Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 17:20

Post #76 of 211 (456 views)

Yeeper wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Again, its not difficult in any way. Just trying to understand the nuances of different people's views. Is that OK with you?

So you’re saying it’s worthwhile for me to try to understand nuances of people’s views on how many outs they think baseball should have? What’s your opinion if everyone in the stadium got together and agreed that there should be 5 outs?

Should we care if some people in yhe community felt that the men’s and women’s high school soccer team should share players for matches?

It is impossible for me to decide what you (or anyone) feels is worthwhile to understand in baseball or soccer. That's your call.

More on topic, you are ok if trans girls compete with biological girls at certain ages but not at other ages. But other people here feel that trans girls should never compete against biological girls at any age. So there is not a lot of agreement even among people with similar political alignments. Not sure l am succeeding, but l am trying to understand why.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 17:24

Post #77 of 211 (452 views)

chaparral wrote:

synthetic wrote:

chaparral wrote:

synthetic wrote:

Puberty blocking hormones do not make the penis shrink into a clitoris and testicles / sack fully disappear...

What exactly do you think a cross country race is?

some girls were essentially bikini bottoms for running...

Are you demanding 12 years run in bikini bottoms? Because I don’t think we should require that.

did she just grow 1 year younger? next year she is in highschool where they start wearing that stuff..

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 17:46

Post #78 of 211 (445 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

It is impossible for me to decide what you (or anyone) feels is worthwhile to understand in baseball or soccer. That's your call.

You’re being obtuse here.

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

More on topic, you are ok if trans girls compete with biological girls at certain ages but not at other ages. But other people here feel that trans girls should never compete against biological girls at any age. So there is not a lot of agreement even among people with similar political alignments. Not sure l am succeeding, but l am trying to understand why.

You are making it seem like there is so much disagreement and that the disparity between those two scenarios means we need to go back to the drawing board. In fact it’s the opposite: there is a lot of agreement and a reasonable solution has many of the opponents to trans women in women’s sport disagreeing on one detail with regard to age. And I think that’s a reasonable place to be.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 17:56

Post #79 of 211 (443 views)

Yeeper wrote:

You are making it seem like there is so much disagreement and that the disparity between those two scenarios means we need to go back to the drawing board. In fact it’s the opposite: there is a lot of agreement and a reasonable solution has many of the opponents to trans women in women’s sport disagreeing on one detail with regard to age. And I think that’s a reasonable place to be.

Not at all, not "so much" disagreement. And your age position on trans girls seems fairly reasonable, but it appears that others here disagree with you. But it's puzzling why.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 18:16

Post #80 of 211 (435 views)

DSW:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

So there is not a lot of agreement even among…

Also DSW:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Not at all, not "so much" disagreement.

🤦🏻‍♂️ Your own words.

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

And your age position on trans girls seems fairly reasonable, but it appears that others here disagree with you. But it's puzzling why.

Really? It’s puzzling? You yourself have been involved in many of these threads on the topic and the rationale isn’t anything new.

Some people believe pre-pubescent males don’t possess an unfair advantage and thus don’t see a need to restrict. Yet others may simply want to draw a hard line to keep it clean and say no biological males at all, no matter the age.

It’s not that puzzling; it’s quite straightforward. You simply don’t want to apply yourself to the discussion in order to play the “thoughtful intrigue” game.

Can’t remember your own posts and then playing the ignorance card: Not doing this again tonight. I’m out

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 18:29

Post #81 of 211 (452 views)

Yeeper wrote:

DSW:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

So there is not a lot of agreement even among…

Also DSW:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Not at all, not "so much" disagreement.

🤦🏻‍♂️ Your own words.

Of course there is disagreement. But even in your quotes above, it is totally clear that l never used 'so much disagreement', that was a phrase you generated on your own. But, in the end, discussing the degree of disagreement is just a semantic exercise.

Quote:

Some people believe pre-pubescent males don’t possess an unfair advantage and thus don’t see a need to restrict. Yet others may simply want to draw a hard line to keep it clean and say no biological males at all, no matter the age.

