen are very long."

I spent a small rotation in the transgender assessment unit 35 years ago in Toronto. The guy who ran it got slandered out the the job maybe ten years ago because he raised concerns about kids being transitioned etc. They had to pay him a settlement and he refused a non disclosure agreement. The dialogue about this in Toronto at least was and is pretty toxic.

Some boy at 12 who wants to run cross country with girls while on puberty blockers doesn't bother me much if at all.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

He’s just interested in people’s views and having conversations 🙄

No, I am asking you. In what cases do you support big govt intervention? Social justice only? Or other areas too?




It is all about attacking the messenger, eh?

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