But it is interesting to me that, even among conservatives, there is considerable disagreement on how to deal with trans athletes at each stage.
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So, what I think you are saying is that you expect all of the democrats to agree with the rest of the democrats and the pubes to agree with the rest of the pubes with no disagreements on philosophy in the ranks?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

There is no monopoly on mob behavior here. The sports governing body are also subject to pressure and fear of cancellation from the "other" side. Mobs of angry parents hyped up by Fox News showing Lia Thomas smug-face constantly showing up at meets. Lawsuits from AGs under pressure from constituents. Angry lawmakers introducing brute force blanket bans. Outside of sports, seemingly half of America throwing a really weird tantrum at Bud Light because someone 99% of us had never heard of posted herself with a Bud Light can with her likeness on it on IG.

The risk here is just thinking if the outcome isn't what you want it must be because they were "afraid."

It's a tough time to be in those sports governing bodies or legislative bodies, for sure.

But I think they're moving in the direction you'd prefer. IOC in 2021, NCAA tightening up policy in 2022 (not in the way I'd prefer), just after "Lia." Track and field banning transgender athletes from international competition. The UCI in cycling dropping the hammer, effectively ending the women's cycling career of Austin Killups (second most popular in Fox News show-her-face-as-much-as-possible tactic).

The government can have my disc wheels when they pry them from my cold, dead hands!

Title IX was federal legislation. Was that government over reach? I feel like this issue aligns more closely with that type of legislation. This isn't an issue about the specific rules of the sport, it's about discrimination, protected classes etc.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Can you explain what you mean here? Because I don’t see the difference between trans men wanting to compete with men and trans women wanting to compete with women. What are trans men accepting that trans women are not?

Also these same rules are forcing trans men to compete with women in high school sports, even wrestling:

https://www.usnews.com/...h-school-girls-title

Also, can you explain what this means:


Are you saying that there are no trans men wanting to play sports?

No, I do not expect that.

But when there is disagreement in the ranks (in any party, on any topic), I think it is telling. And it is interesting to examine the area(s) of disagreement. Because sometimes looking closely at intra-group disagreements can better help one understand the issue and what might be the true motivations of the group.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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I don't think it was govt over reach because it really only applied to funding of universities (to the best of my knowledge).

I personally would be open to federal legislation with a few caveats. First, it would have to be consistent nationwide, not state-by-state or county-by-county (I am looking at you, Mr Blakeman). But the govt has to let sports federations first try to manage this themselves so it is fair to all athletes, especially women. But if sports governing bodies consistently fail at doing this (but we have to give them at least a little time to sort this out), then, sure, reasonable and fair federal legislation might make sense. Can we expect the current idiotic US congress to create reasonable and fair legislation on this hot-button issue? Unfortunately, I think it is doubtful, but maybe that will change.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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You have a warped view of what how you think politics should function .

I thought that you were "out", but now you're back?

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DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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What are the numbers exactly? Since you are saying numbers were small and are not now, you appear to know the numbers.


But caster was not a male through puberty.
So if someone took puberty blockers, they should be allowed then? If that is the line, then using puberty blockers should allow them to compete as a woman.


This is 12 year old cross country!

I have stated before that the line could very well be drawn in a different place for elite competition. So brining up Caitlin Clark on your part is totally irrelevant and a distraction.

The fact is that sports at these levels is just as much about belonging as it is competition. But if we force trans youth to be even more isolated and unable to participate as their full selves at this age, there is going to be serious harm. Not every girl can play division 1 basketball. That is not something that will isolate a young trans girl. Lots of girls that loved basketball are not going to be able to play at the college level.

Doping is also important for competitive reasons, should the same doping controls be used for all levels of sport?

I don't think the sporting federations positions were governed by fear. The NCAA's original policy was put in place 14 years ago, that was long before this topic became fuel for the outrage machine. 14 years ago they were likely ignorant of topic and skeptical that any trans athletes would actually participate. It was reasonable to be skeptical about participation as trans athletes are still extremely rare. In 2022 there were about 220,000 women competing in NCAA sports, only 34 of them are trans. When Utah passed their ban they had 85,000 athletes competing in sports at state high schools. Four of them were trans, but only one of the athletes was competing in girls' sports. In normal time Conservatives would be outraged at a state legislature that wasted time passing a law for one person.

14 years later there is a lot more information available that enables sporting federations to put rules in place that align with their specific sport and ensure a level playing field. It seems like this is the more reasonable process.

There is a common misconception that Title IX as about sports, it isn't. It certainly had a big impact on women's sports but it's focus is much broader and sports is not even mentioned in the legislation.

What kind of comment is that? Since I follow NPR on Facebook, 50% of my news comes from that. https://www.npr.org/...nd-friendships-apart

"Exactly" is a strong word, but there's plenty of research on the growth in self-reported transgender status. Here's one example from the NIH. You can see skyrocketing rates in Figure 3. The speculation is that people who would have hidden it and are now less likely to hide it.



She's probably intersex. A reasonable speculation is that she her body went through the equivalent of male puberty given her particular intersex characteristics. You know that's what I meant, yet chose to play word games. Don't do that!