No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this, if fairness to competive girls/women is the main motivation here. But perhaps it's not the real motivation.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [ike] [ In reply to ]

Apr 17, 24 18:45

Post #82 of 211 (448 views)

ike wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Yeeper wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

velocomp wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

velocomp wrote:

One thing to note is this was a local race and the girl in question it said had been identifying as a girl since I think I read 3rd grade. People in the community probably knew her.

So, if people in the community knew her, not sure what the means to you. Does that mean that you think she can race, or cannot race? (with girls)

It doesn't mean that I think anything. It means that people in the community may support her, or they may be saying it's time to compete with her biological sex. Maybe they have seen her beating all the girls easily now as compared to a year or too ago. Maybe they accept her and don't care. It's the community and people in general that matter.

I agree that people matter. But if (hypothetically) they accept her and don't care, then should it be ok for her to race? Or not? Do community wishes override other concerns?

If there are constructs in place then those constructs need to be respected. Different rules and guidelines exist for recreational events, competitive events, school events, town events, non-sanctioned races, sanctioned races, etc etc etc.

The answer to your question is whatever rules are agreed long ahead of time must be respected and adhered to by whomever is voluntarily participating in said event. Regardless of how the community feels.

Why is this difficult?

Not difficult in any way. Just trying to understand the nuances of different people's views.

You know sports exist. You’re familiar with sports. You understand there are different levels of sports. So you understand sports operate within an organization that sets rules and guidelines.

Unless the town gets together for each cross country meet and takes a straw poll the day of each event to decide what rules to abide by that day then you understand that there is some governing body that sets the regulations/rules/guidelines in accordance with any number of variables. The community’s opinions don’t fucking matter. Nothing matters except for the rules that are already in place. If the community wants to change those rules then they need to go through the proper channels to tackle that problem.

This is a simple equation. You do seem to be making it difficult.

This may be tangential to the discussion you’re having but, the Fourteenth Amendment and Title IX are not at the race director’s or local community’s discretion. We have to decide whether and how those federal laws protect trans women’s desire to compete with cis women. If the answer is that they do provide some protection — a hotly debated point — then that constrains what the race director or local community can do (at least in the case of a government-sponsored race).

The mere fact you have to use the modifier "trans" actually tells you all you need to know.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:16

Post #83 of 211 (391 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:26

Post #84 of 211 (385 views)

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [trail] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:32

Post #85 of 211 (379 views)

trail wrote:

chaparral wrote:

Why would you block Caster? Aren’t all high level athletes like that genetic lottery winners anyway?

The gonadal hormone axis and male puberty are likely the primary differential between male and female athletic performance. And it's not a small differential. Not small at all. The large differential in performance due to gonadal hormones is a very large part of what led to the creation of women's sport.

To suggest it's just like me not being in the NBA because Lebron got a better roll of the dice, is, I think, disingenuous.

I'm in agreement with you.

Here's something to consider about the genetic lottery and how it applies to sports. A lot of times rules are put into place to handle the exceptions in order to keep the competition competitive. A lot of rules were changed, for example, when Wilt Chamberlain was scoring 50 pts a game and grabbing close to 30 rebounds early in his career.

Likewise I'd imagine if there was some genetic anomaly that allowed a fighter to shed an extra 30 lbs of bodyweight before weigh in such that a 200lb fighter was able to fight in the 170lb division, they'd figure out a way to change the weigh in rules (I'm talking about an additional 30 lbs compared to what they already cut).

I think at some point trans women are going to have to accept that they are trans women. I think it would be much healthier for everyone involved than to pretend that we don't notice and that the transition never actually happened.

If trans men can accept the consequences for transitioning, why can't trans women?

PS - I find it a little odd that someone who is a woman on the inside REALLY needs to play sports, while someone who is a man on the inside is disinterested in sports.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:33

Post #86 of 211 (378 views)

BarryP wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Barks&Purrs wrote:

I know of exactly ZERO liberals who think there should be no legal protection for cis girls and women in sports.

Really? This surprises me. There seems to be a pretty big push amongst the left to fully accept trans women as women in all aspects. To do so means acceptance in the change rooms, in competition, on the podiums etc.

I feel like if it weren't liberals pushing this so hard it wouldn't even be a discussion.

Quote:

I’m a very liberal liberal and I wholeheartedly and unreservedly agree that some protection of girls and women is required by our laws as well as general notions of fairness and good sportsmanship.

Just curious to dig a bit deeper here. As a very liberal liberal, and a woman, what are your personal views on what protections should be afforded to women to protect fairness and good sportsmanship? If you could wave a magic wand and create a set of rules or standards to include trans women yet protect cis women in sports, where would that line be?

Lia Thomas "won" a national championship in women's swimming. Now while I can't say for certain that it was liberals who allowed this to happen, can't we deduce that through a process of elimination knowing full well it certainly wasn't conservatives?

But there are conservatives on this very thread that support letting prepubescent trans girls compete with similarly aged biological girls, so I do not think your 'process of elimination' approach is valid here.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:34

Post #87 of 211 (378 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The group that has been pushing this topic have been right wing legislators who think that demonizing trans people will help them politically.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:38

Post #88 of 211 (373 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Nutella] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:41

Post #89 of 211 (370 views)

Nutella wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

The group that has been pushing this topic have been right wing legislators who think that demonizing trans people will help them politically.

Right wing legislators insisted that lia Thomas be able to compete against women as if she possessed no advantages from having grown up a male?

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:42

Post #90 of 211 (367 views)

BarryP wrote:

I think at some point trans women are going to have to accept that they are trans women.

Careful about generalizations. Many trans women need zero "splaining" about what they "have to accept." Not all trans women are advocates for trans women playing in female sport. Case in point celebrity Jenner. I don't know the ratios - not sure it's been polled. But none of the trans women I know personally are activists in that regard.

And many who are advocates for trans women in women's sport aren't trans.

This is important in viewing trans people as human beings vs. caricatures. The media and social media barrage of smug/masculine Lia Thomas poses is not helpful in this regard - intended to provoke emotional response and a tendency for "Lia smug face" to crystalize in some people's minds as an exemplar of "transgender."

Last edited by: trail: Apr 18, 24 7:43

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:43

Post #91 of 211 (365 views)

AutomaticJack wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

it is a sad state of binary american politics you have to accept this thinking to be a liberal. you either are all in, or on the opposing side...

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:49

Post #92 of 211 (361 views)

AutomaticJack wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

I am one of the strongest trans allies on this board and have been clear that I think that with most sports M2F trans competitors retain a competitive advantage. Most folks that support full inclusion are doing so because they feel that trans people should treated with dignity and respect and not fully understand the complex biological factors.

The courts are making those decisions confirm that the legislative path was the incorrect one. This is a matter best addressed by sporting federations, like every other rule in sports.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:52

Post #93 of 211 (358 views)

synthetic wrote:

AutomaticJack wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

it is a sad state of binary american politics you have to accept this thinking to be a liberal. you either are all in, or on the opposing side...

I've been pro gay marriage, pro choice, and in favour of gun control for pretty much my entire life. I hold a lot of liberal views.

That being said, I've been called out for holding "far right views" more than a few times for pushing back on some of the nonsensical points of the current liberal agenda. In my opinion, the left has really lost its way.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [trail] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:53

Post #94 of 211 (357 views)

trail wrote:

BarryP wrote:

I think at some point trans women are going to have to accept that they are trans women.

Careful about generalizations. Many trans women need zero "splaining" about what they "have to accept." Not all trans women are advocates for trans women playing in female sport. Case in point celebrity Jenner. I don't know the ratios - not sure it's been polled. But none of the trans women I know personally are activists in that regard.

And many who are advocates for trans women in women's sport aren't trans.

This is important in viewing trans people as human beings vs. caricatures. The media and social media barrage of smug/masculine Lia Thomas poses is not helpful in this regard - intended to provoke emotional response and a tendency for "Lia smug face" to crystalize in some people's minds as an exemplar of "transgender."