I have issues with this from an ethical perspective. If someone were taking puberty blockers purely for medical and well-being issues, then fine. My concern is when people start taking them primarily to meet sports governing body rules. Like Caster did. There's an inherent ethical/moral conflict of interest with sports governing bodies getting involved with drugs that have very powerful physical and psychological effects.



13. Sounds like it's organized, competitive team sport. Could be high school even. As I pointed out there are issues with allowing transgender people to play organized competitive team sports as one gender, then suddenly pull the carpet out from under them later. Like when going from middle school to high school. Or high school to the NCAA. Is allowing transgender people to have a consistent set of peers and rules reasonable? That's part of the job of a sports governing body - providing consistency.

For "playground/PE sports" - that's entirely different. But that doesn't sound like what the issue in the OP is about.




I disagree. I spent 10 years as a women's youth coach. For my lifetime I've been a fan of women's sports. It's a fair and unavoidable observation, I think, to point out that the very, very best female athletes would get regularly crushed by even mediocre athletes who went through male puberty and aren't on blockers. (again, I have concerns about blockers for sports purpose).

The progression of women's sports from the ridiculed fringe to the current situation where NCAA women's basketball championship game was *more watched* then men's NCAA or NBA championship games was a long, arduous more-than-100-year battle.

Casually dismissing it as "totally irrelevant and a distraction" ....oof.

Surely you're being intentionally dense.

A trans man is highly handicapped against actual biologic males whereas a trans woman has a significant biological advantage over biologic females. I don't think people care about a trans man playing sports against men where the trans person has an inherit disadvantage. When the trans person has a significant biological advantage, obvious protest exists.

A trans man is likely on supplemental testosterone, which would disqualify from competing under most regulated competition rules so I don't think this is a major issue.

A reasonable assumption, however some of these state bans do not take that into account. Texas, Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee, South Carolina ban all trans athletes. There are also some sports, like gymnastics, were a M2F competitor is at a disadvantage.

I’m not sure why it’s difficult for some posters to understand the context of threads. This comment was made in thread discussing trans athletes.

So with respect to sports:

The proposed consequence of a trans male competing is that they will most likely be disadvantaged against biological males.

The proposed consequence of a trans female competing is that they may not be allowed to compete in their desired category because they have a significant advantage over biological females.

Really? I understand then role center of gravity plays in certain movements. So I can see how beam is an issue. But Floor, vault, and maybe rings are all power-based and bars require a great deal of upper body strength.

Women do not compete in rings but if they did men would be better. Men would also be better at vault. Women are better on beam and perhaps uneven bars, men do neither. Floor might be a push.

Right I meant bars (uneven); rings was a typo, sorry. A lot of upper body strength.

Floor requires sprinting and jumping for skills on a spring-loaded floor. So the more power pushed into the floor means better air time.

Biological male would seemingly have an advantage on vault, too.

Not sure about beam.

If men participated in beam, the skills displayed would shift to be male-centric things. Probably men wouldn't excel in those crazy back bending moves centered on flexibiltiy. But would usher in some new moves around power to excel in the performance (think jumping higher and thus doing more acrobatic skillz on the beam).

Similarly, if men did uneven bars, the performances would level up on going higher, doing more aerobatics, and larger dismounts.

I don't buy the pov that women have an advantage in gymastics. I think if men participated in girl events, you'd see different things being displayed from men that you would from women to highlight their skills. It would just be different.

I think Slowguy was a collegiate gymnast and probably would have a hot take on it if he cared to.

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This person is a small group which unfortunately is getting bigger. Given that desisting is the commonest trajectory extending puberty blocking drugs if fraught with problems. The tendency in Canada at present is to not question any adolescent who thinks they are not cis gender and get on with puberty blocking drugs and or hormones. In many cases one is affirming thoughts that likely will go away and not giving the child the chance to identify with their biological sex. If one even questions this approach one is labelled "trans-phobic".

Sensible countries like Finland and Sweden are either banning puberty blocks or restricting to exceptional cases

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Maybe they just want competition for their daughter to be fair. A conservative is just the person who will say it because they don't give a shit what the liberals will say about them, but a liberal needs to play to the base.

Neither Finland nor Sweden have banned puberty blockers. Desisting is not the most common trajectory for early adolescents who receive puberty blockers, in fact it is the exact opposite. The vast majority continue with their transition. There are similar numbers, 94%, for early adolescents who socially transition. The most common reasons for desistance of these groups is social, family, or church pressure.

Perhaps you are confusing the stats for gender questioning youth? There are high desistance figures for young, gender questioning, children (4-8) but children of that age are not given puberty blockers or hormones and are not considered transgender.

You really think that the politicians that are doing this because they care about women's sports? Seriously? You don't really believe that do you?

Many of today's "Conservatives" think big government regulation is the answer to anything.....as long as it might help them at the ballot box.

It is interesting to see Nordic countries moving away from hormone and surgical intervention and towards a therapy based approach in minors.

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Long Chile was a silly place.