Very true. Most trans people I know do not care about this topic and wish it would go away.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:54

Post #95 of 211 (354 views)

synthetic wrote:

AutomaticJack wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

it is a sad state of binary american politics you have to accept this thinking to be a liberal. you either are all in, or on the opposing side...

It is a sad state of your news sources that you believe such a bullshit claim.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 7:58

Post #96 of 211 (348 views)

No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this
---
I'm not sure what you are expecting here. Are you expecting that there's going to be 100% agreement on the topic of trans MtF in sports, on either side of puberty?

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 8:04

Post #97 of 211 (342 views)

synthetic wrote:

AutomaticJack wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Exactly. If it's not very liberal liberals pushing this... Who is?

To be truthful, I really don't know. I'm pretty liberal in most of my thinking and this is a no brainer to me. I shake my head at some of these decisions. I have a lot of friends that are also pretty liberal thinking, and as far as I know, none of them think this is a good idea or fair to actual women. Yet it keeps happening, courts keep making strange decisions, and people on this board keep defending some of those decisions.

it is a sad state of binary american politics you have to accept this thinking to be a liberal. you either are all in, or on the opposing side...

Can you cite some support for that assertion? I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. While I know some liberals who support broader inclusion of trans women in women’s sport, I don’t know any who would declare someone to be a conservative merely because they didn’t agree.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 8:05

Post #98 of 211 (340 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this
---
I'm not sure what you are expecting here. Are you expecting that there's going to be 100% agreement on the topic of trans MtF in sports, on either side of puberty?

No, I do not expect that.

But it is interesting to me that, even among conservatives, there is considerable disagreement on how to deal with trans athletes at each stage. It seems to call into question why small government folks feel that the "big bad government" needs to step in with blanket laws and bans, vs letting sports governing bodies set the rules for their own sports.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 8:57

Post #99 of 211 (315 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

No, l do not understand why folks disagree on this
---
I'm not sure what you are expecting here. Are you expecting that there's going to be 100% agreement on the topic of trans MtF in sports, on either side of puberty?

No, I do not expect that.

But it is interesting to me that, even among conservatives, there is considerable disagreement on how to deal with trans athletes at each stage. It seems to call into question why small government folks feel that the "big bad government" needs to step in with blanket laws and bans, vs letting sports governing bodies set the rules for their own sports.

Is it actually interesting that a large group of people that reside on a wide political spectrum and come from different backgrounds and experiences have different views on how to deal with trans athletes?

Secondly, I'm not sure if sporting governing bodies is the right tool to use for this job as they can be subject to a lot of pressure, fear of cancellation etc. I feel like it is that fear, not necessarily good governance or fair policy, that allowed for things like the Lia Thomas situation in the first place.

Maybe we just need to allow time for the sporting federations to figure it out on their own, but I feel like their starting position was governed by fear, and now they are course correcting due to the blow back they have been receiving.

Maybe that's just the correct process slowly running it's course, and that course doesn't get figured out without the push and pull of various groups weighing in and landing somewhere in the middle, where ultimately nobody is satisfied :P.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: The intersection of trans, youth, and sport [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Apr 18, 24 9:06

Post #100 of 211 (308 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Secondly, I'm not sure if sporting governing bodies is the right tool to use for this job as they can be subject to a lot of pressure, fear of cancellation etc.

I totally agree that sports governing bodies are not perfect (actually, far from it), but do we really want federal or state governments weighing on things like this? First, the rules they come up with will be totally inconsistent in different jurisdictions. Next, they will expand their powers and will want to manage the use of disc wheels, what hockey sticks should be made of, how revealing swim suits should be, what the diameter of soccer balls should be, how age groups should be decided, the list will be endless. Finally, if we don't let sports governing bodies decide the rules for their owns sports, who instead (that is better qualified) will we be asking to do this? Certainly not politicians, some of whom barely know the difference between a volleyball and a basketball.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.